Announcing! Aldebaran 1.beta.1 (prerelease notes)

[Avenoct]

Tokamak, good to see you back. Ah, na, going to keep the Vats as there is one faction that either needs them or GA to boom. Seeing as the AI doesn't GA very well.....

Well, it's good to see you both back on the forums. It's going to take me a bit to digest your feedback Cybergod, but at first glance I think I can make a few comments. Oh, and congrats on moving into your new digs. Can I come over?

First off, thanks for the detailed report! Second, yeah, there are a few things which, all though humorous, probably go too far. Heck, the whole 'Propaganda section' of SE is probably offensive to someone. But compromise is good here, as long as it's not too soft.

Second. The tech graphics. Go for it!

Third. The overall graphics and factions. Nice honest feedback. Not sure if you read the 'Writer's Package' at all, but there I woefully admit that though there is a nice story for Zak and the Galactics, and even a few others, they certainly aren't finished. Also, the graphics are temporary you nut! Oh, and The Network Node has agreed to let us use whatever graphics / stories, etc., as long as credit is given where it is due.

I could defend the Syndicate, but it's a long story. They were a very close match (in looks and name) to the idea I had with Yang's minister of economics.

Oh, by the way, before you go off making up better stories, just know that Kassiopeia is doing the same, and not everybody can be right.

Yes to a Lara Croft type pic for the Outlaws. Matt D. is also looking for a pic for that faction.

I've heard back that the Galactic (and by default for now Univ.) leader pic is from some video game? Anyways, we'll need an original pic for them, not one lifted from a recognizeable source.

On rebalancing the factions. Well, this is what will take me a bit to digest. All I can say at first glance is: Good ideas, BUT, . It sounds like you are playing the Beta.5. The growth situation is a bit different in later versions. Ah, all AI factions cause ecodamage in the first 100 years, at least on Transcend or Thinker Level. This is a good thing. I can explain if you like. I'll get back to you about the other things you suggest. Basically I think you are viewing things 'Holisticly', trying to balance out the graphics with the story with the gameplay. The angle I'm taking is getting the gameplay really working well and balanced, then working on the look and feel of the game, from graphics to background story, etc..

Enough for now. I'll be posting the latest beta update in an hour or so. I've been flip-flopping the availability of crawlers just to play from different angles. I think I have it worked out. The major problem with late crawlers is that on Transcend the human will NOT get any early projects. The only way on that level is by force. Let the AI build them and then take them. But I think this is balanced by the fact that eventually the human does get crawlers, and using them well, might survive a hundred and 20 years or so. Also, finished the help text, but I won't include it as it crashes my OS, not sure why. And finished playing with the psi vs. normal weapons trees. The AI now actually uses the Psi branch.

-Smack

[Kassiopeia]

Umm.... advances on Story front reported... Sidney, Brionin and their friends are en route to Aldebaran now... Do you want to read it so far, it's pretty much following the Writer's Package readme. Now the hard part starts, hammering out the Chironian/Galactican conflict and the mysterious unveiling of the superrace... or something... Cybergod, if you have anything to say, go for it!
EDIT: Unless someone is already writing the techlongs, I have done some of it when I've had nothing else to do (That is, quite often

[Avenoct]

Kass, the new names for the faction leaders have my blessing. They sound good. As to the part 1 of the story, mind sending it to me first? I'd just want to be sure it doesn't contradict any potential future scenarios, etc.. After that, if you'd like to post it on the fiction threads, that'd be great! You've been productive. I'm glad you mentioned the tech-longs again. I havn't gone back to them yet. If you want to finish them off, go for it, otherwise, send me a list of the ones you have worked on, or are working on so I can go work on different ones.

With Cybergod back (and hopefully working on some graphics? nudge nudge) we may indeed be close to a public release of the beta. Should we time that with the release of the story? I think that's up to you Kass. Or perhaps we should let the story develop a bit so we can hijack clips from it for the interludes? Just thinking out loud.

The Nauticons. Aye, they are boring, especially their temporary base names. Basically I wanted a faction that would be able to exploit the sea from the get go. The terraforming of the sea is much improved on Aldebaran and I wanted to give players a chance to exploit that. The background story for them is kind of funny (the Spartan Submarine commander, etc.) but they need a bit more 'umph'. What is their plan for Aldebaran? How do they feel about the other factions?

The Peaceniks: Egad, that was just a temporary name! If you come up with something else, let's by all means use it!

The Planetlovers: Again, temporary name. Even 'New Gaians' might be better. Waiting for brilliant renaming......anyone?

The Outlaws: As you know, that's just a nickname for the UNF..the United Noncomplicity Front. But if a better name/concept comes along, by all means, let's have it!

Look for Beta.8 in a few minutes...it'll include just the alphatext update.

[Edit: Got the story. Great work Kassiopeia! As we discussed in email, I think it's ready for release on the fiction threads. We can put a link to it here easily. Also, let's think about other places we can publish it! To the Beta group, if there is a delay in releasing the story, you all should get a copy...Kass makes my nutty ideas seem pretty good and adds so much to the plot.

One final note....a tweak to the AI if you'd like, ignore it if you'd rather just wait for the next beta, which as we know will happen before too long.: Change the tech in alphatext 'Tacit2' to increase the AI's interest....the 4 AI influencers should be 8, 8, 8, 8 instead of 1, 1, 4, 1.

Note Two (later): going to push 'Planet Labs' back a bit as the AI seems to think they are wonderful infrastructure. This should shave off 3-5 turns before the AI is ecodamaging. Also, I'll probably just stick to posting these minor tweaks here and withold the next beta, as I said, till feedback comes in. Also, I'll rename Eugenics to Genetics for 'Practical Genetics'

Note Three: Midnight. Yawn . Have tuned down the peacekeeper industry one notch, hindered them a little bit with efficiency as well. Helping along the new Gaians (planetlover), though I am going to keep their growth penalty. Originally they were way overpowered, and after the Syndicate, are my favorite faction to play. The planetlab pushed back worked miracles. In the most recent auto-game I've run, the AI was ecodamaging in 50 years. All this goes for naught though once they find some reason to go to war with each other. Cybergod, by the way, where would you have the specialists placed? And news on the tech-longs...looks like Kass and I will work something up for that. If anyone would care to give my precarious helptext a try, it needs a tune up rather badly. Whenever I click on 'all-categories' of help, the game crashes. That's the news.-Smack

The AI and factions are getting pretty close to balanced. I'll wait for another round of feedback before I suggest that we prepare to release the beta.]

-Smack::

[Velociryx]

Hi guys! It was a productive weekend indeed, though I see that I’m pretty far behind where testing is concerned.

I suspect that since we’re now up to beta 8, many of my comments regarding SE settings and factions have already been covered/addressed and changed, but there are a few comments I’ll make now, and then download the latest version to see what’s new!

First off, great mod! It’s quite a lot of fun to play, and I find myself really jazzed at being generally bewildered about where things are in the tree!

One thing I found myself chaffing at was the inability to build roads without researching a tech first. I can certainly see how it helps the AI, as it pretty much forces them to plant forest seeds, but from a game-logic pov, I was a little confused by it….(found myself thinking: What? We suddenly forgot how to build roads?) Then again, I’m a big fan of roads, so mostly, it was me panicking at not being able to get my colony pods speeded to their build sites…lol

Second thing, my experiences with TF’s was dramatically different…..once I saw that all I could do was forest, and once I saw how early I could get TF’s, once I had the tech, I’d set a newly built base to build a TF as their first build. True, it DID slow my expansion, and I didn’t snag as many projects as I do in SMAX, but I still got the ones I really wanted, and because my growth was slower (thanks to the very early investment in TF’s), my position on the power chart was lower (I was “wanting” or “sufficient” for much of the early game) – this had the side effect of making it very easy for me to keep good relations with the other groups….I wasn’t running away with the game, so the other factions were content to play nice. I actually got more techs in trade than I did via my own research, and once those TF’s were in place, I pretty much exploded off the chart (though it was nip and tuck for a while….my little bases had a devil of a time paying upkeep for the expensive facilities, but once they kicked up to size three, it was all gravy!).

So….considering how early TF’s come, I’d make them even more expensive, increase maintenance, or something to prevent a human player from ‘sploding ahead of the AI’s.

I’ll dl the latest beta and take it home with me to see how she plays, but so far, I’m loving it!

-=Vel=-

[Avenoct]

Ah well good! I was wondering what would happen if someone actually tried to build tree farms at their bases in the early game. Looks like that might be a good way to come out gangbusters and rip through the AI. Its the one strategy-general I can't manipulate the AI around: Stay low until you know you can win. The AI will attack the strongest, especially on Transcend. It plays pretty roughly with a human that starts strongly and gets stronger, but if the human stays relatively small (ie building tree-farms for however many turns) the AI might even solicit the human player to go gang up on the big AI in the jungle. Then when the player has all they need to start a war, they can surprise the dim-witted AI with an agression from one of the previously ignored (by the AI) small factions.

TF's were originally pretty far back, but as I got the AI to ecodamage earlier and earlier, I felt that TF's should be in their arsenel of responses. As it is, about every third auto-game i run, the AI will ecodamage and then start TF's, eventually moving on to build Parks if they continue ecodamaging. In other games the vary building parks and tree farms, and in a few games they build tree farms too early...ie before ecodamage. This is great to see, but!!! I think it's a bit too early. I'd rather have the AI build parks or take some worm-damage than encourage players to slow down their growth. [Er, what I mean is, slow down in the short term only to emerge so quickly in the long term that the AI can't counter]

Roads. Yes, it's frustrating. I wonder if it should be changed back, considering the AI ignores this rule? Also considering 'You mean we have to learn how to build roads?'. Sure, there could be some plot explanation, like...the horrible acidic rainfall, combined with lack of native resources..blah blah..

So to reply to these points Vel: You hit one two important things right away...excellent! Both have been changed back and forth trying to find the perfect balance. As I think about it, again in a new light, I think TF's should be pushed back again---to just beyond Human Ecology. And roads? Who knows. In a way it's nice to have to think about whether to start making roads now (study the tech), or something even more important. At least the tech for roads is important in a lot of other ways too, so it's not just a 'road tech'. Let's get a bit more feedback on roads.

[Edit1: Ah, well I see I already made roads free and Treefarms require Tacit1 and Aldebaran environments. I think those changes made it into the last beta. Still, TF's could be even further back. I've been toying with the 'passive' setting for factions. At the moment, only the Galactics are set to 'erratic', with the rest passive. This appears to differ wildly between Thinker level and Transcend. On Transcend, the AI, once alarmed, switches to all-military production no matter what the setting. This is too bad, but hopefully this will not happen in most Transcend games until the AI factions have already built a large portion of their infrastructure. On Thinker level, the AI behaves quite well, dividing it's production between military and infrastructure during times of Vendetta.- Smack]

-Smack

PS. Feel free to play 'as if' tree farms came later, until the next beta is released.

[Avenoct]

Beta Group and whoever else be on the ship for Aldebaran, Kassiopeia just finished posting the introductory chapters to 'Aldebaran'. Here's the thread:
Aldebaran

Whoo hoo!

-Smack

[Cybergod]

Great stuff Kasiopeia! I can't wait for the next chapters.

Smack, I did not get Beta updates number 6 and 7 (I got number 8 after I made the "cyberfix" though). But, unless you were tweaking with the factions, it doesn't matter.

I've been working hard on the faction graphics . No, seriously! I just need some help: should we keep Zakharov's face as the leader of the Universali? What about Nauticon? (I'd like a less shadowy face for them) I got some great graphics from the internet for the rest. BTW Smack, the face for the Galactic Alliance is from the System Shock 2 game - the evil AI called Shodan . I am asking other beta testers whether they are happy with her face (I am changing their symbol - it's rubbish this way!) OR you want this face, at the bottom of this post (basically, it is the face of a character from a sci-fi series called "Farscape" (www.farscape.com) and here it is! The big blue bald-headed bit** herself! ):

[Kassiopeia]

I haven't decided yet, but I think Zakharov is going to get into a slight state of consciusness, and somehow Sydney and Brionin could keep him at least as a puppet leader if nothing else. So, i think Zak's image should be kept (Just the opinion of the author ) He would be at least reminding the people of Chiron IMHO.

And I noticed SHODAN, it freaked me out because that was the first comp games I played and I still sometimes have nightmares of it. Damn it's a good game! All those hidious aliens lurking around...

New chapter is finished BTW, thank you Cybergod

[Avenoct]

Ok, I had wondered about whether the Beta's were going to everyone. I'll send them individually from now on as my batch-group mailer doesn't seem to be working properly.

Next chapter? New graphics? Awesome. I really like the feel of this being a group effort. It's much more satisfying than trying to do everything oneself.

Er, Cybergod, CAN we use graphics from private sources like that? I think we might need permission! I wonder if we can come up with public-access free-for-all graphics? I know it's easier to just swipe them (the commercial graphics) from the net, but there has to be a way to either get permission or find 'original' sources. Besides which, do we really want to associate the game with these other games/ TV shows? Personally, I don't...but if I'm out-voted here, I'll back off.

So, I'll send out a Beta.9 to everyone in a bit. Sorry if the 5-8 didn't reach everyone. Things are up to snuff as far as game play. I can beat the AI on Thinker, but not on Transcend. Still, I'd like some help from the masters (Vel, Blake, Toka? Not to say the rest of us arent' fine players...) in making things a little more tough, without breaking the game engine.

That bald-headed empath...hehe...it's a great TV show, were you going to use her for Awen? I'm thinking of a rougish and tough woman for her (read, sexy). Oh, if you don't want to use the dark-character for the Nauticon (need a new name!) maybe I'll use him for an alternate faction. I'm thinking of releasing a full alternate set of factions with the game, to help people make the game they want.

-Smack

[Kassiopeia]

If there is going to be a "vote" using the SHODAN graphics, I'll say that it scares me so much that I'll Abstain on a "voting". I'm not even a "legitimate" beta tester, just the story author.

[Cybergod]

I'd really like Shodan as the head of the Galactic Alliance (it's getting too long to write it all - I'm writing just G.A. from now on)! Oh well, I already have her as a leader of another faction that I have sent to ther Network Node. If not Shodan, maybe the leader should be the blue bit** whose picture I already posted...

Smack, it is legal if you give the source a call and you mention them in your readme file or something. They would sure let you! BTW, here is a pictureI had planned to be the leader of the Outlaws (again from www.farscape.com), I had a shot of just her head for the portrait - god knows what she was doing with Crichton!:

[Avenoct]

Egad, that's hilarious! The dress and looks are a match in my mind, but the pose !

Well, good point, people DO use graphics from commercial sources all the time. Let's see what the rest of the group has to say, if they're alive?

-Smack

Forgot to say that I like the graphic for the Galactics (the face), but since they are supposedly human, it might be best to save it for the super-race? Cybergod, did you get the plot-background? If not, I'll send you a copy..They will be appearing in Scenario 3.

P.S. The Beta 1.9 was just sent out. A word of warning..Don't click on either 'all categories' or 'techs' from the help screen. This has never worked since I started this, and I can't seem to fix it.

[Kassiopeia]

I have never seen Farscape (Damn Finnish TV Channels! First they show the door to Star Trek TNG, then to ST Voyager, then to every other good scifi series like X-Files, and then they don't air Farscape!) but that picture seems just right. And maybe the superrace could be somehow cybernetic (That allowes the author to use William Gibson!) and joined up in a hunk of AI. SHODAN would serve that purpose well, maybe we could name the race as the "Many" But we do need a human-looking human female to "play" as Empress Donatella Riley. And a female to do Shera Nehred. And we need Skipp, and... Gosh, that's up to you Cgod I guess.

[Avenoct]

Hmm, without giving away too much on this 'public' thread, I think that idea for the super-race might work fine....There is in the Smac general concept, a convergeance of technology with super-consciousness in the form of Transcendence anyways; that the super-race would aquire this from the tech-end rather than the solely-biological is perfectly possible in the plot. I think I'll write up some ideas for that and send 'em your way Kass. I'm sure you have some of your own too.

-Smack

P.S. Cybergod, mind editing the download off your post? It's not supposed to be available yet, even in fragments. -Smack

[Blake]

Well, turned out that at the start of the weekend I got addicted to a new game (Jump Gate), and well, the jumpgate playing weekend ended on wedensday (oops). Anyway, I played a game on Huge map of Aldebaran, as Skipp.

Firstly, I agree that faction is over-powered, and in fact the pressure dome has exactly the oppisite effect to what was desired - because sea cities no longer come with a "free" pressure dome, (well they do, but land cities get one too...) it made the land cities even more attractive than sea cities. Prehaps give free naval yards? That way they would get the best navies from the word go.

I regret to say that I owned the AI (this is Thinker), starting with a rapid expansion to about 18 bases, building rec commons, then tree farms. I pod-boomed the HQ to size 5 and started building a SP, which eventually became the Greatest Game.
, I got the shroud guild (at about 2370), then called govoner, my pop was twice that of the next closest AI, and because half the gimp AI's pacted with me I completely cleaned up the election. Then I called a tract pact, that got accepted too. And with my 3 pacts, 3 treaties I was making 140 credits a turn.

At about 2380 I got my first pop, then a heap more, because I built all the treefarms before forcing a pop, then I built a heap of genejacks which created quite a lot of ED at quite a lot of bases... I re-built a few tree farms, and also some empath hovertanks just in case...

The AI did manage to get a reasonble number of SP's (altough I could have had my choice of the Bank, Dozer Factory, People Factory, Greatest game). My strategy to hurry the SP's was firstly to build heaps of rover formers, and disbanding them (and most of my old formers) into the SP bases. Once I go shrouds I started building non-stop shroud-tanks and disbanding them to hurry SP's. This pretty means that any SP which comes my way is mine, crawlers or no disbanding is a very powerfull method to accelerate SP production (in original SMAC I used it with Yang so I could snag the WP or HGP). Unfortunately aint nothin' you can do about this, because making the SP's more expensive would just hurt the AI's more, and IRRC there isn't a variable for %age returned when disbanding.

Things I noticed:
Forest n' forget is highly effective, I definetely reccomend making other terraforming slightly cheaper so it can compete - remember that forest spreads by itself, so forest has a high built in 'discount'... an additional thing to do could be making formers more expensive, so the infantry former costs 30 instead of 20. Also, I have to wonder if the nut restriction lifting should come earlier... so farms can better compete with the 2-2-1 forest tiles. Though the tech it is on is just so appropriate (possible solution, put soil enricher on Gastric Frontiers, rename soil enricher "Cultivate Aldbaran crops","Aldbaran crops" or something..., on that note the kelp enricher still has no key bound, gotta use the menu)

(I just had a strange idea, change forest to 0-2-2, making it a source of construction materials and fuel, but not food until tree farms, would make farms a heck of a lot better, this doesn't fit in Aldebaran though)

Pacifist AI's: They are pathetic when it comes to pacting, indeed I imagine a human player should have no need to build any military... with the reduced need for military prehaps facilities should be made more expensive... but doing so would make it more attractive to simply overrun the AI with an offensive rush, hmmmm...

I really like the way you changed orbitals to matter-transmitter type thingies.

I'll continue playing this game tommorow or something, to play with the rest of the tech tree (which I must say is vastly improved over Beta1), but the AI is not that much a challenge for a veteran SMAC player... (atleast you dont have to worry about the AI beating up players , indeed quite the oppisite because they tend to play nice).

[Kassiopeia]

I scribbled up some new name propositions for the Nauticons, though these aren't any better then the original one if not worse.

- Submariners
- Planet/Star/Space Marines
- Aquanauts
- Aquamarines
- Neospartans

Planetlovers:

- Planetfriends
- Deirdreans
- Servants (of Planetmind)
- Mindkeepers
- Planetkeepers

[Avenoct]

Blake,

I figured something like a new game must have happened . Ah, well, your feedback is still quite useful.

I think there is a grey-matter ceiling for the AI, and it's kinda in the basement.

I've now run 64 full-auto games with the AI, and played half-way through 4 myself, since starting this project. There's a big difference between the two. Three major stumbling blocks:

1. When the AI is passive, playing by itself, it does incredibly well, at least compared to Smac. As I've said, ecodamaging in 50 years in some cases, focusing well on tech (had labs at 650 labs/turn in 150 years from one faction), and generally having a ball. This falls apart when war starts however, as the involved AI's switch to wartime production, which crushes them. This happy state is also, as you've mentioned, too easy to abuse for the Veteran. Last night I turned the corner on a Transcend game vs. the AI. Because one of the AI had the jungle, the other factions were willing to continue a war against them that I manufactured by framing that faction. It's too easy to make treaties with the laid-back AI, then to use those treaties more effectively than the AI.

2. AI will never prioritize research as a human will, nor will it be able to upgrade, use the disband trick, rebuild eco-damage reducing facs (though it builds them well enough), or of course, use crawlers.

3. I've needed some sort of factory for the AI, and some sort of eco-damage reducing fac early, to help them get their minerals up to snuff around the time the human gets crawlers. While it works to some degree, the human can use these facs even better than the AI.

Your report r/e tree farms matches Vel's, and though I've not tried it (I usually wait on the buggers till I get my crawler-minerals going), I think we're going to have to solve it, as well as the Direct Control Unit. I propose either pushing the TF's back and/or banning the human use of the DCU factory. The AI will build Planetparks when it ecodamages, but that's ok. It tends to do fine with farms for food at this point. Do you think these restrictions would help?

This is the second time you've brought up the terraforming costs...I'm going to have to do something with that. It is different now, but apparently not enough so. I'm starting to like the 0-2-1 or 0-2-2 idea. The human exploits the forest better than the AI, still! Argh! At least the AI now terraforms pretty much the best that it possibly can...mixing forest with farms....ah the pastoral landscape...not unlike NZ eh Blake? Then of course it gets solar, and then mines which ruins the pretty picture, but ah well. I might also experiment with really cheap..like 1 turn terraforming. Since the human has the tendency to make more formers, perhaps this will limit that strategy? I've had games where 1/2 the AI's have more terraformers than bases though, and that was one of my goals, which succeeded...seems that when the AI isn't getting enough of something, it builds a terraformer, so on dry maps before Gastric Frontiers, it builds lots of terraformers. Mutter.

Soil Enrichers are already on Gastric Frontiers, or so they should be...

I think I'll also experiment a bit with more agressive factions vs. pacifist ones...see how I, as a human do in both environments.

Kassiopeia, my pick would be 'Aquanauts' (or the current Nauticons) and 'Servants of Planet' or 'Planetkeeprs' from that grouping. What does everyone else think? Anyone with a navy background? I need basenames for the Nauti's.

Some general notes:

1. It appears that I might just have to make two sets of factions. One for the player and one for the AI. This will largely solve the problems of the 'grey-matter ceiling'. Simply, at the start of a game, once you'd decided what faction you'd like to play, you'd reload the 'player version' faction, which would have the stats that the current factions now have (with some slight changes yet to come), and perhaps even be a little weaker (say make tech-rate slower, or rushbuild penalties as in the Syndicate). The AI factions would have major boosts to research, growth, industry. This is a pretty inelegant solution. When a player is playing vs. these AI super-factions, it's going to be sadly obvious how much the AI is cheating! Perhaps these AI factions could be bundled with tougher human factions for a Veteran's Edition? What do you think?

2. I'd really like to release the public beta soon. Cybergod, how soon do you think you can mock up some graphics? Also, if anyone cares to take a peek at the help-text situation...I just wish that were stable.

3. Have any of you noticed the increase in hills and rivers? Also, has anyone played with artillery yet? Together these make for fun warfare, IMO.

4. In light of Blake's and Vel's feedback, expect TF's to be moved back. Also, I'm thinking it should be ok to ban player use of the DCU factory and the 'disband' trick. The AI doesn't use the disband 'feature', so this seems fair. The DCU could be seen as an AI facility, that's what it's there for. Again, inelegant, damn.

Oh, by the way, I even tried making the drones it creates to '-2', but alas, I can't make it a drone-control factory.

5. Been experimenting with early and weakened cookie-cutter choppers, including a transport chopper, but can't get it to work properly...I'll let you know.

6. The kelp-enricher should work...but not sure why it doesn't...like a soil enricher, it has the same key-code as a farm, 'f'. Occasionally the AI sea-formers get stuck doing nothing, and I think it's b/c this doesn't work properly. Will try to fix this.

That's the news! Thanks for the feedback and work! Please let me know if my Beta-posting is annoying your email inbox.

-Smack

[Blake]

By "ban the use of..." DCU and Disband trick, do you mean just telling players not to use them?

On terraforming:
On the whole, other than the new tech tree it seems the exact same strategies from SMAC work in Aldebaran (forest n' forget..), if you want to make the game new experience then changing how the terraforming works would be one option... unfortunately it would require a new round of testing. If you decide to change the terraforming then it could be changed to favour the AI, the most important change being:

Forest:
1,2,1 -> 0,2,2
Do you eat trees? Well, in New Zealand nothing grows in forests that is terribly edible (other than birds), and I believe this is the case in most countries - food comes from farms and the sea, resources come from mines and forests. Indeed the fastest growing trees (conicals) tend to destroy any underlying plant life, making the land only usefull for the trees. Also only the hardiest trees would survive the alien landscape, and fruit trees usually aren't very hardy.

From a gameplay point of view the AI's tendency to build farms would heed it well, because farms become essintial for growth.

Farms: These would have to come early, maybe available from the start.
Mines: These would still come with mineral restriction lifting (altough the farm/mine combo isn't so bad when forests dont produce food).
Solars: Whenever, basically once you have farms you start wanting to put things on them, like solars.

Rec tanks: 2-1-1 or 2-0-2
I struggle to think of usfull things you can build from grandpas corpse, Rec tanks would probably produce fertilizer to improve food production. The decompisition process also generates usfull energy.


Treefarms: These could still come reasonably early.
With the advent of tree farms ways are found of introducing native Aldebaran edibles into the forests, making more effective use of the land.


With the advent of gastic frontiers native edibles can be re-introduced to farmland, improving productivity (prehaps earth plants dont fare too well in the aldebaran enviroment, but at time of landing they dont know how to process aldebaran plants, hence the nut restrictions).
Possible name for soil enricher: "Aldebaran Edibles", "Aldebaran Crops", "Native Edibles", "Subsurface Farm", "Underground cavern", "Fungal Farm". The order would be "Cultivate", "Construct" or "Plant".

(prehaps these native edibles actually grow underground, like earthly truffles, which is why they can be grown in the same land as earth plants)

Just some ideas...

[Avenoct]

So I went ahead and made a set of AI factions that are pretty powerful. They look like the human-player version, but have bonuses to techrate, industry, and in some cases economy or growth. So far, this looks good. Also, have slowed general research rate to 80 percent of normal. I'm going to now test 'freeforming' just really cheap terraforming, to see how the AI handles it, and then I'm going to try setting the AI factions to 'Erratic' and then 'Aggressive' and play against them.

Blake, I'm starting to like this 'Aldebaran Edibles' thing! You might get a terrform named after you: 'The Blake Xenophagi Improvement' or somesuch.

As to the practical applications...not sure...this will need testing, but I think I can do some of this with 'auto-games' and varying the terraform costs and availability. If it seems better than what we've got, we'll then have to player-test it.

I don't know why I'm so attached to the AI using Trees. It just seems there must be some way to have them make nice forests and then kick human butt! I suppose this will just take more experimenting.

I did mean simply a rule whereby players aren't allowed to use the DCU or the Disband strategy. I know one of the fun parts of beating an AI strat game is finding the weaknesses and exploiting them, but for lack of a better avenue....the only other thing to do would be to make the drones from the DCU something huge, like 4, and then give all AI factions 'TALENT, 2' or something.

Ramble ramble...need to get those auto-games underway. How do you feel about the separation of AI versions for factions, and Human versions? It's really not hard to do, its just the aesthetic is wrong.

Oh, I've got the choppers to work, so now there are several 'weak' choppers available earlier as cookie-cutter types. There's an air-defense chopper, a Transport chopper (very fun), and later, a weak assault chopper. They don't move very far, but add a new dimension to the battlefield, which is already better (I think).

That's all for now,

Smack

[Blake]

Whoa, be carefull how you use my name, I dont want it to imply I'm edible or something

On that note I forgot to mention I'd prefer the Mesa be called "Blakes Plateo" (sp?) or "Blakes Mesa", or "Blakes Highland". 'The Blake' implies that the mesa thingy is actually Blake, which is just wrong.

Just for my personal amusment (and others befuddlement) dont suppose the place names "Renwick", "Blenheim", "Marlborough" or "Canterbury" could be slipped into the huge map of Aldebaran or one of the scenerios, they are respectivly the two closest towns to where i live, and the two provinces in which I live.


More on names, altough they are really boring people some of my computer science lecturers have rather strange names.

Professor Tadao Takaoka
Dr Wolfgang Kreutzer
Dr Krzysztof Pawlikowski
Dr Antonija Mitrovic
Richard Pascoe
Carl Cerecke
Warwick Irwin

So if ever short of first/last names for people in factions / stories you might like to give my dull lecturers a thought .

Onto more serious business *ahem*
AI super-factions are a good idea, the SE bonuses AI benefit from most are support, economy, industry, I'd advise staying away from Growth, if only because it makes the AI's bigger bases more attractive targets for conquest, and big bases are a more obvious sign of cheating than smaller more powerfull bases. If you give the AI +2 or +3 support it should pretty much eliminate the mineral-eating support problems when they go into military mode.

The naming convention for AI factions should probably be have an X on the end for AI factions, so if for example the human faction was 'peace.txt' the AI would be 'peaceX.txt', in the veteran alpha.txt the 'X' factions are loaded by default, and the human reloads the non-X version, in the standard version the standard factions are loaded, and if the player wishes to fight tough enemies reloads the X versions (if a player doesn't copy the veteran alpha.txt they dont need to worry about super factions at all).



On pop-booming, I notice one SE has +4 growth, are you sure it's a good idea to have an SE used specifically for pop-booming? I would lean towards eliminating the possibilty of pop-boom altogether, or the pop-boom SE should have more servere penalites, maybe -3 effic , -5 police, making pop-booming a very painfull experience, in effect crippling the economy and military for the duration of the boom.
The lack of pop-boom would encourage steady growth, and would give the human one less tool for wrapping up the game.

[Avenoct]

Beta 2.1 sent.

Here's the Readme for 2.1, skip to the end for additional discussion.

Dear Beta Group,

Well, after a TON of testing, and taking recent testing by Blake esp. into consideration, I've made 'the split' as I call it. More on that in a second. I think I should step aside here and mention that one of the goals of Aldebaran is to make the AI play as darn near as well as it possibly can. This is for increased fun in general: When you see that AI aircraft carrier pull up, you'll know what I mean! But it's also because the very best Smac players need new challenges, while those of us in the middle (and I consider myself here) can simply play up or down a level, depending on what kind of game we desire. I don't know anyone who HAS to play on the easiest level, well except for my pet goldfish.

This is a 'full install' minus the graphics. Some faction names have changed slightly, so these might not overwrite all the old ones...as before, dump all these files into the place you keep Aldebaran.

That said, I'll explain 'the split'. It's not as elegant as the other improvements to the game, such as finally getting the AI to do some terraforming, etc., but it helps a lot....

The Split

Basically, there are now factions for the AI, and factions for the player. It's not as complex as it sounds. As a player, all you need do is load the appropriate 'version' of the faction you choose to play. Otherwise, it will default to the supercharged AI faction of the same name. The player versions of the factions remain normal, while the AI factions get the suffix 'ai'.

So, to load your player faction for say the Planetlovers:

1. Get your game set up as usual, then when you've selected the Planetlovers, click 'Load Faction'.

2. You'll get a prompt with the Planetlover-AI codename highlighted to show you this is the current faction: it'll say 'PLANETLOVERAI'.

3. Remove the 'AI' part, and say ok. That's it.

[4. You as the beta group will need to rename and duplicate the graphics for the factions. It would be silly to send them again. Basically, match up a graphics file with each faction file. Note: The names have been cleaned up a bit. None end in vowels, and none are plural, so change that accordingly.]

The nuts and bolts of the split: The factions are similar to their Human counterparts, but have various boosts to research, growth, industry, and/or economy. Some of their weaknesses have gone. Also, all the AI factions have faster techrates than the human versions. Obviously, you can open the files if you'd like to see the exact modifications.


Other New Features for Beta 2.0

Choppers! There are three new choppers: The Transport Chopper, The Air-Defense Chopper, and the Light Assault Chopper. They are available at different points in the game, and the AI actually uses them. So can you! If you know how to 'cheat' the design workshop and retroengineer the chassis, don't!

There is a super-aircraft carrier available at a certain point. It'll look funny in the design workshop (not sure why, but it appears as 'just' a silksteel gunboat), and looks hilarious in the field. It's a great ship.

Tree Farms are way back there now...hard to get to. The AI handles this fine.

I went through a lot of tests with terraforming...from making everything nearly free, to making forests 0-2-2, or 3-1-1, to changing the base square production, etc.

To make a long story short, I've returned to the normal 'forests'. Farms are better, Soil Enrichers are now 'Xenophagi' and use the letter 't' on land and in the sea (pretty sure it works now Blake). Monliths, Bonus squares are a little different.

Costs changed slightly for probe teams and terraformers, but more significantly, only the first 8 minerals are 'exempt' from retool penalties, players start with only 10 energy, not 100 as it was.

Ah, a few other things, but I'm too tired to remember right now. I'm really excited to see how the veterans handle the game now, and I think it'll still be just as fun for the rest of us!

If you have any questions, let me know. Remember to dupe and rename your graphics if you want them. And keep up the feedback! I'm really going to push to finish this in the next 10 days, at least the public beta. I hate seeing projects like this just fall to the neglected piles of 'good ideas that never happenned'. I'm determined that Aldebaran will be stable and playable, and a challenge for all. Also, I'll go into more detail about AI refinements on the Apolyton thread.

-Smack

P.S. If you want to just use the new Alpha with the old factions as AI's, that's fine, just reload them or change the alphatext to force it to do so for you (it's at the end). -Smack


Notes:

Well Blake, it appears we had the same idea for the AI superfaction names. Great minds, or something...

Er, I would post some notes on the tests I ran, but basically for now, know that I DID try to set forests at different levels, and I did run a test with 'freeforming' where everything took one turn to build. That was humorous. But, I ended up back where I started. If forests are 0-2-2 the AI never uses the square, even though it builds them! And variations. Changing the Base square production from 2-1-1 to 1-1-1 had major effects but they were too harsh...it's a good trick though. The AI can build Colony Pods with only 1 population, and the player can't. With only 1 nut from the base square, the worker completes the requirement for 1 citizen, or if they have a farm, grows one food. ouch! And many other things. I hope you have fun with the new super-factions and that my install directions (repeated above) make some kind of sense...when I return to coherence, I'll return here.

-Smack

[Avenoct]

Basil might have solved the 'retroengineer' bug in another thread...I'll test this tomorrow:

(1) Choppers. I personally like the solution of reducing their movement. But if you want to have standardized choppers that can't be retro-engineered, I think you can do it by assigning the standardized chopper a cost. I haven't tested this, but I notice that all the standard units with a fixed cost don't show up in your unit workshop and so can't be retro-engineered, while the ones with variable costs do.

But the Mesa is a Blake! I suppose it shouldn't be edible though

I think we can work some of those Kiwi/English names into the Huge map...

Those are odd Professor names...great for the new Syndicate or Universaility..let's see what our creative-types have to say.

You might have convince me about the pop-booming. But it's so fun! You're right though, it just helps the player wrap up a win..push an advantage....Hrm, what 'Production' SE should we make up in it's stead (instead of Citizens)?

G'night!

Smack

[Cybergod]

Smack, how big IS this new bate update? I am asking this since I believe that you have crashed my email account !!! I can't access it (mail.yahoo.com) and it says that there is a problem with my ac**** and that it should eb sorted shortly, if not contact system admin.!

Oh well, on the brighter note, finished graphics for the Universali, Planetlovers, Syndicate, Peaceniks (I like this name), I didn't get to edit the Nauticon yet and I am half-way through editing the Outlaws. The The G.A. is finished except that I am waiting to receive the beta group feedback as to whether we keep the Shodan face.

No Smack, I did not receive the plot and would really appreciate it if I could get it REALLY soon (send it on cybergod@localgenius.com).

Names:
Hey! Dr. Antonija Mitrovic has a very similar name to mine!

What about "New Gaia Foundation" for Planetlovers? Gaia's Children/Offspring(s)? And maybe for Nauticon - Neoaquatica?

The graphic files do not fit the maximum size that can be sent to this thread so I'll post new pics to Smack, when (and if) I get my email account back...

[Avenoct]

Cybergod, That Beta 2.1 is 53k zipped, so that's not the problem. I sent a long a 5k patch for a typo I made.

Sorry to hear that you can't access yahoo. my excitemail account has been shutting down a lot recently too. Major pain.

Can't wait to see the new graphics! I'll send the plot outline to you right now. I think you'll see why it might be good to save 'dat ugli face wid da cigar hangin out it's mouf' for another faction to appear halfway through the scenarios. I do like the face.

Happy Crawlering,

Smack

[Edit: Well, havn't field tested the kelp enricher, but the alphatext is right when it says that the keystroke-definitions aren't accessible. The ones listed in alphatext are only visual references, not the actualy keystroke. You'll notice when you go to make a farm or soil-enricher that you press 'f' but the letter 't' shows up. That's why!

Further, the new AI's seem tougher, stronger, better all around, but! I didn't mention that I did fool around with making them all 'erratic' or 'aggressive'; They simply can't handle it. I've kept them all passive for now. I'm thinking of making two versions then, one 'normal' Aldebaran, and then an Aldebaran.veteran edition. This way I can really max out the super-AI's for the vets, I can also leave out the extra factions for the regular edition, and, I think I can go back to a mix of personalities with both editions: what I mean is, have most passive factions (for the great infrastructure), but toss in an erratic and an agressive faction or two to stir things up a bit. Not sure about this last part though.

Just discussing this a bit further...I think that even though the player will be able to make treaties more easily, that at a certain point, ie, when the player becomes a real powerhouse, that the AI will gang up on the player pretty nastily. So, the first 50 or so years will be apple-pie, trading tech and whatnot, but as the borders encroach, as things get tighter, as the player gets stronger, the AI will turn nasty. That's been my experience. Oh, and at least for the first three scenarios, Transcendence isn't an option, so the player will have to get mighty to win. I reccomend turning off the transcend option for beta testing. The games are more fun anyways!

Also, how do you like the new +2 food for farms? I might have to change it back to 1, not sure yet.- Smack]

[Edit2: I've solved the DCU and Disband problem. The player can use any cheat they want and will still have a majorly hard time beating the AI on Transcend now. The AI factions are a powerhouse!
Blake, thanks for the pointer about not using 'growth' boosters for the AI factions..industry and/or econ are the keys. With one more round of player-testing I think the AI, alpha, and factions are mechanically done! I'm going to use names of old Greek towns for the Nauticons btw, unless I hear a better idea. I've pushed the soil-enricher back a bit, and tuned down the farms again..you'll see. Also, Scenario One is a Wrap...'Welcome to Aldebaran' is basically a normal game on the huge map of Aldebaran, with a few secret tricks. The huge map I sent the beta group has changed a wee bit. I'm now working on Scenarios 2 and 3, which require the creation of the second Galactic Faction and the Superrace. Very shortly I'll need a name for these guys.
Also, I'm going to put a 'Novice' version in cryogenic storage, for those just wanting to play at the easier levels, stoned people, or goldfish.
I'm biting my tongue trying not to say 'Betatest!' - G'night! ]

[Avenoct]

Recently Completed

Scenarios 1-4 are done (yes, that's all the scenarios for now). There's a hugemap version and standard map version for each one but #4.

New factions for the Galactic Colonists and the Xeti (superrace) done.

A few final tweaks to the AI, factions, terraforming, done.

Huge map of Aldebaran Done, Standard map also done.

Huge: developed, then PB'd, then fungused map of Chiron done for scenario 4.


To Do List:
Get Beta Feedback
Finish Techlongs
Complete Graphics
Add in the 'Interludes' for the scenarios and main game (waiting for storyclips)
Add nifty scifi quotes for the blurbs, etc. (being worked on)
Get Beta Feedback

I tend to ramble on, so I'm keepin' it short for now. I just have to tell you how much fun it was to PB Chiron and then re-tune it for Scenario 4. It was great fun.

-Smack

P.S. Check out the latest chapters of the story 'Aldebaran' by Kassiopeia, it's coming along!

[Avenoct]

News from Aldebaran

Kassiopeia and I (well, mostly Kass) have been working to finish up the blurbs and tech-longs, for those of us who read those things! We've got some really great ones that will add a bit of culture to the new techs.

I'm still tweaking the AI and player factions (and getting my butt kicked in SP games!) and don't know when the graphics will be finished, but I'm hopeful that we can release the beta in about a week.

-Smack

[Cybergod]

Smack, within around 20 mins I will finishe the last of the faction graphics as I was searching desperately around the net for a good head portrait for the Nauticon (or whatever you decide to call them). When I'm done, I'll email it to you since Apolyton doesn't support posting files larger than 200kb

[Cybergod]

Oh and by the way, I suggest adding a TALENT rating to Citizen and Utopian SE options (see thread associated with talents ).

[Cybergod]

Sorry for sending 3 posts in a row but it needs to be said:

THE GRAPHICS ARE DONE AND POSTED TO SMACK!!!

Thank you for your attention

[Avenoct]

The Daily News from Aldebaran

I think I scared off my beta testers with the last release!

(Note to Self: maybe you should make a new thread with a download and show how simple it is to work with the new superfactions)

Just recieved the new graphics, thanks to Cybergod!

Agreed on the TALENT idea Cybergod. the name 'Citizens' is remaining, but the growth factor is being reduced and +1 Talent being tacked on.

I'm going to need playtesters for the scenarios.

And away we go!

-Smack