The Chiron Chronicle: Discussions (Restart 3)

Another text file to read in SMAC is flavor.txt

Quite useful for realistic sizes of Rovers, Needlejets, etc....
kind of ammunition, how it operates, etc of a weapon......

Sure, there may be differences between factions, but most equipment would be base on U.N. Unity designs.....so the diffirences won't be a big difference....design wise.......

Cruisers are faster then Foils.............and foils are only 2/3 the size of a Cruiser according to the Flavor text.... geez, whats the point to still maintain Foils? Close defence? Maneuverabity? etc?
The could be replace with Destroyers......... :P
I would have to rethink the Nautilus Pirate Navy before its too late....no point in continuing building Foils........... Pirates should start a replacement program............

will do a slight minor change to admin....adding the new Destroyer design.......... then mention in the game thread of the destroyers design and built to replace the foils.............


Another thing is interesting.......... Troop Transport carriers 500 troops plus support....... so the base standard is 500......which is 2 Units in the game............ Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh Realism attack.......................................
makes a lot of sence........ average pop for a faction is like 1 to 5 million people by 2200 in chiron chronicles....... but hard to see half the population into the military..................
base number for amount of soldiers in a Scout Patrol........... 50 to 100? base number for a Rover unit....10 to 15? squadron of 10 to 15 in a needlejet unit........ Probe team is like a average of 15........ Former unit is about 200-400 people. average crew of a foil is 30 to 50 people? Cruiser is 50 to 100? With advance tech, it is possible....................................

makes more sence, what you people think?

-LMP

[Mr. President]

OK, I screwed up. Erm... helicopters aren't extremely-long-range vehicles at the best of times anyway...If it comes up, I'll improvise. The Apache, the most sophisticated helicopter of our time, can hit targets up to two miles away.

As to fuel, I seem to remember the blurb for Synthetic Fossil Fuels saying that needlejets can't be built until Planet's industries can produce large quantities of high-grade jet fuel, nuclear reactors notwithstanding.

I was actually wondering how people got Superstring Theory ahead of the University. I was told to take less techs than them. But maybe if the Cyborgs discovered it, Roze and Svensgaard could have gotten it from them. At any rate, I don't think I'll take it for the time being. Soon.

Are the Progenitors going to come into the picture eventually?

If Natan is reading this, I'm very interested in your offer. You may regard the chances of acceptance as high to very high.

[Natan]

I think its okay to differ with the flavor text if we want to. For example, we could either make each transport bigger or have transport units represent several ships, since transport units, having no armament, don't need such big crews or expensive weapons. Similarly, we can just make foils faster and more maneuverable, like PT boats or destroyers. Also, I think it would be silly for a faction to arm all of its soldiers with chaos weapons, destructo-beams, and other increasingly high tech gadgets. Maybe we could have individual infantrymen armed with impact or missile weapons, but higher levels of military technology be employed in support weapons? So the infantrymen would carry impact rifles, but infantry regiments would have heavier weapons, but mounted on wheels or something? In the nano-factory movie, Santiago says that the nano paste will produce "a small factory, or enough impact rifles to equip a regiment," even though by the time you get the nano-factory, there's no way you don't have chaos and probably shard tech.

Also, about the Hive: I figure that the Hive has both a large army and a powerful one. Sure, it's mostly made up of cheap conscripts, but because of the large and fast growing population, we can afford to put a lot of people in each unit. So in addition to having a lot of military personell, the Hive could also have a lot of units, giving them the largest army in terms of amounts of units and hardware, although they would all have low morale.

I think that the Chiron factions could probably support 200-400 thousand-man armed forces, depending on population size and how many resources they want to allocate to defense. Some countries the size of the larger Chiron factions already support 200,000 man armies in reality, and I figure that industrial automation will create surplus of stupid Drones whose factory jobs are unnecessary and who can't perform more intellectual tasks; these could be used by armies which don't care about having lower than average morale. Obviously though, army size would very greatly from faction to faction because of differences in population, support, and the investment a faction makes in its armed forces.

Mr. President: May I suggest that Morgan make his decision known now, so as to leave other factions, particularly those who support Morgan for governor, time to make new decisions?

Weapons i can see a Infantryman carry:

-"Shredder" Rifle (7.62mm UN standard)
-Impact Rifle (most common in CC, even by 2200...also known as a rail gun or a gauss rifle[what the Starcraft marines use])
-Laser Rifle (not a infantryman favourite...but quite useful for sniping)
-Gatling Laser (see it more like a vulcan chain gun, but not as bulky or heavy)
-Rocket Launcher (like the one in Team Fortress or basic missile loaded bazooka)
-Grenade Launcher
-Rocket Propelled Grenade Launcher (like in duke nukem )
-Fragmentation Grenade
-Chaos Rifle (would be like a Disruptor Rifle in startrek or some other SCI-FIs, or maybe like a Pulse Rifle in Babylon 5)
-Shard Rifle (typical plasma rifle you see in most SCI-FIs, but uses 15 mm Mass-energy shell as ammo)
-Fusion Rifle (wouldn't be the prefered weapon, but hoot more effective then the old normal laser...can also have a Fusion Gatling Laser )

rest of the weapons well figure it when get close to those techs

I can't see Artillery units use Beam base weaponry for artillery...so Missile weaponry will still be used probebly until plasma shard? even then, Artillery may become out of style too once we get into Hovertanks

standard vehicle weapon....all can be effectively used in vehicule slug fests.


Mr. President, it depends on a factions research goals...the Pirates were aiming towards Superstring Theory, while the Cyborgs and University aim elsewhere. Take the Gaians and Cult, they focus so much into Explorer techs, but end up being lacking in other areas. If the Cyborgs and Pirates both started research on one tech, about the same time...then the cyborgs will mostly get it first....Pirates can keep in par with them with espionage or sabotage their research so they can be ahead. Pirates as discovered Superstring Theory first on Chiron, but took them awhile before they started making Chaos Weapons... so the top factions are gradually getting into Chaos weapons close to the same time Yes, Needlejets may depend on Jet Fuel because it would be hard to have a fission powered jet engine....practicly unfeasible. But for ground Vehicules like Rovers, their engines can be powered with Fission...so don't need fuel....well, when the Uranium runs out...would need replacement....but a Fission reactor can last quite a while...... Strategicly, better to have Fission powered vehicules then Combustion...what happens when your supply route is cut off, hmm? no gas so Synthetic Fossil Fuel will be mainly used by Aircrafts (until we get into techs where we can have better reactive fuel) and in Missile Weaponry. Besides, i would think factions would also use Hydrogen engines hydrogen ain't Fossil Fuel base.......

Natan, the thing is....if we get into 200 to 500 thousand armed forces...that will effect the pop at bases...even with Industrial Automation, still need Drones to supervise, construct facilities, mining, and other things which robotics cannot do effectively by themselves....especially before we get into Digital Sentience and Self-Awareness Hive may support large infantry units, but not all factions............we can use unit as a general term, but suggest we can into using Squad, Platoon, Company, Battalion, Regiment, Flight, Squadron, Wing, etc.... so we don't get into confusion, especially when we get into military confrontations. And its not like an entire unit will be together...they will get into smaller pieces and spread out.... for a Pirate Interceptor unit, they would be split into couple or more bases in the area. as for transports, well...they barely have any maintenance cost in CC compare to military units and can get built lot quicker compare to a Cruiser.
Foils can be smaller, faster and more maneuverable...but on't be tough and easy to nock out compare to Cruisers. Foils would be better for short range defence then full scale long range battle. So Destroyers would be better still Pirates may eventually have a surplus of Foils soon........ about a third or half of the foils they have are stolen/captured anyway ...mainly taken from the Hive, Spartans, Believers, Morganites and University

[Mr. President]

Natan: Morgan will talk soon. I'm reluctant to abandon Dawn, and I still need to weigh a couple of things. But we'll know soon.

I'm assuming that fission-powered vehicles actually have uranium or something similar on board. If so, they would need to incorporate protection mechanisms, shielding, etc., which would be dangerous if ruptured. I like that idea.

Can we use medium-sized missiles, as in up to about the size of a Patriot, before Orbital Spaceflight? Also, are multiple rocket launchers and Howitzer-style artillery in or out? The latter would probably have been rendered obsolete by the advent of the speeder chassis.

Mr. President, how big is a Patriot? As for Artillery, is still around...the eastern continent is pretty fond of them, so bunch of them along their borders and coasts. Central Continent really got into using them after the Second University War.
Artillery wasn't really effective (especially against rovers in rolling terrain) until Synthetic Fossil Fuel allowed missiles. After upgrading Artillery to Msl Weaponry, they became hoot more effective. Missiles allows them to do various kinds of Artillery attacks (standard, heavy explosive, incendinary, cluster, nerve gas, soporific gas, mass bombarment, etc). So Missile Artillery is hoot better then the Howitzers Do remember, this is SMAC with better tech!!! The chiron militaries don't always operate like the ones on earth, except for the basic and general stuff...and with new techs, can do more things then we can here on earth in r/l. So think more SMAC like then Earth like please , especially military stuff. I would think fission reactors are hoot more reliable, efficient, and safe compare to our nuclear plants of today. with the abundance of Uranium on chiron, they not to expensive to have them in military units....besides, Economy in SMAC is base on energy!!! So probebly would cost more in energy to maintain combustion rovers then fission rovers...cost energy to set synthetic fuel maker factories, produce megatons of fuel and cost to ship them to units all over the place....... Everyone can produce energy too, without get hoot for producing fake money as you can't produce fake energy Can use the body to power a generator to produce energy and get it stored in a energy storage tank, etc....... So keep that in mind when you people are in economical thinking... Anyway, Fission Reactors use U-235 according to Flavor. So, such Uranium exist on earth?

oh, to answer a previous question i forgot to answer.....

Aliens will come, just not right away for now....also need players for them too and will be quite odd playing them. They are Proginators, aliens...not humans. read to many crappy interactive sci-fi stories where aliens of all form and kind act like humans..........like for example, how we know aliens drinks beer?

[Natan]

Well, I figured the big factions would have 300,000-man armed forces, but that in wartime when they draft more people, they will have even larger armies, and the support costs will start to drain the economy.

I think a fission reactor on a rover is a bit unrealistic. Nuclear reactors are big, expensive, hard to use and create way more energy output than a rover going 100kph could ever hope to need. They also still need fuel to run, so I think it would make more sense for rovers to use synthetic fossil fuels (syntholine) in their engines. Even on Chiron and with new technology, you just don't need a nuclear reactor to run a small tank. Most ships though would probably have nuclear reactors.

[Mr. President]

LMP - A Patriot can be carried on a vehicle the size of a bus. (It's actually an anti-missile missile.)

I'm trying to think Alpha Centauri instead of Earth, but it would be very similar in some cases. For example, I still think we need to import and export things. It's all very well and good to use pure energy as the international currency, but it has to be used to pay for something. Exchanging energy for energy means that no-one gains anything. Artillery on a rover, I would think would be like a faster version of modern-day self-propelled artillery. Infantry's modality according to the flavor text is "manual/tracked", which I had in the back of my mind when I mentioned tanks in the Chronicle thread. I understand that speeders are the rage; but keep in mind that you don't need to drive over things with a tank. You can, but another use of armor is to situate it behind your lines and fire their heavy weaponry. This tactic is used when terrain is too difficult for a tracked vehicle to negotiate, as in Judea-Samaria.

Sort of got off track there. Sorry.

[Natan]

Not off topic at all, Mr. President, but my next comment definitely will be will be: Judea-Samaria? Arik Sharon quote in the profile! Wow! Shalom Chaveri.

I'd say that import/export would still be important, but a little bit less so than on Earth, because all the factions have large areas and therefore many natural resources and all share more or less the same level of economic development. But I'm sure there would still be a good deal of international trade, that's why commerce is simulated in SMACX.

The infantry thing was actually bothering me a little, it seems to me that infantry need more mobility than their feet can provide, that's why I decided to have the Hive use transport rovers to move troops around to new battle zones. I also like the idea of using tanks/rovers for fire-support as stationary gun platforms, but I think they'd require some sort of dug out or trench to protect them from anti-tank fire.

Energy Economy wise, FISSION Reactors are cheaper to maintain then Combustion. Switching to Combustion would be going Backwards. If you use R/L Present Earth standards of Nuclear Reactors, yes, they are big, bulky, unefficient and uneconomical base on a PAPER money Economy. PAPER money will become obsolete in the next decade or so when INflation becomes a huge problem and where ENERGY would be hoot more important then now and treated as Gold...same with fresh water probebly. SMAC starts out in 2100...99 years from 2001 and plenty enough time for innovation, miniaturization, etc... enough time to develop a Small Compact FISSION Reactor which is very efficient and only requires to be refueled every few DECADES with new fresh U-235 which is quite in abundance on Chiron compare to Earth. also by 2200, they would be very efficicient and compact. So base on a ENERGY Economy which the factions operate on, it is hoot more Economical. Also, hoot better in a Military perspective.

Chiron is bigger and as an higher gravity then Earth, so a Rover would be hoot heavier on Chiron then on Earth...so bigger power requirements... then you consider the main weapon the Rover uses, Armor, radar/sensors, onboard computer, etc... the Rover would definatly require lot of power to move and power such weight on CHIRON. Synthetic Fuel will be mainly use for Aircrafts and Missile weaponry by the Militaries i would think. Civilian use, okay, but the idea to go backwards and use combustion engines in military hardware? A Military would rather run out of ammunination then ammo AND gas to power the vehicule when their supply route gets cut off by the enemy.

Another thing, Rovers are not Tanks. Even now on r/l Earth, Tanks are getting obsolete because you can't rapidly deploy them, to slow, etc... Rovers are just the next generation of the "Calvary", where they can rapidly be deployed, fast and maneuverable.

Chiron is not Earth, so don't base a 2200 Chiron on a 2001 Earth to much please.

-LMP

Mr. President, import/export resources isn't a big thing on Chiron as on Earth. The Factions pretty much have everything they need to build stuff. The things that would be traded is various fabricated goods... like computer equipment, medical equipment, construction equipment, mining equipment, environmental equipment, weapons, aircraft fuel, art goods, information, software, fancy doodads, natural produce, wood, exotic minerals found on chiron, other luxurious goods, artifacts, earth made stuff, pieces of unity, etc.....
So nothing for the factions to screw each other over via trade. Trade is encouraged because factions increase income.
Since it is a Energy Economy, there would be no inflation problems...so the value of energy is the same in all factions...but some may value it more base on need like the Hive.

Natan, look at the unit graphics... the big guns are on little tread things. And by 2200, yes i would think it is common for Infantry units to travel on Armoured Personel Carriers/Rovers, tread or rover transports, by helicopter, etc...... and in the early years, they mainly had to go about by foot. They still go on foot anyway in some points, terrain, etc...


-LMP

[Sprayber]

Here is a patriot missile.

[Guardian]

Okay, I hereby announce that I'm finally going to post today...
I meant to do it yesterday, but Apolyton moved like a flea in tar and I kept getting time outs, time outs, more time outs, and very little else...

Anyway, things look a lot better today, so there should be a post appearing in the story thread before too long...

See you there!

[DarkCloud]

Mr. President- The Progenitors will probably arrive when we get another player... or times are slow in the game and someone wants to pick up the aliens. They should arrive within about 5-10 years.

Good post Guardian.

Something is screwed in the Story thread....a entire page disapeared (hopefully not deleted, intentionally or by accident or by error).

MArkg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-LMP

oh, forget it....... tried it again and works this time....... must of been a hiccup :P

-LMP

[Clear Skies]

Ugh...

I am almost entirely back with you, but due to my long period of absence and newly starting 6th form I am having significant trouble getting back up to speed with the story.

Bear with me. I shall return.

Okay, i have seen those Patriot missiles before, just don't remember their names....i suck with names of all sort....

The Patriot missile in the pic looks close to 1/3 or half the size of a Conventional Missile. I will allow it, using normal missile warhead thought, with shorter range....1500 to 2000km?(3-4 squares).

Conventional Missiles seem to operate like a Clean plasma base mini nuke :P Missiles useful to shoot down things in space too

now, for the story agenda....

-Planet Governor Election
-Western Continent Conflict
-Industrial Summit
-drone selling
-anti-mindworm gas
-eventually, beginning of the Space Race? (started by maybe having the cyborgs be the first faction to return to space by shooting the first satellite on Chiron?)

-LMP

[DarkCloud]

Actually the space race shouldn't begin until the Aliens have landed... That will make the aliens want to grab the spaceships the factions are using and possibly move to another planet?

(please excuse me if that sounded a little "off" Alpha Centauri-wise... I have forgotten most of the real storyline )

oh well

Factions will be sending satellites mainly and doubt the factions will be able to make ships like UNity or whatever until after Advance Orbital Flight. The aliens would end up having to be bit more advance then the factions and rapidly expand in a period of 10 years.

-LMP

[Alynzia]

I know none of you like me here, but if SMAC Fanatic is busy at 6th form, could I play one of his factions (he has the Cyborgs and Gaians right?) I have no life until my university course in February.

No worries if you don't want me, I'm working on a Usurper/Cyborg/Data Angel story for the time being. Which I will now be able to paste thanks to the tips from kass & Guardian. Much appreciated.

Alynzia.
(in reference to my avatar - I'm not a Spartan but I look like Santiago minus tan.)

[Guardian]

What do you mean none of us like you?!?

If we didn't like you, do you honestly think we'd bother to keep reading your posts and giving you feedback?

I don't really know you, but I do like your writing and so... well, I guess I like you!

-But hey, maybe you were just trying to get somebody to say something along those lines? Well, I guess it worked then, didn't it? Anyway, you're welcome to play with us as far as I'm concerned, and I seem to recall LMP saying that SMAC should give up one of the two factions when somebody else showed up wanting to play it. So... I guess it's just a matter of determining which one you'll get to play.
Welcome on board!

Oh, and by the way... if you want to select ALL the text in a document, or ALL of a web page or whatever, hit Ctrl + A for "Select All"...

[Guardian]

*ROFL*

*Guardian just noticed Alynzia's signature...*

Oh, and by the way... I believe the exact words in Lal's little speech were,
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information..."

Nit-picky details, I know...
(Go ahead and bonk me if you feel the need... )

[Mr. President]

Shalom, Natan. It's been too long.

How the heck big is a speeder anyway? If they've really superseded tanks, they would have to be just about as large and thereby as slow. I'll keep tanks for now (equipped with gatling lasers ), but I'll start phasing them out and looking at better designs. Besides, there will always be uses for huge, slow, heavy death machines. You might have figured out by now that I'm an infantry man.

Also, where might the Progenitors land? The map seems pretty full as is. Might they have to take some cities from humans and modify them for their own use?

[Natan]

Well, I always thought of the speeders/rovers as being little more than cars with a big chaos/missile/gatling gun and a few impact/laser guns to kill infantry. But it occurs to me that different factions would built their rovers differently. The Morganites might like to build big, slow, moving fortresses on treads, the Hive might like a jeep with a gun on top, the Spartans might like something in the middle, and so on.

[DarkCloud]

Alynzia... If SMAC Fanatic feels that he cannot handle the overload of work... you can have his factions... If he feels he can work at school then perhaps, he should cede one of his factions over to you. It is up to him.

Or, of course, you could wait about a week or two, then play as the aliens on Chiron?

What factions are open? Are the Free Drones still open? I seem to remember that someone took them... ???

Welcome to the game.

Yes, SMAC Fanatic would need to give one up...and also depends on which Faction he choses to keep too.

Darkcloud, the Free Drones is taken by Bearcat. And no, rather not have aliens this year or the next! rather wait after the space race.

How could tank phase out? simple, have something lot faster and lot more maneurable and lot easier to deploy and the ability to go to more places. Tread Tanks won't be able to keep or turn their quick enough to nail them. I already read enough military articles and so on to suggest that tanks will eventually be obsolete, unless they develop something like a HoverTank.

#INFANTRY
Domain: Land
Speed: 8km\hr
Modality: Manual\Tracked
Dimensions: N\A
Modifiers: +25% vs. base

A Infantry unit could use Armoured Personel Carriers which some versions may have a turret gun (standard, impact, laser, gatling laser, missile launcher, etc) for support. Heavy Slow Tanks with big guns would simply be outmatched by the sheer speed, maneuverabilty, etc by Rovers, especially in open Fields. Also remember that the Chiron Gravity is higher then Earth! Imagine how much a M16 Abram would weigh on Chiron, hmm? Rovers won't always stay put to in military combat for a Tank to nail them.


#SPEEDER
Domain: Land
Speed: 102km\hr
Modality: Wheeled
Dimensions: 7.7x3.6x2.9m
Modifiers: +25% in open

According to dimensions, that is bigger then a typical big arse Car and equal or bigger to the average modern tank. So the Dimensions can be base on the Unity Rover...and i do see factions develop their own military versions BASE on the Unity Rover design...which would be typically SMAC. Chiron is a perfect environment for Rovers, being mostly flat and rolling...so plenty of space to move.


This is SMAC and a Science Fiction on a Alien World, so hard to see current modern day military in that kind of thing. Base upon, yes, but LIKE IT, please no.

-LMP

For the record, TANKS or TREAD VEHICULES are NOT Rovers.....
Rovers are the next generation of Calvary :P

-LMP

Couple more things......

as for where the aliens will land..... Deniara Island and Mount Planet. Best places out of whats its available without landing smack dab in the middle of a human faction, etc........

Believers will have trouble with one and the Morganites, Data Angels, Free Drones and the Spartans on another in the initial Alien expansion.

Second thing, Argonaut.... Data Angels can't have Power values......

-LMP

[Alynzia]

Hello again. I still would like one of SMAC Fanatic's factions. I know he loves them both, what with his Unity story and I've heard him off topic wanting to save the Earth. Sigh, help me wrench one away from him! I'll not know who to read up on until he tells me!

I've changed my signature for you Guardian. I knew you or kass didn't not like me, I was worried about Lord LMP and Argonaut because I seem to recall being mean about his fiction idea and her story. Weak and lame were the words, respectively.

*Alynzia makes note to expect fights with Pirates and Data Angels*

Thanks again,

Alynzia.