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Old July 5, 2001, 20:38   #1
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"Civ 2.5?" from October 6, 1999
Since the term Civ 2.5 is being throw around and debated a lot lately, and since CyberShy asked who came up with this "stupid" term, I'd just like to take credit, since even if I'm stupid, I like to be good at it.

This article is from October 6, 1999...that's like 25 years ago in 'Net Years,' I think. This was before Brian left Firaxis. I've cut out some of the stuff that won't be interesting anymore (references to inside jokes at the time, etc.). But it's an interesting look at things from nearly two years ago.

Some have questioned: How can I (and others) possibly use this term when we haven't played the game yet? To which I can only say:

** Have you seen the screenshots (which I pray are just alpha graphic placeholder, but who can tell)?

** Have you considered the lively and frequent updates making it clear that all these vague ideas actually have some kind of details to them? I missed those, too.

** Have you heard the great news about extensive beta testing and that "We won't ship until it's ready!" stuff? Please post the link if you have one.

** Have you paid attention to this industry at all?

Still, if people disagree with me and consider me a misguided pessimist, I can accept that. Let's just say I hope my pessimism is misplaced. And there is a slight possibility *cough* that Firaxis is cleverly holding back the good information to highten our suspense, being the sly and subtle PR masters they are, of course.

The Article: "Civ II.V?"

Like many of you out there, I'm very interested in what the next Civ will bring us. Frankly, I've grown tired of the Civ build-lots-of-cities-and-attack-one-unit-at-a-time formula. Don't get me wrong. I'm bored because I've played CivI and II to death, which is saying something quite good about these games and the people behind their creation.

......

http://www.gamespot.com/features/sidlegacy

......

For those of you who skipped the Gamespot article, let me summarize: Brian Reynolds, not Sid Meier, created CivII. While eating [muffins] and sipping tea in England, Brian Reynolds somehow did the impossible: He vastly improved a Sid Meier game (without much help from Sid). Sid, who wanted to avoid mental illness, shrewdly opted NOT to try to top his own creation, leaving CivII mainly to Brian Reynolds, who succeeded brilliantly.

......

Here's what the safe money says: Make Civ2.5 --- put in some great graphics, put in a few things players have asked for and you thought up yourself (but don't fundamentally change the game whatever you do), and watch the money roll in. Oh, and it WILL roll in. Most Civers are junkies. They can't resist the urge to buy a Civ game, especially one that looks and plays even a little bit better. Safe money says, "Don't rock the boat, Brian." Hmmm. Tempting. You begin to realize that a Civ2.5 would be SO much easier to put together-and it's money in the bank. Yes, Civ 2.5 sounds great. And Civ fans rejoice...

Some Civ fans, that is. As I said up top, a Civ 2.5 just won't interest me. "But it has a 45 minute introductory movie that even Hollywood has nominated for an Emmy in a new category: Best Computer Short! 'Ely outdid himself!' says Entertainment Tonight." I don't care. "But the music is so good Capitol Records is releasing a music CD titled 'Civilisensational'! 'Briggs is a musical genius!' says the London Philharmonic!" Well, maybe I'll just buy the music. "But the A.I. is WAY better-the CPU only trades for empty cities 50% of the time! 'Pure programming genius!' lauds Susan Meier!" O.K., that one almost got me.

Ultimately, I don't think a Civ 2.5 interests Brian Reynolds, either. Brian never got the credit he deserved for basically putting Civ 2 together by himself. Think about that for a moment. The greatest game ever (well, many of us would say) was put together by Brian Reynolds. Sure, he built on a Sid Meier design, but what do people say? "You mean this masterpiece WASN'T made by Sid Meier? That's deceptive!" I can't imagine how much that must suck if you are Brian Reynolds. When is it gonna be Brian's turn, dammit?

So, does Brian really want to just seek out a Civ2.5? That's hard to imagine. He's just too young and too talented to accept that fate willingly. And, unlike before, people are starting to get the idea that Sid is actually out playing golf (he earned it, mind you-in fact, watch for "Sid Meier's Golf" one day in the future). Plus, Brian's got those suggestion lists put together at Apolyton and elsewhere. So many great ideas...so much potential...

......

Well, I'm not sure what we can expect from the next Civ game, but here's what Sid said when people pushed him to do Civ2:

Quote:
I really sensed a danger that I didn't want to get into this 'topping myself every time' phenomenon. I saw mental illness down that road. I said I am not going to get in the business of topping Civilization and then trying to top what comes after Civilization. There lies madness.
Well, you're in it now, Brian, so I say go down (or UP) fighting! Top yourself! Take Civ3 to an entirely new level! Show the world what you are capable of! This is it: The Civ Leagues! Besides, version 2 of the Apolyton list is coming to you soon, and that should make things so much easier. =)

Then again, that clock is ticking, and the quarterly financials just arrived...

I wish you the greatest success, Brian, whichever path you choose. If it matters, people know who made Civ 2 (but many are just still too shocked to talk about it in public). If creating Civ 3 ever causes you to start losing your grip, do what I occasionally do: Fire up Civ1, play for a few minutes, then fire up Civ2 and forget the world for a while. You might also try humming a few bars from "Revolution" (great Civ theme song, by the way). Helps me.

"You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world..."
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Old July 5, 2001, 20:42   #2
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And, unlike before, people are starting to get the idea that Sid is actually out playing golf (he earned it, mind you-in fact, watch for "Sid Meier's Golf" one day in the future).
HOLY GOD! I PREDICTED SID MEIER'S GOLF!

Markos, this HAS to be a news item! LOL!!!!
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Old July 5, 2001, 21:35   #3
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Yin I believe sometimes the younger crowd (30-0) expect to much from a game. This gaming industry is still very young. In 1980 there wasn't even a picture in a game.. And then Roberta of Sierra said to Ken one day (82-83), let's put pictures in a game and see what happens.

Hey TV came out for the public in 1947/8 and we did not have color until 1960s. Full color in 1967/8.
Beside we just went digital 2 or 3 years ago. And CDs games have only be around since 1993/4.
Movies has been around since the late teens/twenties, but until the other great person from Modesto, Ca. George Lucas showed up, the movies did not have digital or THX tect.
Keep in mind, I have been buying games since 1984, and I believe they have come a long ways. Maybe it will be Civ 5 or 6 before they get it right, but that does not mean, they are not trying to do it right this time.
 
Old July 5, 2001, 21:50   #4
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Well, I can see what you are trying to say. For my part, I had the first "home video game" of anybody I knew growing up. It hooked up to your T.V. and let you play Pong and shoot a bouncing white square with a big, plastic gun. Mind you, this was before the ground-breaking days of the Commodore Vic 20 and its tape drive (I think the whole tape held 4k or something and took about 5 minutes to load).

So, one of the reasons I have such high expectations is precisely BECAUSE I've been on this ride from the beginning.
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Old July 6, 2001, 01:09   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by yin26
HOLY GOD! I PREDICTED SID MEIER'S GOLF!
Yin
do us a favor, predict "Pirates 2" next time from Sid

P.S. Too bad that Sid still doesn't make sequals...

Last edited by Jeje2; July 6, 2001 at 01:14.
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Old July 6, 2001, 05:50   #6
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Quote:
I PREDICTED SID MEIER'S GOLF
WHAT THE F***
you're really infallable !
how could I ever have had any doubt about you and your wor... uh propheties Yin !
Please forgive me since I'm not worthy to argumentate with you !

Do you have any more propheties for us ?
If possible some positive once for a change

And uh, about the civ 2.5 term, it's not a stupid term at all, did I ever say so ? Have to tell you though that you're already behind ! Civ III has been promoted by some other yin-alike-idiot to civ 2.75. ( my ToT = civ2.5 will make it into the books ! Read my lips !)

Anyway, hereby I make the official prophety: When civ 4 will be announced we'll discuss civ 3.5 overhere ! (while it should be civ 2.95 at that time !)

CyberShy - part-time prophet
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Old July 6, 2001, 06:20   #7
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the truth is out!

read it in the civ3 section!
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Old July 6, 2001, 07:13   #8
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Re: "Civ 2.5?" from October 6, 1999
Quote:
Originally posted by yin26

Here's what the safe money says: Make Civ2.5 --- put in some great graphics, put in a few things players have asked for and you thought up yourself (but don't fundamentally change the game whatever you do), and watch the money roll in.
...
And Civ fans rejoice...
Well, I would rejoice, in fact...

I may be a conservative old fart, but I want a Civ game to feel, look and play like a Civ game. I don't want them to tamper with the fundamentals of the game! Much like I wouldn't want to have new rules of play at the beginning of each new football season - just bring in some youngsters.

I would be quite satisfied if the game would look fresh, would force me to develop new modes of play, would introduce new features and some unexpected novelties, would adress faults and generally feel like a new experience.

Don't get me wrong, it has to be a step up, i.e. it should take the concept further from Civ II than Civ II took it from Civ I. But Civ with altered fundamentals = a game like MOO, or MOM. Both are excellent games in their own right, who borrowed heavily from Civ and took the concept into new directions, but they were not Civ. And that is what I want Civ III to be - a Civ game.



BTW, that 'Sid Golf' prediction is really astounding
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Old July 6, 2001, 07:45   #9
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the truth is out!

read it in the civ3 section!
ROTFL! One of the funniest news I've ever read.
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Old July 6, 2001, 08:09   #10
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OK, how shall we all thank Yin personally for his work??


MarkG: Well done...
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Old July 6, 2001, 08:13   #11
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The whole thing is really disturbing now thanks to Markos. I don't think I'll sleep much tonight...
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Old July 6, 2001, 08:18   #12
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Originally posted by yin26
The whole thing is really disturbing now thanks to Markos. I don't think I'll sleep much tonight...
MarkG showed us a new meaning of "backstabbing", I suppose...
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Old July 6, 2001, 08:30   #13
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To rid myself of this vile curse, I shall predict something (as suggested) knowing full well that I must be wrong (right?):

...I predict that Sid Meier will NOT allow his name to be put on the box with Civ 3...

(...now if THAT turns out to be true, we can all suffer TOGETHER...)
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Old July 6, 2001, 14:18   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by yin26
Well, I can see what you are trying to say. For my part, I had the first "home video game" of anybody I knew growing up. It hooked up to your T.V. and let you play Pong and shoot a bouncing white square with a big, plastic gun. Mind you, this was before the ground-breaking days of the Commodore Vic 20 and its tape drive (I think the whole tape held 4k or something and took about 5 minutes to load).
Yin, I remember that one!
there was a game of Monopole (monopoly clone) and it took a half hour to load!
no. wait. that was on the c64.





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Old July 6, 2001, 16:13   #15
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Originally posted by joseph1944
Yin I believe sometimes the younger crowd (30-0) expect to much from a game. This gaming industry is still very young. In 1980 there wasn't even a picture in a game..


They surely do expect too much. I bought lots of games from 1973 to 1979. I expected a nice map (no random ones!!!!) - (avalon hill had cardboard, SPI had paper with subdued colors), some well designed punch out counters with historically accurate attack, defense and movement factors, some clearly written rules that would model the historic situation well without being too difficult to learn or too burdensome to play, and a die (couldnt do much without a die)

No music, no sounds, no AI, no scenario editor, no random maps, graphics limited to the map itself - no animations, 3d, or whatever - well, you get the picture.

I bought my first game in 20 years in 1999, simcity2000. then a few more including Civ.

No wonder i sometimes feel lost in the "gaming community" They seem to demand things I dont expect, and seem willing to overlook things (in the historical accuracy arena) that drive me crazy!!!! Its just a game - well of course - but what is a game(i think) , if not a model of some historical situation? Whats the point of it all? If i wanted good gameplay i'd play chess. (they met just down the hall from us "strategy gamers") I played 1914, kingmaker, napoleon at waterloo, etc because the historical realism, the modeling, gave an immersive quality that chess, risk, go, etc did not have.

I realize that others came to computer strategy gaming by a different path - via video games, FPS's, etc. Or they started playing a game like the original civ. They have a different perspective. I just ask you to bear with me and those who share my obsessions.

LOTM
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Old July 7, 2001, 00:19   #16
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That is actually scary.
I'll never (cor look at that sunrise skies totally pink) well wouldn't say never really you know it could happen. ummm excuse me but I'm too tired to think straight.

If you actually read the bit at the back of the civ2 manual ( every fanatic has probably read it 10 times like me) You'll find out that Sid Meier had nothing to do with it. And his name only appeared i the credits as original design.

Must go head just about to hit de keyboad
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Old July 7, 2001, 03:51   #17
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Old July 7, 2001, 05:48   #18
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I dont think we should over-emphasize the everyday presence of Sid Meier. Instead I think most of the early basic game-design decisions & sollutions have already been made - and also, that most decisions where made in coallition with all the team-members. Sid perhaps played/playes the role of the inspiring game-design leader, but still - I really think they work as a team with this project.

As for the "Sid Golf" project - I really dont see the problems here. Firaxis is a small company, and they must put their eggs in several baskets, to be sure. Developing a strategy-building game about Golf has never been done before, and Golf is afteral a very popular sport. The advertisment-possibilities in Golf-magazines are great. Although I dont enjoy Golf myself, I can easily see why investing time & money in such a project make good sense.
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Old July 8, 2001, 01:20   #19
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Ralf:

I'm sure Firaxis agrees with your reasoning, but a number of small companies have made the same choice with DIRE consequences. While they have avoided putting all their eggs in one basket, they've also increased payroll and rent by orders of magnitude. In a sense, they HAVE to have two games coming out just to cover the bills. This must by default create room for split personalities and intense "negotiations" as to what resource will go to what game.

It's this kind of 'overhead creep' that puts companies in do or die situations. Frankly, I think they should have stayed small and focussed. Less money made but much less money paid out. AND, I believe, that tighter and more dedicated small group dynamic would have produced potentially much better games, albiet released on a much slower pace.

We'll see I suppose.
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Old July 12, 2001, 20:50   #20
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Dan's recent exuse for not updating the Website ("We have TWO games in production..." blah blah blah) seems to support precisely what I argued above. Too bad, actually.
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Old July 12, 2001, 20:57   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by yin26
Dan's recent exuse for not updating the Website ("We have TWO games in production..." blah blah blah) seems to support precisely what I argued above. Too bad, actually.
I don't know. I still would have to believe that the reason Dan has not updated the website in a while is that they have no real news to report. They are testing making changes and what not and are leaving the hype to the gaming magazines and fan sites.

I can't believe it really has to do with no time.

It can't take long to add a little blurb about what magazine has given a new review, which is at the very least what they should be doing.

This new civ3 site may be the reason, but I still believe that the biggest thing is that they have nothing new to put up so they aren't releasing anything. Hopefully that leads to a later release date. After all if October was still on the table it would be time to start cranking up the hype within the next week...
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Old July 12, 2001, 21:29   #22
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Oh, I agree with you totally. In fact, I've already lambasted Dan for his lame excuse(s). What I mean to say, however, is it seems the company as a whole is running around like crazy trying to handle two projects at once, so something as relatively "minor" (from an internal operations point of view) as the website gets more or less put very low on the priority list. That, in turn, leads to an inexcusable (from the fan's point of view) lack of or error-prone communication with the public.

Although it's a "what if" scenario, but what if Firaxis only had Civ 3 on its plate? I bet we'd have an outstanding website and much better screenshots to date.

Anyway, I'm sure Firaxis is more than happy to let fan sites and gaming magazines do all this work for them. They have never shown much saavy in dealing with the public at any rate. At least Maxis will show them how to make a vitual golf community...and there's always hope that somebody at Maxis will take a liking to Civ 3.
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