What am I missing?

[Juggler_Bob]

Ok, I have even tried on Prince level, and cannot get an A.C. landing before the 19th century. I engage in trade (maybe not enough?) and build the SSC (although I have never achieved two techs a turn - except w/ Philosophy or Darwin's)

I follow a direct tech path, avoiding (relatively) useless techs like Warrior's Code and trade/gift techs extensively to the AI's.

What am I missing?

-Bob

PS - I usually play peacefully, only engaging in extended warfare when absolutely necessary. I make a beeline to Monarchy, and then Democracy (with or w/o a stop at Republic on the way) Happiness is not usually a major factor. I pursue an ICS strategy in the early game, and then a quasi-perfectionist strategy in the later years. My council (yes, I still consult w/ them, for the fun of it) is usually very pleased with me.

What I don't do enough, (and I know it) is agressively pursue long-distance trade with other civ's... Am I mistaken there?

[Smash]

Well you don't HAVE to do any trading at all to be successful.But it sure helps.
I don't know.What you decribe sounds perfectly fine but obviously something is going amiss mid game perhaps?I mean with a SSC you really shouldn't have any trouble at prince.

How long is this period between Monarchy and Democracy?

Maybe you are building too many wonders?

I think more info is needed.

[EOL]

Perhaps your SSC isn't growing early enough or have the improvements early enough. You'll probably need to compare to Samson's and Solo's logs to see some exceptional times for this.

EOL

[Scouse Gits]

What size of world are you playing? There is a big difference between the research rates for large and small.

Saving a few years reaching Monarchy is worth centuries at the end of the game. By popping too many huts early on you can collect an encarta of tech which is really useless in the years of Despotism. Once F6 is clogged up with Warrior Code, Polytheism, Map Making and Iron Working you can discover that your next desired science on the way to Monarchy is 20 turns away Unless the huts are liable to be pinched by another civ - try saving a few for later. Have a look at Xin's Size 5 Strategy in the Great Library for an alternative start to the game.

----------------

SG(2)

[Scouse Gits]

Two tech s a turn is not a holy grail - unless you are chasing solo & samson - the main trick is to extend the period of techs every two turns and that wonderful period of a tech a turn as long as possible.

Have you tried playing OCC? Take a good start from Paul's archives and give it a go - you should have little difficulty in launching in the 18th century or earlier and the exercise will certainly hone your SSC skills.

Otherwise, perhaps as you yourself have said, you need to trade more - virtually nothing is more important than those first three trade routes into the SSC ...

Hope this hleps a little ...

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Trade routes don't need to be distant to be very beneficial. Also, republic is a boon for boosting your city population quickly. Each new worker is at least two more arrows, something that can't be undervalued when racing against the clock.

[Edward]

Juggler_Bob,

I'm far from an expert and by no means a micromanager. I'd hate to have to count up how many beakers I need and run around changing the worked squares in all my cities every turn. Any pre-2010 landing is a win in my book.
Your strategy sounds similar to mine (SSC, early expansion, little war, very late city development).

My guess is you need a new mindset. Remember that going for early AC is inherently different than merely getting to AC before the game ends. Is the "best" route the safest or the fastest?

If you merely want to win, then creating a large empire (via ICS or other means) is a very good idea. It makes it difficult for the AI to significantly hurt you through warfare and also lets you keep up with the AI production-wise - all without too much micromanaging.

Wanting to get early AC is a different goal. Early wins require that you ditch safer, more reliable strategies in favor of efficiency, risk, and careful management. OCC is at one extreme. Look how often a player gets killed just before launch. I'll bet you're rarely if ever wiped out by the AI. Yet many OCC landings are pre-2000 - and they're limiting themselves to one city!

Look at Samson, Solo, and Ribannah's early AC logs. You'll see that they almost always have 8 cities (all of which are founded pretty early). I'll bet you usually have 20 or more cities (good for safety and production, bad for early AC). They have very tight early games. They not only have early monarchy, but also early Republic. (A quick Republic would be bad for ICS and any sort of expansion, but is great for early AC landings. Democracy is too long to wait for increased arrows and We Loving the SSC.) They pour their entire empire's resources into building up the SSC (vs. an early ICS strategy). Their "helper cities" don't have much more than a temple (vs. late game quasi-perfectionism). I'm not meaning any of this as a put-down since my usual strategy is much like yours. I'm just highlighting the different approaches for an early win vs. an easy win. As EOL suggests, look at some of their early landing logs:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=21796
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=21303
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...7&pagenumber=1
and many more.

p.s. I too love the High Council for its entertainment value. Especially the Military - Science Advisor rivalry.

[Juggler_Bob]

Thanks for all of the input.

Here is more info on my play style:

I usually play a medium map.

The Wonders I usually build are:
SSC: Colossus, Copernicus, Isaac's, SETI

Others: Marco's, Michelangelo's, Leo's, Bach's (sometimes), Gardens (sometimes), UN, Women's, Hoover, Apollo, Statue (sometimes), Eiffel (only if necessary, if I've been evil...)

MY weaknesses: Pyramids (almost always), Darwin's (if possible).

I usually throw three caravans into the SSC as soon as I have the ability. Most other caravan construction goes towards wonders.

My usual civ size is 15-25 cities.

I will normally go into Republic unless I am challenged by a strong neighbor who must be pacified. Then the unhappiness factor drains too much to make the additional production useful. In that case, I will stay in Monarchy until Democracy is available.

I always gift techs to the AI (after Marco's), usually to get their maps, or techs I don't have, as well as to reduce the "learning curve"... I try to hold the key techs to myself long enough to gain some advantage (Gunpowder, Invention, etc.) or at least to give me a leg up in the Wonders race.

I am slow to develop my navy, and am usually found sailing triremes long after the AI has Ironclads...

While the library and university must be built in the SSC, I don't focus on them in other cities unless the trade production makes it very worthwhile.

I usually garrison my cities w/ three phalanx/pike/musketeer, etc. for crowd control/defense as well as one diplomat/spy for bribery/2 square viewing.

Cities are usually equipped with temple, walls, harbor (if necessary), aqueduct/sewer (when needed), and colesseum (if it is a particularly unruly town. Marketplace/bank/stock exchange come later, when trade production warrants... Factories, etc. are built in those cities where they are useful...


I am usually capable of winning at Prince or King level, but it is often a close call to do it before 2020....


Again, thanks for your input...

-Bob

[Smash]

geez..once again it all sounds pretty good to me.

I was gonna suggest more exploratuon but you are doing enough.And with Marco's you're ok in that area.

About the only thing I would do differently is pick and choose my city walls and definitly have markets before colliseums and aquaducts/sewers.On prince or king I would most likely have a market as the first improvement in every city that got improvements.For prince its 4 contented to start so thats a cathedral with Theology built in.You'll be able to manage Republic or demo cities on less luxuries with markets.That 10 or 20% can go to science.That should make 5 turns into 3 anyways.

What I generally do for Space games is just take the SSC beyond size 12.Everything else never gets past 8.With wonders and/or content improvements you can run 0 luxuries even in Democracy.Lets see,if you have a temple and Mich's you're good to go till size 7,I think on prince or is that deity?..whatever...chuck in JSB and you can even send units out and about at zero lux.And/or use Shake's for this.Handy for boats before galleons.

Some will say you are going a little heavy on units for defense but I like that.I also go heavy with a minimum of 2 per city and most likely 4 and dips.Hangover from MP I guess.

Just do it all faster

[EOL]

Originally posted by Juggler_Bob
Thanks for all of the input.
The Wonders I usually build are:
SSC: Colossus, Copernicus, Isaac's, SETI

Others: Marco's, Michelangelo's, Leo's, Bach's (sometimes), Gardens (sometimes), UN, Women's, Hoover, Apollo, Statue (sometimes), Eiffel (only if necessary, if I've been evil...)

MY weaknesses: Pyramids (almost always), Darwin's (if possible).

I usually throw three caravans into the SSC as soon as I have the ability. Most other caravan construction goes towards wonders.

My usual civ is 15-25 cities.

Presuming you don't want to build less than these 15 cities:

If you're trying to land quickly then you're going a bit overboard on the wonders. Eiffel is definitely useless. If your reputation's not spotless I find they won't trust you anyway if you're powerful.
If it is spotless and you've got 15-25 large cities they'll do what they want anyway. Statue -> presumably you're not going to change out of Democracy (until after launch at least) one/two Oedo years instead. Hoover -> only useful if you're building factories too -> you could build 4 caravans for each city instead of a factory and have another 12 from not building Hoover. With 25 cities that's about 80% of how many you need to build a max speed space ship almost instantly.

If as Smash suggests you only grow the SSC beyond size 8 then building either Mike's or JSB should be enough (more than on prince) - with Mike's you may need an Elvis if you have ships wandering under Demo. Also Women's becomes useless then - all your cities will be as large as they're going to get. UN is not neccesary unless a stronger enemy is attacking you - get some breathing space (by this stage the AI are always boasting about any techs they have which you don't as they discover them, so the embassy isn't required).

I will normally go into Republic unless I am challenged by a strong neighbor who must be pacified.

Early in the game just giving them a tech should pacify them. If they keep asking for cash and you're feeling miserly you can drain your coffers first, then they will accept tech.

Then the unhappiness factor drains too much to make the additional production useful. In that case, I will stay in Monarchy until Democracy is available.

I always gift techs to the AI (after Marco's), usually to get their maps, or techs I don't have, as well as to reduce the "learning curve"... I try to hold the key techs to myself long enough to gain some advantage (Gunpowder, Invention, etc.) or at least to give me a leg up in the Wonders race.

I am slow to develop my navy, and am usually found sailing triremes long after the AI has Ironclads...

You said you've built Leo's, why not trade for at least Navigation to upgrade? They may well have Magnetism too.

While the library and university must be built in the SSC, I don't focus on them in other cities unless the trade production makes it very worthwhile.

I usually garrison my cities w/ three phalanx/pike/musketeer, etc. for crowd control/defense as well as one diplomat/spy for bribery/2 square viewing.

Against the AI while under Rep/Demo just one defender is enough for non-coastal cities (no barb spawning spots nearby presumbly). Build fortresses on good defensive terrain (within 3 sq of one of your cities) between your civ and your neighbours with a vet defender, an offensive unit and a dip to defend the frontiers (preferably at a choke point). If the AI can't get to your cities you don't need walls and you can stop the dip/spy from getting to them as well. The odd offensive unit near the middle of your civ and some dips may give you more peace of mind. Coastal cities need to be defended a bit better. If you can cut down how many support shields you pay, without harming your defense too much, so much the better. If you let the AI get howitzers it could become a bit nip and tuck.

If you're keeping the AI pacified then pirates are likely to be your only worry, Mobile Warfare as an off-track tech will end such problems.

Cities are usually equipped with temple, walls, harbor (if necessary), aqueduct/sewer (when needed), and colesseum (if it is a particularly unruly town. Marketplace/bank/stock exchange come later, when trade production warrants... Factories, etc. are built in those cities where they are useful...

I am usually capable of winning at Prince or King level, but it is often a close call to do it before 2020....

Again, thanks for your input...

-Bob

If your cities aren't growing beyond size 8 (as per Smash's suggestion) on Prince level you'll find that a temple and marketplace (if running some luxuries and 3 trade routes) will keep everyone happy enough (particularly if you're building a happy wonder too). Harbours may be needed as and when, saves using settlers to improve terrain.

Its easier with fewer cities though, the max you can build without exceding the riot factor, means less time building settlers to found new cities and more time building caravans and probably no need to go for any happy wonders on prince. Leo's becomes less of a requirement too since it takes little time to upgrade your forces.

Edit: Some of the typo's

[DaveV]

I'll give my standard plug for fast, I mean really fast, early game expansion. I've seen lots of players say that their early game build order is something like phalanx, phalanx, granary, temple, settler. This is an awfully slow expansion: I think the best start comes from building little other than settlers in the early game. And don't waste time irrigating or mining; build enough roads to connect your cities, then get those cities producing. A few horsemen and archers (and, later, diplomats) should be able to protect your cities from barbs and hostile AIs. You'd be amazed at the difference it makes to build all your cities before 1000BC. This also makes "we love" days easier later in the game, because all your cities will be about the same size.

Once you have your cities built, you can fill in irrigation and mines. A piece of advice here, too: improve the squares you're working first! It seems obvious, but a lot of people ignore it (this is also one of the great weaknesses of the AI). Don't irrigate a plains square that you don't have a worker on if a neighboring city has several workers on unimproved terrain. Move your settler over to help out with the second city. It's a good idea to work your settlers in teams so they can improve squares twice as fast. You get extra production from the first square you improve while your settlers are working on the second.

[freshman]

Just one little piece of advice - though I'm no expert at all on early landings. I noticed in your list of things that you do, you didn't mention at all "We Love The Day" turns - if in Republic or Democracy, every city can grow in population by 1 each turn!! (OK - so the city must have no unhappy people & happy people>=content people - and enough food)
So remember,
if you Irrigate,
then Luxury-rate
then you'll Populate


Also, skip the Pyramids; you probably thought it improved your natural growth; well it can't compare to "We Love..."-turns

In fact, you've listed a ton of wonders; try focusing on the science and happiness ones only. If you're looking for stuff to build, try storing up lots of production in caravans for building your spaceship faster later on. You can rush caravans with your dough.

I too am I big lover of Marco-Polo's Embassy; but I use it for conquering purposes.

[samson]

A couple of suggestions for improved landing dates.

1) Get at least 3 starting techs, including Alphabet. Otherwise, don't bother - you may not be able to get the minimum tech cost.

2) Forget about most of those Wonders you're building. Just do the SSC: Copernicus, Colossus, Newton, maybe Shakespeare. Build Mike's if you must. And of course, Apollo.

3) Cut your number of cities in half. In fact, cut everything you do in half. That's the key to early landing: compress your usual game. Establish a timeline for your usual game with milestones measured in turns. Then set a target timeline with the same milestones but using half as many turns. Expand less, grow less, build less.

[happy 2 B here]

Learn how to play as pure OCC 1st. You really need to do that to learn the true power of the SCC in comparison to what your other cities contribute to science. By delaying science wonders in your SCC and delaying WLT*D in your SCC to let your heiper cities catch up, you are wasting valuable turns that you can never catch up with later. In OCC, you should have no problem avoiding conflict with other civs by giving techs and, in fact, you should be able to be allied with 2 or more other civs during the game which will be your "cash cows" to heip you rush build caravans to build wonders. That is another important point. If you are not rush building caravans to build wonders, read Paul's OCC primer on how to do this. Don't be afraid to beg for money and give away all techs (except for combustion before you have discovered filght) to avoid conflict. In general, do not trade declarations of war for alliances, unless the other civ is half-way around the world.

[Rasputin]

i find that even giving all my techs to the AI doesnt prevent them from attacking me.. Have never been able to get ahead of the AI in tech production trying the OCC.. they usually gang up on me and trade techs amngsat themselves and bypass me,,

[happy 2 B here]

Rasputin,
Are you referring to OCC play or early AC play? There is a difference b/c with OCC play you tend to not be supreme as much or at all. One key to establishing alliances is to try to do that when you are not supreme b/c the AI will rarely ally with you when you are supreme. Usually, if you stick to just one city and aggresively explore early, you can encounter the other civs before you have started WLT*D and increased you population and your power rating. Also, keep trying to establish alliances with other civs throught the game. Often, they will ally with you later in the game, when they were not willing to before. You have to weigh very carefully offers to ally for a declaration of war. If you are at peace with the civ that you declare war with, it will hurt your reputation and potentially direct units from that civ to your city, requiring a "shunting" of your resources to fend them off. With regards to your reputation, that is also important in establishing alliances. Try to keep a squeeky-clean reputiation at all times. Finally, if they ask for money in exchange for an alliance in OCC play, go ahead and take the offer b/c you can usually beg for all of your money back (and then some) in the future.

[EOL]

Originally posted by happy 2 B here
Finally, if they ask for money in exchange for an alliance in OCC play, go ahead and take the offer b/c you can usually beg for all of your money back (and then some) in the future.

In the early game, if they try it later in the game they will usually take your money and make you declare war on their hated enemy afterwards for an alliance. Double-crossing swine.

[Edward]

Originally posted by Juggler_Bob
I am usually capable of winning at Prince or King level, but it is often a close call to do it before 2020....

I may have mis-interpreted your initial request. If you aren't trying to set records, generally feel good about your game, and just don't seem to be able to do it before 2020;   then I have a simple solution that worked for me:

When it becomes 1900 - stop expanding.

* When the year is 1900, you are no longer allowed to found any new cities.

* When the year is 1900, you must switch to Democracy.

* When the year is 1900, you're no longer allowed to send military units into enemy territory.

* When the year is 1900, all your cities must only produce caravans to deliver for science beakers (preferably to large cities in other peaceful civilizations). You can build improvements in the SSC but not elsewhere. Sure you can build temples or marketplaces if a city's going into disorder or military units if it's under attack. But no "perfecting" non-SSC cities or building aqueducts for anticipated growth. A flood of caravans (combined with your SSC) will send you up the science tree more quickly than just about anything else. And their continual income means you don't need any taxes. You can max science and keep your luxuries just high enough to stave off disorder.


As you get more practice you can throw in a We Love the President Week after getting all your little cities ready. You can start looking at supply and demand when delivering your caravans, etc., etc. But you'll be surprised how helpful simply setting a "deadline" for yourself can be in beating the 2020 clock.

[jpk]

I use the following strategy at Deity. When I discover Republic I set luxuries to 40%, Tax to 10%, and Science to 50%. Then I change the government to Republic. If your workers are on trade producing squares and you have a decent happiness wonder Hanging Garderns, Michelangelo We Love The Consul Days will increase the size of your cities suffiently to overcome the low scinece rate. Furthermore because your cites are larger, your caravans will be worth more. That yields a bigger science bonus.

[cpemma]

As well as SSC, I have an arsenal city - coastal, good shields, caravan-built Shakespeare. Rush-built factory, osp & mp, and pollution preventers.

One of my few cities before tanks with barracks (& later a port fac), it builds mil units, especially naval. The vet land units can be adopted by other cities to save its own shields, likewise it has on-loan defenders.

No unhappiness when the navy is out, WFFM.

[jpk]

It is convenient to have the Hanging Gardens and Shakespeare in the same city, at least if you go to Republic or Democracy. The Hanging Gardens gives you some guaranteed happy citizens and Shakespeare sees to it that none of the citizens in unhappy. With some luxuries it will often be the case that the city's growth is limited by food.

Because of this growth potential I like to have both the Hanging Gardens and Shakespeare in my Super Science City. It is not always possible to get both the Colossus and the Hanging Gardens in the same city, at least if you play on a multicontinent world. It helps to found the capital by 3700 BC, go for trade right after Monarchy, and have nearby cities build caravans as fast as you can afford to build them.