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Old July 20, 2001, 19:01   #1
Alinestra Covelia
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Official place names of China (at least)
Like it used to say in my profile, I'm a pedant at heart. So I thought I'd give my (very minor) two cents to the Civ3 project:

Firaxis obviously pride themselves on authenticity and realism, as SMAC's amazingly detailed Planet description proves. I wondered why they were using old spellings of Chinese place names, which confuse a modern PinYin reader such as myself. I suspected that they might not know the official names of the places. Hence, here follows a somewhat pedantic but nonetheless highly accurate list of Chinese place names.

If anybody else hails from another country represented in Civ3 and knows of more accurate spellings of their native cities, then please feel free to post them here. Pedantry loves company.

Official names (old fashioned names)

Beijing (Peking), Guangzhou (Canton), Nanjing (Nanking), Qingdao (Tsingtao), Xinjiang (Xinjian), Hangzhou (Hangchow), Tianjin (Tientsin), Datong (Tatung), Shandong (Shantung), Jinan (Qinan), Baoding (Paoting).

Those are the names in-game. Following is a list of the modern day largest cities in China, which might deserve an honorary mention (and pull the game out of an 18th Century state of current affairs). I arbitrarily include comparative statistics with American cities to give a sense of proportion.

3million+: Beijing, Luda, Shenyang, Tianjin, Nanjing, Shanghai, Chongqing, Wuhan (home of Chairman Yang), Guangzhou.

(9 such cities in China, 6 such cities in USA - New York, Washington DC, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles)

1million-3million: Qiqihar, Harbin, Jilin, Changchun, Fushun, Benxi, Anshan, Dandong, Tangshan, Datong, Huhehaote, Baotou, Shijiazhuang, Taiyuan, Handan, Jinan, Qingdao, Zaozhuang, Zhengzhou, Xi'an, Baoji, Lanzhou, Xining, Huainan, Hefei, Changzhou, Hangzhou, Shaoxing, Huangshi, Wenzhou, Fuzhou, Nanchang, Changsha, Kaolun (Kowloon), Xiang Gang (Hong Kong), Guiyang, Kunming, Chengdu.

(38 such cities in China, 9 such cities in USA - Seattle, San Francisco, San Deigo, Phoenix, Dallas, Houston, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Boston)

If Firaxis can find the time to briefly skim through the lists and pick city names from those, they will lend a greater air of credence and recognizability to the game. This goes especially for the (probably very substantial) segment of Chinese or Chinese-American players like myself.

Anybody else want to suggest official Civ city names?
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Old July 20, 2001, 19:36   #2
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Well, I don't really have any comments to what you where talking about, but when we are in the city names area there's something that maybe needs to be told..:

I don't remember if the followering was the case in Civ2, but I saw it yesterday while playing CTP2. I played the Vikings and they could build a city named Bonholm, but in real world there's no "Viking" city named that way. Bonholm is an island not a city
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Old July 20, 2001, 20:04   #3
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Ah... Phoenix is actually 3+ million city. Believe I would know, I live in the Phoenix metropolatin area. The city I live in, Mesa, I believe is either the biggest or second biggest suburb in the country. It's bigger than St. Louis and is 20,000 people shy of Atlanta. JTLYK.
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Old July 20, 2001, 20:39   #4
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To ADG:

not that it really matters ... but to be accurate: The island is called Bornholm and not Bonholm.
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Old July 20, 2001, 20:43   #5
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perhaps you would like them writren in Chinese itself, and dependening on region, mandrian or cantonese.

i dont play as china, so i really could care less.

but hey, if you believe something, go for it
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Old July 20, 2001, 21:38   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by UberKruX
perhaps you would like them writren in Chinese itself, and dependening on region, mandrian or cantonese.
That would be nice, but then most English-speaking players wouldn't be able to refer to the cities

But seriously, this is just a small change, and so it's one that is really really easy for Firaxis to implement and just get right from the word go. Since most official texts (eg news reports) now refer to the cities and places by their modern names ("Beijing") and not their old names ("Peking") it would be nice to see Civ3 have these too.

It's just a suggestion, but if authenticity is what Firaxis want, then this should help that little bit more.
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Old July 20, 2001, 21:54   #7
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Quote:
But seriously, this is just a small change, and so it's one that is really really easy for Firaxis to implement and just get right from the word go. Since most official texts (eg news reports) now refer to the cities and places by their modern names ("Beijing") and not their old names ("Peking") it would be nice to see Civ3 have these too.
Kind of like how the Japanesse have Edo and not Tokyo. I do agree that the modern names should be implemented.
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Old July 20, 2001, 21:58   #8
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it should include some older city as well, Chang'an is now called Xi'an, but I prefer the older name, it was so famous.
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Old July 20, 2001, 22:33   #9
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It should be mentioned that Kowloon is most commonly knwn as only a district of HongKong so I don't think it would be too fair to include it.... Additionally, how the heck you can get a "X" sound from the Chinese version of Hong Kong is beyond me. Unless they used some non-English based traslation. I mean "zhou" actually sounds like what its supposed to sould like, and "Beijing" actually sounds like what its supposed to. Of course, I'd rather have the city names written out in Chinese, but that's just me.
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Old July 20, 2001, 22:47   #10
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Civ starts in the beginning of history. Personally i like the old names better but thats just me. They seem to be more in place than Bejjing and other more common names. I dont know about most but Peking is a much better name IMO. To me the old city names make it feal more......i dont know how to put it......ancient. And the new names out of place.
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Old July 20, 2001, 23:59   #11
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having city name written out in chinese is impossible, non-chinese player would not be able to tell which city it is.
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Old July 21, 2001, 00:17   #12
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Old July 21, 2001, 01:19   #13
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Well, to reflect the historical renaming of big cities over time --(Peking/Bejing, Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul, St. Petersburg/Petrograd/Leningrad/St. Petersburg, Saigon/Ho Chi Minh City) -- everytime a civilization changes governments there should be a 20% chance that one of its cities will change its name.

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Old July 21, 2001, 02:45   #14
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I think Alinestra Covelia has a valid point, and this post is not being taken very seriously. Firaxis should be consistent with their civs, and should be true to the historical names, in my opinion.

UberX: you said: "perhaps you would like them writren in Chinese itself, and dependening on region, mandrian or cantonese.

i dont play as china, so i really could care less. "

I don't know who you usually play as, but if I choose to play as the chinese all the time, and never play as your fav. civ, and I pay the same purchase price, aren't I entitled to the same quality in my civ, from the getgo, without having to alter files myself? (I can't help but wonder if this post would have been taken more seriously if the civ in question had been the Romans or something like that...)
The chinese characters idea is cheezy, I agree, but having the cities named in their native languages with a translation option or something would actually be a nice touch, and a painless one for the design team.
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Old July 21, 2001, 03:37   #15
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A neverending source of pedantry VIII
Quote:
Originally posted by FunkyGhost
To ADG:

not that it really matters ... but to be accurate: The island is called Bornholm and not Bonholm.
I don't think that Alinestra's the only pedant here.
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Old July 21, 2001, 22:51   #16
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yeah, and why are they spelling Mao Zedong, Mao Tse Tung?

what it is is Pinying vs wades guilles (s/p)

older version is wades guilles but the upgraded it to pinying because it more accurately represents the chinese words...

Beijing looks cooler than Peking and sound better too...

although alot of wades guilles is easier to say..
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Old July 22, 2001, 00:07   #17
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the other problem is that they dont put enough city names in the list, i know its easy to add your own via city.txt but fiiraxis should fix this with some more historicl citys for each civ...

Not that I use historicl names, i use my own custome ones every game,, like PHeasantVille or 2Whalecity
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Old July 22, 2001, 02:27   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by UberKruX
perhaps you would like them writren in Chinese itself, and dependening on region, mandrian or cantonese.
All Chinese dialects are written the same, just pronounced differently.

It isn't hard to change the city names yourself in Civ2. I corrected the German (Köln not Cologne, München not Munich, etc), French (Orléans not Orleans), Spanish (Sevilla not Seville), Russian (Moskva not Moscow, etc) and Greek (AthÃ*nai not Athens etc) city names.
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Old July 22, 2001, 09:23   #19
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Thanks for the support and further posts. Yes, I just revisited this thread to further rectify the two Chinese leaders' names:

As has been pointed out, Mao Zedong is the official way of referring to Mao Tse Tung.

"Wu Zhao" in Civ2 draws a blank with me. The only version I have heard is Wu Zhe Tian, but both spellings are perfectly valid PinYin and could well be variant names of the same female leader.

As far as validity goes, I argue that the Chinese themselves use PinYin, so we may as well use their method for increased authenticity. I acknowledge that Giles-Wade (sp?) system has been in use for a long time, but then again you should remember that much of the place names were drawn from Cantonese dialect, which is not the Chinese official dialect.

Many more people speak Mandarin than Cantonese. Most Guangzhou people understand Mandarin and Cantonese, but the same cannot be said for Beijing people, who have always known Mandarin but not Cantonese.

"Peking" is a case in point. The only dialect that pronounces the capital city by that name is the Cantonese, and even that is stretching the pronunciation a bit. (They pronounce it more like "Bucking" than "Peeking".) Whereas "Beijing" sounds exactly like how it ought to be pronounced: Bay-Jing. How you could get "Peeking" from that is beyond my limited imagination.

This may seem finicky to you, but I think it would be a matter of decorum and accuracy. For example, it would be a bit much to spell western city names in arbitrary and unofficial ways like "Lund'n", "Paree", and "Edinbra". To say nothing of "Love-bra" (Loughborough in UK).

In any case, a lot of people are familiar with these new names - probably 80% of the population of China. Changing systems from Wade-Giles to PinYin would make it much more accessible for people generally.

Again - hefty apologies for being a pedant. It's part of the genes
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Old July 23, 2001, 04:20   #20
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I think the spelling of Hong Kong and Kowloon should be left alone since they are too well known to be changed.

Also Bejing in Cantonese is more along the lines of "Buck-g'ink." "G'ink" is what you get when you pronounce "g" and "ink" at the same time


Shadowstrike,

"X" in pinyin is pronounced like "zh" in English IIRC.
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Old July 23, 2001, 06:55   #21
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JellyDonut has the solution. When I started playing, I went through the cities.txt file and changed the "Viking" and "German" cities to more familar and properly-spelled names.

The problem of city names isn't just with China but with every civilization that doesn't have English as a native tongue. Of course Civilization is written in English so therefore it uses the English spelling/pronunciation for names. Since the cities are founded in the BC era, it makes no sense to see Beijing, Istanbul or Leningrad.

But, as mentioned above, this is something that the individual has FULL CONTROL to change themselves. This is not something that FIRAXIS should be dealing with. They need to concentrate on improving the AI !!!!
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Old July 23, 2001, 07:30   #22
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I support the use of historical names that were accurate at the time the city was founded. Use of the Anglicised names is a lesser point. With the ability to edit the city lists and the use of a rename button inside the game it seems more like nitpicking. Leave the city lists unchanged from Civ 2 unless someone has some free time on their hands after the beta testing...
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Old July 23, 2001, 08:19   #23
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I have also thought something needs doing with the names of the English cities. There are the major, large cities: London, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle, Sheffield, Bristol, Nottingham, Leicester, Hull, Bradford, Southampton, Coventry, Brighton, Stoke-on-Trent.

We also have historically important although not-so-large centres such as York, Oxford, Cambridge, Lincoln, Salisbury, Winchester.

Other cities that are worthy of inclusion are Sunderland, Carlisle, Preston, Blackpool, Shrewsbury, Gloucester, Luton, Taunton, Plymouth, Exeter, Bournemouth, Reading, Northampton, Norwich, Derby, Wolverhampton, Crewe or Durham.

Some silly places were included on Civ2. I have always thought Dover was ridiculous (high in both civ and civ2) considering it is a poxy little ferry port with famous 'cliffs'. Same with Richmond. I mean come on, this is a small town in the middle of North Yorkshire. Several major cities have been omitted from the Civ2 list, included is my home city (Hull) or other historically important places such as Lincoln or Winchester.
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Old July 23, 2001, 08:40   #24
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Yeah!

And why is Washington (built in the early 1800's) and New York (or Nieuw Amsterdam - a pitty little Dutch trading post until the Brits "acquired" it) ahead of Boston (1629)?

And where is Plimouth (1620), Jamestown (1609), St. Augustine (1565), Charlesfort (1565) and/or Santa Fe (1607)? These were the first cities of the "American civilization".

Chicago? Give me a break. There should be a built in limit for any city called Chicago against growing above size 2 before the discovery of Railroad.
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Old July 23, 2001, 09:58   #25
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Sure, just because Ming lives there...
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Old July 23, 2001, 11:22   #26
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Quote:
But, as mentioned above, this is something that the individual has FULL CONTROL to change themselves. This is not something that FIRAXIS should be dealing with. They need to concentrate on improving the AI !!!!
Well, I could understand this point of view if I were suggesting something very hard to implement, such as a Mandarin character script or maybe Russian Cyrillic script.

But as it is, all they need to do is change some spellings. This would make the game that bit more accurate, and it could be done in about 2 minutes of their time.

As it is, every time I or my friends install the game, I go into the txt file and change it to make it officially correct. I don't mind doing this, but I just thought Firaxis could spare the two minutes once so I don't have to do it every time.

Sorry if that sounds picky to you. But then again, I think your cities have every right to be properly spelled too. Maybe you don't agree - that's fine.
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Old July 23, 2001, 12:23   #27
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Just be grateful you weren't playing civ where the Chinese capital was Peking and you couldn't edit it
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Old July 23, 2001, 12:38   #28
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The Chinese cities in Civ are at least different cities.

What can you say about list of Russian cities where the same city could be included with different names - e.g. Tblisi and Tiflis?
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Old July 23, 2001, 12:43   #29
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Are they one and the same? I never realised that!

One city appears 3 times in various guises:

York (English)
Eburacum (Roman)
Jorvik (Viking)
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Old July 23, 2001, 20:32   #30
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Or just copy the file to a disk or via the network if you have one. I've reinstalled civ2 twice when I reinstalled windows on my computer. I usually just change the name to whatever I want when I found the city. It takes 2 seconds and works just fine.

Quote:
Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia


Well, I could understand this point of view if I were suggesting something very hard to implement, such as a Mandarin character script or maybe Russian Cyrillic script.

But as it is, all they need to do is change some spellings. This would make the game that bit more accurate, and it could be done in about 2 minutes of their time.

As it is, every time I or my friends install the game, I go into the txt file and change it to make it officially correct. I don't mind doing this, but I just thought Firaxis could spare the two minutes once so I don't have to do it every time.

Sorry if that sounds picky to you. But then again, I think your cities have every right to be properly spelled too. Maybe you don't agree - that's fine.
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