Automated Units..Who needs 'em?

[Avenoct]

Just curious as I never use them myself and really don't understand HOW to use them. I like when my needlejet runs out to defend a unit during the AI's turn, but any time I've automated another unit it just does something innappropriate like murder innocent citizens. Well, like patrol my coast.

I've heard though that units, esp. artillery?, can also respond off-turn as it were. Would someone care to lay down the manner and benefit of automating units?

-Smack

[Drago Sinio]

The only units I regularly automate are needlejets, after I have copters. I just set the needlejets on auto, its kind of fun to watch them fly around. Every once in a while they pop out and zap an enemy transport , or unit in the fungus, that I didnt even know was there. I think that when they are on auto, they share the AI's ability to "see" enemy units outside of sensor range.

Its also fun to drive a couple transports full of artillery over to your enemy, and set them on auto. They just start bombarding everything in sight. It seems that auto units have better odds when destroying terraforming, too. Not sure about that.

[NorthSwordsman]

I like that idea! There is nothing more annoying than an IOD filled with spore launchers sitting off one of your most productive bases zapping every enhancement in sight. :-). I think I'm gonna use that. I'm ashamed I didn't think of it first, lol!

[Ned]

I use automatic unit as follows:

When it comes to making tubes, I simply set the formers to automatic tubes.

When the tubes are done, I set them to full automatic. They then run around placing bunkers, sensors and enrichers as appropriate.

I always set sea formers on full automatic. They do a nice job.

I always start the game with the first colony pod on full automatic. It beelines to the best nearest place for a base. This is especially important for Sven.

I also place my scouts and sea foils on auto-explore. They do a real nice job of exploring, popping pods and dealing with worms.

When I want to protect my coast and dominated the seas, I build Gatling or Missile marine cruisers and set them on automatic. These nicely seek out and destroy incoming enemy, then proceed to enemy waters and do the same.

I set my initial Needlejets on full automatic as well. They fly to the sound of the cannons by themselves, across oceans and via Pact Bros bases to reach the enemy. You may then resume control if you desire. Otherwise, the nitwit AI simply picks off formers.

In fact, setting both Needlejets and Choppers on full automatic is a simple way of getting them to fly across planet to the enemy. Saves a lot of micromanagement.

I normally set captured bases on Build, after giving them their initial police unit. I then intervene if the AI does something stupid.

Finally, I use the goto and group goto command extensively for moving units to a destination.

All the above are automatic features that take a lot of tedium out of the game. In addition, there really is no substitute for automatic naval power. The AI can see the enemy, you cannot.

[Avenoct]

Aye, some good ideas! What about the difference between full auto and 'on alert'? I'm thinkng there is a state in which your defending units leap out to attack invaders on the Off-Turn as it were. I know needlejets scramble, but will other units do the same?

-Smack

[cbn]

Apparently interceptors will always scramble which can be bad if the thing is damaged and recuperating. A scrambled interceptor fights a battle against an attacking needlejet based on their respective WEAPON values. I would usually much rather even lose a cheap scout in the base and have the interceptor take out the jet on the next turn when it will defend with its armour( usually none so easy pickings)

I automate almost nothing. I do see the value in automating ships so they see ships that I cannot see. (Likewise for needles ). But terraforming ?--- Perhaps the formers do a decent job sometimes but I usually have very specific plans-- I might want to increase farms on rainy squares because gene splicing is coming, or gang terraform a few boreholes because I have chosen this base as an industrial center. Its the same for base builds. . . . Some bases get everything rushed and become high population research centers while others are destined to stay at size two or three and simply crawl enough minerals to be useful producing units

I will use the Goto command sometimes but have found that if moving takes several turns, it may better be done manually since plans for that unit may change. Perhaps I am a micromanager but the only times I used much automation was in SP games on huge worlds while "waiting to transcend". Then it is very useful since details don't matter and you are just going through the motions to victory

[Earwicker]

The only formers I automate are seaformers with "autoimprove home base". Otherwise they wander off, paying no heed to hostile territory. Clean reactors are helpful in this regard - when I'm done with a base's coastal squares, I send the crew off to the next site, re-home them, and set 'em loose. Keep an eye on them, though, they have a tendency to favor mines over tidal harnesses. Also, choose "no" for "automated formers can remove fungus". Removing sea fungus is usually a waste of time. Let the growing kelp do that for you.

For tubes, I use the "build tube to" command rather than letting the formers choose where the tubes go.

Late in the game, I wish there were a way to automate formers to do nothing but plant fungus. as the Gaians or Cult (or anyone non-FM with the Manifold Harmonics), fungus is the best stuff going for quick productivity.

And I'm going to try to automated artillery saboteurs approach . . .

[Avenoct]

Yes yes, all well and good to automate the formers. Remembering my first few games when I thought 'Auto-Improve Home base' was just the neatest thing. Really, even though they do a poo job of it, its still amusing.

What about military units in the off-turn? Is it only needles that scramble or do other units operate NOT during your turn?

Am I making my question clear enough? I'm wondering about the utility of the 'Alert Status' option, about air or ground patrols, and about automatic artillery fire.

-Smack

[Earwicker]

The alert function is useful for units guarding against mindworms. Like a scout patrol or rover stacked with some formers making your remote energy park. If something comes nearby they will attack in the off-turn. Useful. However, they don't distinguish well between what they can kill and what they can't -- might attack a visiting 4-3-1ECM unit and die bigtime.

The bummer about alert is that it counts as a move when cycling through the units (unlike Hold). If a patrol or alert unit discovers a problem, you might find that all other nearby offensive units have already "moved". So rather than alert, I like to use mindworms on fungus patrol: they'll stop when they find something , but won't attack unless you want them to. Aircraft will scramble whether in Hold mode or on Alert, so Hold is usually better.

As far as I've seen, Alert units only attack units in adjacent squares. A rover won't come running out of a base to defend a crawler two squares away the way an interceptor will.


Not sure about arty units defending nearby squares from bombardment.

[Ned]

I find alert to be worse than useful. The alert function generally does not work to seek out and destroy incoming enemy the way full automatic does. However, when you do need the unit to attack, for example, that incoming transport, you will find the units turn is over. That! is the problem.

Artillery on alert, for some godforsaken reason, does not attack enemy two square away the way it should. Otherwise, arty on alert just might be useful.

As to formers, land that is, they did a real nice job when they let you program the former to do one job, such as building tubes, sensors or roads. However, what we really need is to have the formers plant only trees or fungus or road/mine rocky squares. Any improvement to SMAC will have to give us a lot more control over formers.

BTW, on the sea formers, I didn't mean to imply that I ever put a former on full automatic. Just autoimprove home base.

Ned

[big_canuk]

iirc, arty in a base, (and maybe outside a base) protects units and improvements from bombardment from any enemy within range. It doesn't have to be on alert. I never use on alert. nothing or hold are my big 2. Patrol and auto, very seldom. I almost feel bad using auto, cause its kinda a cheat.

[Scipio Centaurus]

I use 'on alert' all the time. There are some advantages and some disadvantages. C'est le guerre!

In The Field
---------------------------
When I move a unit into fungus, I will frequently set the unit to alert after it has finished moving. This allows the unit to fight at full strength - as if the unit were attacking instead of defending. When on alert, my scouts will normally survive their early game off-turn encounters w/ the MWs they stir up when they move through fungus. If I do not set scouts on alert in that situation, it's a good bet they will be destroyed by the MW, instead.

The disadvantage is, you must remember to move the unit next turn as the game will not indicate that the unit is available for movement. I have been known to forget to move a unit on alert for several turns when it is far afield. There is no lost movement when a unit in the field is on alert... just left click on the alert unit any time during the turn and it becomes active immediately.

At A Base
------------------------
I don't see much downside to keeping all base combat units on alert. They get the combat advantage over units on hold during off-turn. There may be some benefit to keeping one garrison in a multi-unit garrisoned base in reserve (on hold), but that's about it. If the unit is the only combat unit in the base, it's very unlikely that I would ever move it out of the base to attack something... just too risky. I would rather let whatever is out there come to me, instead.

As far as losing movement, that is not a real problem after several combat units are garrisoned in the same base. Just place all the combat units on alert to get their off-turn defense. If during a turn you decide you need to move one or more of the garrison units out of the base, just click on the base. Then from the row of base units displayed at the bottom center of the base popup screen, right click on any any non-combat unit (even an active non-combat unit), or if there are no non-combat units, right click on one combat unit that you will leave in the base. From the unit actions popup menu, select activate unit. If the unit is on alert it will show no apparant change in its status - it will still be on alert. That's OK... now the unit has game focus. Just left click on any other alert unit in the base popup display row of units and that unit will immediately switch from alert status to active status. Activate all the units you want to move, close the base dialog and the last unit you activated should be flashing on the map display, ready for movement. Some could argue that this is a 'cheat', but I just think of it as reflecting normal rotation of guard duty among the multiple garrison units. Some units are ready to go at any given moment and some are not. If there is only 1 unit at the base you will not be able to move it until the next turn after you activate it.

The only drawback I have seen to having a base garrison on alert is when you move an alien artifact adjacent to the base. If the artifact doesn't make it into the base by the end of its movement, the alert garrison unit will abandon the base and move to the square with the alien artifact! And yes, the garrison will abandon a size 1 base with no other units in the base, even if a MW has just moved adjacent to the base. Don't ask how I know this, just take my word for it.

- Scipio

[Avenoct]

My oh my! Thank you thank you thank you! Some valuable information indeed. The few times I'd used full auto I just got quickly annoyed when my units strolled/swam/flew off willy nilly, but big_Canuk is correct, it is a cheat in a way. More on that at the end of the post. Don't read it if you don't want a hard to resist cheat!

I think what Scipio describes is also a cheat in a way, but all these things are documented and official parts of the game. They aren't even undocumented 'features' that Firaxis bestows upon us in hindsight. So yes, they make play easier, unfair if all players in a game don't know them, but really, they are like choosing whether to play with a full deck or a loaded deck. Personally I strive for the full deck but find it hard to resist things like the 'stockpile energy' 'feature'..mutter mutter...

I have a few questions and a comment for Scipio Centaurus:

1. You're saying that when you have multiple units stacked in a base it's possible to take them off alert and move them. ?
Am I right in thinking this is only when they didn't respond to an alert during the off-turn, that this doesn't work in any way for a stack or single unit in the field?

2. You're saying that by putting a scout on alert in the fungus it will face odds against the worm as if it were the attacker even when its the worm thats snuggled up to the scout on its turn? Important psi considerations abound there. I assume that after it 'attacks' the first worm, it'll face a second worm only as a defender.

3. Have you ever noticed that if you want to change orders for a former and say 'stop foresting, move here', you have to do so in the beginning of your turn? You cannot actually move the former once the turn has cycled through that unit. Is this the same with alert, ie, do you have to take the unit off alert before it has been 'cycled' through the upkeep?

4. The utility of having a unit defend with its attack strength is brilliant, but I just wanted to comment that there are times when you want to use your defenders for defense. Eg..ECM Plasma Garrison on alert runs down the road with its handweapons (clubs and sticks I imagine) and engages the missile rover. Ouch! Too bad the plasma garrison didn't stay in it's anti-rover bunker!

Back to big_canuk's comment. Auto is like turning part of your faction over to the AI, which we KNOW is a cheater! Not only do your units 'see' enemies in fungus, they see enemies coming 20 squares away!

I suspected this but was never tempted to even try it until I had a humongous SP game and I wanted to see what would happen if I turned my navy over to the AI. Well, they headed toward my friend Lal, and away from the closeby battle with pactmates Deirdre-Miriam-Yang. I thought 'Typical', and was dissappointed in what I thought was the poor utility of 'fully automate unit'. However, when I went to try to catch up with them and discovered that they were heading around Lal's coast I realized something might be up. I carefully followed them, which wasn't easy considering how tremendously huge the map was and that automated units' movement is not displayed for you during your turn. In the end I resumed control after losing half of them in a fierce naval battle at Deirdre's back door. They seemingly were taking the battle to her, dispersing her efforts to reinforce the Yang-Miriam Military Drone complex. Ok, that's anthropomorphising, but it was a great fantasy for a second. I'm sure that's all old news to ye old die hards, but I just thought I'd recount a rare happy moment for the AI.

On to what I do consider a cheat: Probe teams.

If you are playing on a map where you unlikely to guess the location of your enemies, automate your first probe team. It will beeline for the nearest factions base. Furthermore, you can use the view unit cursor to see exactly where it's heading and to what base exactly, as these are highlighted conveniently for you. I was disgusted. I stopped my probe team and gave it a good talking-to. However, I suspect that if you make peace with this first neighbor, additional 'Homing-Probes' will head for the next nearest faction. If you go to war with that first faction, additional probes continue toward it for probe actions. Just a suspiscion. Again, this is probably old news for most of you but I was aghast with amazement. Yet another 'feature' that I'll try to take out of my play-deck and probably keep instead...

-Smack

[Scipio Centaurus]

Responding to some comments by Smack.

I think what Scipio describes is also a cheat in a way, but all these things are documented and official parts of the game.

I seriously doubt that what I described is documented anywhere, but who has time to read instruction manuals anyway?

They aren't even undocumented 'features' that Firaxis bestows upon us in hindsight. So yes, they make play easier, unfair if all players in a game don't know them, but really, they are like choosing whether to play with a full deck or a loaded deck. Personally I strive for the full deck but find it hard to resist things like the 'stockpile energy' 'feature'..mutter mutter...

Most successful gamers' epitaphs should read... "He always made it a point to know one more rule than his enemies."

1. You're saying that when you have multiple units stacked in a base it's possible to take them off alert and move them. "

Yes... for all but 1 unit. Note: This 'cheat' does require some nuisance work on the players part - especially late in the game when you may have 20+ alert combat units to move out. If you have no non-combat units in the base, pick your weakest (most damaged) combat unit to stay behind. If you have a former, transport or some other non-combat unit in the base, it is possible to activate all alert combat units and move them out the same turn. This works for all classes of units, as far as I can tell (land/sea/air/non-combatant).

Am I right in thinking this is only when they didn't respond to an alert during the off-turn...

I don't think this will work for units that were actually engaged in combat during the off-turn. They may be stuck in the base till the next turn.

...that this doesn't work in any way for a stack or single unit in the field?

Not sure I understand. Units in the field are never 'stuck' in an open square due to being 'on alert'. Just click on any alert unit in the field that wasn't engaged in combat during the off-turn and it should activate immediately.

2. You're saying that by putting a scout on alert in the fungus it will face odds against the worm as if it were the attacker even when its the worm thats snuggled up to the scout on its turn?

That's the general idea. It works for non-combatants as well. Let me point out that I do not know the exact mechanism (or the exact combat odds) that is involved other than that it makes sense that a unit 'on alert' is better able to defend against attack than an identical unit that is not 'on alert'. Caveat: I have never done any statistical sampling to verify this. My empirical observations convince me that it is true, nonetheless.

For example: In a recent PBEM of mine I used an unescorted colony pod to pop a Unity pod within the first 5 turns of the game. Naturally the result was a mind worm boil - even though there was no fungus anywhere near the pod. I immediately placed the colony pod on alert and completed the rest of the turn. Next turn I discovered that the mind worm boil had been turned into fish-bait by the intrepid pitch-fork armed settlers of the CP, and the CP had only taken 10 or 20% damage. I even got to move the CP that same turn! Caveat: Don't try this with a CP after about 15 years into the game!

With average experience, a Scout unit can reasonably be expected to survive typical solo MW attacks for perhaps the first 30 to 40 years of a game. Eventually even the pre-boil MWs will begin to overpower your most experienced Scouts, though.

Most non-combat units can attempt to defend themselves this way in the very early game. Problem is putting them 'on alert' may use up their non-combat functionality the next turn, so it's better to provide combat escorts if you expect trouble.

Important psi considerations abound there. I assume that after it 'attacks' the first worm, it'll face a second worm only as a defender.

Not sure what happens there. I suspect you're right. Sounds like further observation and testing is in order.

3. Have you ever noticed that if you want to change orders for a former and say 'stop foresting, move here', you have to do so in the beginning of your turn? You cannot actually move the former once the turn has cycled through that unit. Is this the same with alert, ie, do you have to take the unit off alert before it has been 'cycled' through the upkeep?

I hadn't really noticed the particular effect you mentioned for formers, though I have heard that you can build all but 1 turn of a formers next terraform project - say 'lower terrain' for a sea former, then move the sea former next to your enemy's major coastal city with a couple of air and sea combat escorts and then have the sea former finish up its lower terrain project in the next turn, sinking the enemy's city beneath the waves. I think most rational persons would agree that qualifies as 'cheating', even though the game will let you get away with it.

As to the removing of alert status and moving base garrisons, that can be done any time prior to pressing TURN COMPLETE.

4. The utility of having a unit defend with its attack strength is brilliant, but I just wanted to comment that there are times when you want to use your defenders for defense. Eg..ECM Plasma Garrison on alert runs down the road with its handweapons (clubs and sticks I imagine) and engages the missile rover. Ouch! Too bad the plasma garrison didn't stay in it's anti-rover bunker!

The only time I can recall having seen alert ground units move out of a base is when an alien artifact finishes its movement in an open square adjacent to the base. Apparantly the garrison unit feels the defense of the AA is more important than the defense of the base. I have seen alert air and sea combat units move out short distances to provide close air support to friendlies or to attack nearby enemy shipping.

- Scipio

[Avenoct]

Brilliant! Thanks again Scipio. This news prompts an afternoon of playtesting for me. I'll post back here when I've studied this a bit, esp. the psi implications.

-Smack

[Iskandar Reza]

Originally posted by Drago Sinio
.......

Its also fun to drive a couple transports full of artillery over to your enemy, and set them on auto. They just start bombarding everything in sight. It seems that auto units have better odds when destroying terraforming, too. Not sure about that.

are you telling me arties on a transport can do that spore launcher-IoD remote sniping act? how? details please..

[death_head]

details, details...




As you can tell I really like this little guy.

[Fitz]

Um, you guys are kinda confusing me. There are two on alert status that you can use for units. L (alert/load) and Shift-L.

The L button, I know for a fact, merely holds until an enemy unit moves adjecant, then takes it off hold. You can take it off hold and move it at any time. If you move transport into a base with an L unit, it wakes up. If you move a transport "through" a base (with a draged path/goto) it picks up the L unit without even telling you (beware this). However, it will not attack enemy units on your off-turn.

The Shift L will attack. I know very little else about it.

Now, which one is who talking about? Some people sounded very sure that you lost the units turn with one (probably Shift L), yet scipio is refuting this. It sounds like Scipio is talking about the L command. Am I right?

[Scipio Centaurus]

I am refereing to the "SHIFT+L" command that places units 'on combat alert'. I only use the "L" command to load units onto transports. I was/am unaware that it had any other function.

Units on alert in the field enjoy the ability to become active and move at any time during a game turn as long as they have not been engaged in combat during the preceding off-turn (when the AI moves). Unfortunately units on alert in a base designated "(On Alert) Moved" can not be moved in the same game turn. Afte many hours of experimenting I discovered a cheat/trick/mechanism/ingenious technique (take your pick) to allow said base-locked units to become active and move out of the base in the same game turn. That chicanery is discussed in a previous post in this thread.

- Scipio

[johndmuller]

Fitz, I imagine Scipio is talking about the >Shift<>L<. As you were saying, the >L< is basically the Sentry command., where there are no machinations needed to wake up units during your turn. I take it that Scipio is describing a trick to wake up a >Shift<>L<'ed unit. I use the (unshifted) >L< command all the time and it's fine except for those unexpected sea voyages (the sometimes counterintuitive route selection of the transports can trap the unwary dragger) and the Locust thing (below).

IIRC, I've had trouble with both the >Shift<>L< and the (unshifted) >L< commands when applied to Locusts outside the base (no effect with (unshifted) >L< and with the >Shift<>L< the Locust zooming off in some odd direction - perhaps like "auto" might be) and have been forced to use the >Shift<>H< (10 turn Hold) to use a Locust as a lookout-sentry-guard (the 10 turn thing so I don't forget about it).

[Scipio Centaurus]

I think we need to find out, if there is any quantifiable difference in defensive combat when using "L" (LOAD UNIT) command for off-turn defense vs. using the "SHIFT+L" (ON COMBAT ALERT) command. If the unit defends equally well with either command then I am hard pressed to come up with any reason to ever use the "SHIFT+L" command. In fact, I can't think of any reason why that command would even need to exist.

My suspicion is that "L" defends no better than the "H" (HOLD) or active moving units defend, and that the main benefit of the "L" command is for loading units onto transports.

I believe (but cannot prove) that the "SHIFT+L" command offers actual improved defense during off-turn combat over the "L" and "H" commands or active unit defense.

Can anyone think of a good way to verify/disprove this theory?

- Scipio

[death_head]

Well, I've always thought trial and error was a viable option...

Your best bet is to run some Hotseat tests, where you can closely monitor all activities.

[Fitz]

As I understand it Shift-L (on-alert) attacks enemy units that move adjectent (within range?) of the unit. L (sentry) merely defends as normal (with armor) and if an enemy unit moves adjacent, it comes out it's hold status, regardless of whether or not it is attacked.

I'm pretty sure that Shift-L (on-alert) is within range, because I have seen units with that command in a base move out to attack an enemy, usually when it is the only defender, and to my great dismay.

Thus, I only use Shift-L when the unit is planning to guard a choke point and probably hiding in fungus. Occassionally, I will put it on a bunkered unit, but I prefer not to because I know it may move out of th ebunker to attack.

Scipio, I misread your post. I didn't realize you were talking about a workaround for already moved "on-alert" units. I saw the part about going into the base and clicking on all the units to activate them, and skipped everything else because that part is what I do to get all my L (sentry) units awake.

[Scipio Centaurus]

As I understand it Shift-L (on-alert) attacks enemy units that move adjectent (within range?) of the unit. L (sentry) merely defends as normal (with armor) and if an enemy unit moves adjacent, it comes out it's hold status, regardless of whether or not it is attacked.

That is a much more more satisfying explanation than my long standing assumption that there was some kind of off-turn defensive bonus for units using the SHIFT+L command.

I'm pretty sure that Shift-L (on-alert) is within range, because I have seen units with that command in a base move out to attack an enemy, usually when it is the only defender, and to my great dismay.

Yes. I think I can recall some of my alert penetrators racing out to pick off enemy units from time-to-time. And even less often, alert naval combat vessels have moved out to attack enemy naval units. I suspect the AI needs to see pretty favorable combat odds before it will move an alert unit out of a base to attack, though. I say that because I'm pretty sure my alert units don't move out to attack enemy forces at every opportunity and when they do it seems that they favor going after non-combat units. I will try to watch this more closely in the future.

I think alert interceptors will move out to fly CAP for friendlies, but not to attack.

I really can't remember seeing any ground units move out to attack, but it may have happened. Obviously the shorter the single turn move range of your alert unit, the less likely that you will ever see it move out of a base to attack something... unless you're doing something very wrong elsewhere in your empire.

I do know that alert garrisons may move out to escort adjacent AAs.

After you get multiple defenders in a base it's probably good to leave at least one unit in reserve (HOLD/SENTRY) just to avoid that ingenious 'garrison abandons base to wipe out enemy' tactic you described the AI selecting for use by your forces.

Can anyone comment on the behaviour of artillery, missiles and other exotic unit types when placed on alert?

I believe artillery does fire on enemy units, but it always happens so fast I never really pay attention to it.

Thus, I only use Shift-L when the unit is planning to guard a choke point and probably hiding in fungus. Occassionally, I will put it on a bunkered unit, but I prefer not to because I know it may move out of th ebunker to attack.

I usually never get enough spare combat units to scatter them about the countryside outside of bases. I do use the SHIFT+L extensively when exploring. If a scout moves into fungus I will usually set it on alert... never know when you might kick over a hornet's nest. Also if a unit pops a pod and gets MWs, I switch them to alert immediately, before the MWs can attack. Seems to dramtically increase the survivability of my explorers.

Scipio, I misread your post. I didn't realize you were talking about a workaround for already moved "on-alert" units. I saw the part about going into the base and clicking on all the units to activate them, and skipped everything else because that part is what I do to get all my L (sentry) units awake.

Yea, it's kind of curious that alert units in the field that didn't do anything during the off-turn can be activated and moved, but alert units in a base that didn't do anything during the off-turn can't 'easily' be activated and moved. Sauce for the goose... as they say. I can see an alert unit anywhere that actually engaged in combat, flew CAP or otherwise moved during the off-turn not being allowed to move during the regular turn, but if it didn't do anything in the off-turn it should be able to move normally IMO.

- Scipio

[death_head]

When I place missiles on alert, they rush out to attack the first thing they see. Every time. Consider this good or bad depending on what you intended them for.

As far as artillery, I've noticed that they just sit there, and sometimes don't shell enemies that get too close. Usually they do, though...

[Scipio Centaurus]

Thanks for the feedback death_head.

Whenever I build a missile it seems I've always got a target lined up for it (dang those feisty AI factions!), so I never get any chance to place missiles on alert.

Yea, like I said if there's any defensive artillery fire going on, it happens too quick for me to notice it. From time-to-time I'll see a message about a failed artillery bombardment near one of my bases when enemy troops come calling. Artillery bombardments against units never fail to hit when you are attacking, do they? They may not do much damage to the target, but they always hit it. I know you can miss entirely when you shoot artillery at terrain enhancements. I think defensive artillery fire against units can also completely miss the target occaisionally.

- Scipio

[Avenoct]

Ok, I did do some testing, extensive, inconclusive, and definately not scientific (though science is my background).

Conclusions first:
'On Alert' acts differently in different circumstances. (Duh, but that's really all I know).

Also if a unit pops a pod and gets MWs, I switch them to alert immediately, before the MWs can attack. Seems to dramtically increase the survivability of my explorers.

If there is a Psi advantage, and it 'Feels' like there definately is, it's not properly displayed in Off-Turn responses. (qualified below)

'On Alert' units don't go out of the base on the off turn vs. units they'll have a stiff fight with (don't know if they will with good odds) with the exception that;

'On Alert' Air units act peculiarly all the time.

Finally, 'On Alert' units will display odd green potential movement paths out of a base or in the field, towards enemies or away from them and not use them, for reasons unknown.

Methods: In a nutshell I tested Gaians vs. University and Gaians vs. MW's. The Gaians had two bases and every tech. I even gave them the XE dome. Nonetheless, they ignored MW's untill they were actually attacked in the off-turn. The 'On Alert' units in the field and in the bases seemed to do about twice as well defending as the units I had sitting around with no commands. However, if they had an advantage it was not displayed. The psi-combat was 3:2 according to the combat display. I of course tried this with all different sorts of Psi-combatants and Planet Ratings from +1 to +6. I gave the university some nice hovertanks and choppers and whatnot, but that part of my testing was inconclusive.

Discussion:

I believe there is an unprinted Psi advantage to units 'On Alert' and Defending in the field or in a base. I don't know if there is a comparable advantage to 'On Alert' units attacking as I couldn't make that happen for the life of Deirdre. This supports the idea in the quote above.
I got a gravship to go out from base and pummel Zak about 6 squares away, but I'm darn sure it did this on my turn and not in the off-turn. Once it had killed Zaks hovertank I could do nothing with it that turn (of course). So I can't seem to get my units to Attack during the Off-Turn at all. Instead they respond as defenders in the off-turn, at least 'On Paper' in the combat display, or as Attackers at the beginning of my turn. They may be defending Weapon vs. Weapon, but it's not displayed that way, and hence, hard to test. The Psi mystery supports that they defend using their attack strength. Air Units. The choppers were the worst! They patrolled wildly, landing in the field even though they were On-Alert and not set to patrol! Noodles looped in crazed patrols. Only the Gravship seemed determined to take action in a meaningful way. My conclusion is that On-Alert-Air is really a throughback to TWA air-traffic-control methods.

More testing! But I'm not the person to do it. I'm easily fatigued from a major PIA factor in setting up the tests.

A couple comments: One, I don't see units attacking in the off turn at all yet. Rather they seem to be acting at the beginning of my turn...someone test that! Two, I'm having difficulty seeing the utility of OA units in the base unless they really are defending with attack strength and/or are operating in the off-turn. They don't seem to go after units in the off-turn, so I'd rather just control them myself if that's true. Three, what's up with airpower OA? Four, why do OA units send out little 'feelers' for movement and not take them? What are they for anyways? Watch closely (easiest is to stack a whole bunch so you have time to catch it). Five, if anyone cares to describe an easier test, I'll help, but I've not got the knack for setting up the parameters yet.

Happy Crawlering! (Psi-crawler on alert),

Smack

[Scipio Centaurus]

OK...

I placed 10 very green PK scout units in isolated land squares on a random map (clear terrain) and placed a rogue hatchling MW next to each scout. After some messing around I finally got the MWs to attack each adjacent scout unit. Every scout survived with widely varying amounts of damage. After reloading the scenario, I could not coax the scenario editor to let the same scout units attack the MWs, so I gave up on that half of the test.

In actual games I have lost many scouts to MWs popped out of pods and encountered at random. So these test results are not convincing to me at all. Maybe random MWs are pre-boil instead of hatchlings? I just got some MWs out of a pod in one of my PBEMs and it looks like a hatchling, but I can't confirm that.

Anyway, I'll continue to set units that encounter MWs in the wild on alert, because ever since I started doing that my losses SEEM to have dropped. Can't prove it, though. Other players should do whatever makes them feel comfortable when exploring. Do not assume that alert units are getting any kind of defensive bonus.

As far as the 'on alert' command, I never said that it made units attack instead of defend. I said it made it SEEM like my units were attacking. I was generically refering to scout vs MW early game encounters. When MWs got the jump on my scouts (prior to my setting them on alert) it always seemed that my scouts had a 50% chance of survival at best. Does anyone know how to find out combat odds from an off-turn attack? Anyway, when my scouts are in position to carry the attack to the MWs, I usually get at least 2:1 combat odds in my favor.

After implementing the technique of setting my scouts on alert prior to a MW attack, it SEEMS to me that my scouts survivability percentage increased to something on the same order as the 2:1 or even better combat odds enjoyed by my scouts when attacking. I have absolutely no statistical proof that this is true.

After a note from Fitz earlier in this thread, I am inclined to believe that placing units on alert gives them the OPTION (AI determined) to respond (including necessary movement) to targets of opportuity that have moved within SINGLE TURN movement range of the alert unit. The nature of the alert unit's response seems to depend on the type of the alert unit (i.e penetrators attack land/sea targets, interceptors attack airborne targets or just fly CAP for nearby friendlies, etc). The actual alert response occurs during the regular turn when it is the alert unit's time to make its normal move. I presume, given a pause in the game turn, you could take alert units off of alert status and give them other orders at any time during the turn, before the game engine cycles past that unit's movement. Needs verifying.

- Scipio

[Fitz]

Sorry, I was assuming too that the on alert unit made it's attack in the off turn, but I think (trying to remember to my very early games) that it actually executes any attacks it can on it's turn. So there shouldn't be any bonus to defense. That doesn't mean there isn't though, given the typical firaxis programming.

[Avenoct]

I don't know why this 'On Alert' thing has gotten me so perplexed, I think it's b/c it's singularly hard to test and might provide a significant and subtle advantage to gameplay.

I'm going back in to test a few more things in a bit, but thought I'd add a little to the discussion thus-far.

Yea, like I said if there's any defensive artillery fire going on, it happens too quick for me to notice it.

One thing that's been helping me is creating massive stacks of identical units...though it's still fast, the repeats make it visible...secondly I turn on the music which I don't normally care for...not much help, but slightly slower.

it actually executes any attacks it can on it's turn. So there shouldn't be any bonus to defense. That doesn't mean there isn't though,

One little theory..some have said the AI has slight advantages (unprinted) in combat. I concur..when it's 2:2 for instance, the AI invariably wins. What if OA units are considered to be AI units rather than human? That would give them the AI combat advantage.

Does anyone know how to find out combat odds from an off-turn attack?

Don't think it's possible. The problem with Hotseat testing is that it's not technically an 'Off-turn' for the Otherguy who's units you face b/c it's still a human turn.

Ok, time for mass-stacked arty tests and a few more air to air and air to ground tests.

-Smack