Common Sense clause in rules gives mods too much power

Gareth Edmunson · July 22, 2001, 09:42

This clause gives the mods (like that ***** MtG) a carte blanche to do whatever they want and punish whoever they feel for whatever they feel suits their purposes.

I think this rule should be taken out in and replaced with more specific rules so you can only be disciplined for certain things and not this "just don't piss of the mods" bullcrap. It makes the mods too powerful. Imagine if the police in your town were able to regulate based on "common sense" with no specific laws. You'd be living in Cuba.

I also think that there should be something like a "Posters Bill of Rights", so instead of just telling us what we can't do, we know what we're guaranteed as posters at this site. That way we have some power too.

I'm serious, this isn't a joke. Don't flame me if you disagree, just say why.

Eli · July 22, 2001, 11:10

I agree. For example this case, I'm not sure if there was any use of common sence here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=22458

Exile · July 22, 2001, 11:23

"Gareth," whose DL are you?

Let's see, you're supposed to be a "rapper," and you've somehow ended up on a civ2 off-topic forum.

Yeah, right.

Hey! this gives me an idea.

My first poll!

Here it comes--it might take a few minutes.

Exile

Ming · July 22, 2001, 11:37

Gareth Edmunson... I can understand why YOU would want to get rid of the common sense rule

This is not a democracy... by becoming a member, you agree to follow the rules or face action. This is a private site, and the owners can make any rules they want... So deal with it.

And Eli... you didn't show much common sense either. Be happy you only got 10% and not restricted

Ari Rahikkala · July 22, 2001, 11:51

Yeah, to give a PCR to someone who has clearly stated that he doesn't care about post counts anymore

.

(Still has no idea how close we were to being :banned: )

Eli · July 22, 2001, 11:52

[JOKE mode]
I'm going to spam the OT because you didnt give me my posts back.
[/JOKE mode]

I'm just joking Ming, i'm not really gonna do this.

THAT WAS A JOKE!

----

Am I going to get anoter PCR for "threatining to spam the off topic"?

Chris 62 · July 22, 2001, 11:57

This is getting pretty close to ridiculous.

I don't always agree with the Mods, but I have NEVER seen them ban someone for personal reasons (IE Clash of personality).

Moderating an off topic on a web site is an often thankless and difficult job, and the Apolyton Mods do it better then anyone I have yet seen on the net.

Of course, they sometimes make decisions I don't agree with, but isn't that the way in all things?

I'm not just flapping my gums here. I also Moderate an off-topic, at another site. Lots of times I wanted to ban someone I didn't like, but you must be fair with people, even the ones you dislike, or you lose all your posters, as their respect level drops. You have NO idea how difficult it is to keep your anger in check and make objective decisions, and you know for a fact that to matter how reasonable your decision is, it will be qustioned and debated, because you can't please everyone.

They do what they agreed to do, keep the boards clean for most of the posters, and sometimes one or two desenters must be squashed. That is the way it simply must be, like it or not.

Since your arrival Gareth, you have wished to be a problem child, and they have obliged you.
I guess you now see that "Gansta" doesn't play well at apolyton, and, in fact, in most places either, for that matter. Repeatedly challenging men like MTG and Ming will just get you banned, and will get you nowhere fast.

Eli, didn't you post a topic in the ON TOPIC area, threatening to turn it into a spam fest if Mark didn't respond? He is tolerent of some things, but threatening to ruin the boards will draw his ire everytime.

PC is meaningless, forget about those little numbers, all they seem to cause you is aggrevation.

Eli · July 22, 2001, 12:11

That was a JOKE... All I wanted is to remind him that the Earth2025 forum should be closed...

And I dont care for the posts(while i'm still emperor

), but this was a completely not justified PCR, and this is what I care about.

Ming · July 22, 2001, 12:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Eli
And I dont care for the posts(while i'm still emperor

), but this was a completely not justified PCR, and this is what I care about.

If you don't care about post counts, why did you whine in multiple places here, and start a thread about it at ACOL

And you spammed an on topic forum... a PCR was to be expected

Again, be happy you weren't restricted...

Eli · July 22, 2001, 12:23

I whined in multiple places because in my opinion this PCR is completely not fair!

And I didnt spam at all!!!!

I made ONE SINGLE POST. Yes, you could understand it in a different way than I intended. Yes, I admit that this was my mistake. I should have made it more clear.
BUT giving any sort on punishment for this? This is insane!

You know what, dont give me those 300 posts, I dont care about them. But at least admit that PCR was not needed at all.

Ming · July 22, 2001, 12:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Eli
You know what, dont give me those 300 posts, I dont care about them. But at least admit that PCR was not needed at all.

But it was needed... other people followed your example and posted to your thread, so it was no longer a joke. Heck, I would have given you 20% and a restriction. You don't mess with the on topic forums... it's that simple!

Eli · July 22, 2001, 12:38

God...

But what those other posters did?
They posted one post each, agreeing that this forum should be closed.
Yes, these weren't a long insightful articles about the importance of the Earth2025 forums for the Civilization community. But such posts are common everywhere. And I dont see that all people who make a one liner getting banned.

Ming · July 22, 2001, 12:41

You might have considered it a joke... But this was no "one liner"... you were telling people to spam an on topic forum...
Again... WE TAKE THAT STUFF SERIOUSLY.

Go into an airport and tell the security guard you have a bomb... even if you say it with a smile on your face, and you are joking, you will get treated to a body search...

Dauphin · July 22, 2001, 13:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming

Go into an airport and tell the security guard you have a bomb... even if you say it with a smile on your face, and you are joking, you will get treated to a body search...

I don't think you can compare a bomb at an airport to a post about spamming.

In general knowing how a mod will react to a post should be enough of a warning to stop you making such a post. However there should just be a complaints procedure if many other posters also feel a moderator's action was unfair or overzealous.

Ming · July 22, 2001, 13:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Crunch
I don't think you can compare a bomb at an airport to a post about spamming.

In general knowing how a mod will react to a post should be enough of a warning to stop you making such a post. However there should just be a complaints procedure if many other posters also feel a moderator's action was unfair or overzealous.

No... spamming is not even close to a bomb threat... but the point is, everybody should know by now how serious we are about spamming in the on topic forums... and that we don't consider threads asking people to spam a on topic forum funny. And that's exactly what he did....

If you want to complain about a moderators actions... you can, and people do so by posting a thread in the community forum.
And I have admitted in the past when I have made a mistake... and made corrective action... But again, this isn't a democracy.
I'm sure there are a lot of decisions that a majority of people don't like... but it doesn't change the rules we are enforcing. The rules are established by the owners... as is their right on a private site. And it is the moderators job to interpret and enforce those rules. It is impossible to spell everything out in black and white, and anticipate every possible situation, so we must use our judgement... and that's what we do

Exile · July 22, 2001, 13:35

Yeah, right.

Exile

Ming · July 22, 2001, 13:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Exile
Yeah, right.

Exile

You are always welcome to your opinion... There is no way that EVERYBODY will agree with any action taken... So we just do our best. And will we piss people off... sure... but that can't stop us from trying to do our thankless job

Exile · July 22, 2001, 13:52

Piss people off?

Like when you call someone a spammer who has never spammed anything in his life?

You mean like that?

Well, thankless IS correct, but this is NOT a job. Nobody is paying you. You just do it for the kicks of inflicting your judgements on others. This is known as a "power trip."

Exile

Ming · July 22, 2001, 14:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Exile
Piss people off?

Like when you call someone a spammer who has never spammed anything in his life?

You mean like that?

Well, thankless IS correct, but this is NOT a job. Nobody is paying you. You just do it for the kicks of inflicting your judgements on others. This is known as a "power trip."

Exile

Again, you are welcome to your opinion... I didn't ask for this job. The owners thought I was the right person for the job and offered it to me with no prompting on my part. If it was a power trip, I would restrict far more people, and nail anybody that disagrees me. Since I don't do that...

I also don't send insulting PM's to people full of swear words.
I once traded insulting ICQ's with somebody that had been insulting me... I learned that it doesn't accomplish anything, so I don't do that anymore...

Exile · July 22, 2001, 14:25

The comparison is not apt. Apples and oranges. You and I are not in the same power position. If you're expecting me to behave just like you, guess again. So you've learned that exchanging messages full of profane insults is unproductive, huh. Let's have a rousing huzaah for ming's virtue.

I've learned that when someone strikes at me, even from a distance, letting it slide isn't a good idea. It is effectively postive reinforcement conditioning for the striker to try it again.

I try very hard to give as good as I get.

Insult me an screw me around and I WILL hit back any way that I can. Why on earth shouldn't I?

Exile

Ming · July 22, 2001, 14:34

Uhhh... who started it...
You sent the first PM complaining how anal we are?
I found that just as insulting as you claim you found my response...

I guess I'm not allowed to respond either

Who started all the name calling and swearing... uhhhh... wasn't it you....

Feel free to post ALL the PM's unedited... and let people make their own minds up...

Ari Rahikkala · July 22, 2001, 14:39

Hey, Eli, chill and relax. Have an Infinitely Improbable slurpee at the Coffee Shop. Don't care about a few posts... you've probably made 300 posts that would have given you a PCR in similar circumstances anyway

.

(Why does my upper lip feel like a diamond?)

Exile · July 22, 2001, 14:48

"Who started it?"

Who deleted which thread?

Who didn't bother to explain why?

Hey! Maybe you are anal-retentive. Feeling a little self-conscious about it? If you aren't, why would it bother you? After all, you're awfully fond of pointing out how nothing bothers you, right?

You found my responses insulting? REALLY.

They were meant to be.

Look at what I just said in the last post. If someone insults me, why shouldn't I return the favor? Hey! If it's ok for you to do it, then it's ok for me to do it too.

If you had reponded differently the first time, we wouldn't be having this discussion now. YOU chose to be dismissive and insulting. I replied in kind. What is ok for you is ok for me. Otherwise, you'd be a hypocrite. You're not a hypocrite, right?

Who started name-calling? Funny, I just don't recall referring to you as a spammer. Now did you call me a spammer? or not? Hmmmmmmmm? Can you answer that question for me?

As for profanity; I will use it whenever I want to make an impact on those that I address. And it is NOT inappropriate in all cases.

And as for your last remark; this is between you and me. It is not a popularity contest and I am not going willingly invite all the A.S.S-kissers, bootlickers, and apple-polishers into this. I don't NEED vindication by the crowd.

Why do you?

Exile

Ming · July 22, 2001, 14:56

I can see why you would want to keep the conversation private

I have nothing to hide... do you?

It is my job to delete threads that I feel violate the rules. In my opinion, yours did. I don't OWE you any kind of response. If you had posted a thread asking why it was deleted... I would have responded, like I do EVERY time somebody posts such a thread.
I also respond to ALL PM's and ICQ's....

Exile · July 22, 2001, 15:22

For someone who, supposedly, is the recipient of higher education, it's a mystery why you both dodged my question AND used pseudoargumentation.

I'll ask the question again. Maybe you just failed to notice it the last time around.

Who called who a spammer? Now, was that me calling you that? Or did you call me that? Can you just answer that one question and quit dodging?

My basic logics textbook defines your tactic as "appeal to popular belief." What others think is irrelevant to the argument. Prior to the discovery of the New World, most of the population in Europe thought the world was flat. Despite the fact that the majority accepted this belief, the world wasn't flat. If that example is too vulgar, I can cite a dozen others. Gallileo, Copernicus, Brahae, Newton. No one believed them at first either. Did that matter? No. I don't care to air the dirty laundry so that others can get their vicarious kicks and, more importantly, (especially for you) so that the A.S.S. kissers can side with you on this.

Are you a man? Can we keep this between us? WHY are you seeking the "opinions" of others?

I'll tell you why.

Your position is weak; you know that if you could display the exchanges between us, then all the little "yes-men" would side with you, whether it was justifiable or not. You're also dodging the question of just who insulted whom first. You can't answer that question, because then you would have to say that, yes, you DID call me a spammer and that, yes this DOES constitute name-calling.

Unless you wanted to lie about it.

Are you going to lie about it?

Exile

Ming · July 22, 2001, 15:39

Uhhh... since you are refering to something that was said in a PM, I have no problem quoting what I said that you are refering too...

Quote:

First, it had no business being in the community forum except to add to yours and the other spammers post counts...

Second, you don't put members names in a poll in a negative way.

Now, this was in response to your initial PM to me, that I also felt was insulting. Again, if your first PM had not been sarcastic, I would have had a real discussion about the subject... however, you were the one that started it... so please get off your high horse on this one.

Again... feel free to publish the entire discussion. I am not embarrased about anything I said, or feel anything I did was wrong. So I would have no problem with the entire conversation being put on the record (feel free to delete all the personal information you included about yourself)

Exile · July 22, 2001, 15:52

Finally!

Why didn't you just do that three posts ago?

"you and the other spammers."

That's CRAP, ming, and you know it. I am about as far from being a "spammer" as you are from being right.

So, obviously, you DID start the name-calling.

I rest my case.

But of course, you won't admit that you're wrong or anything. And, of course, no apologies will be forthcoming. Don't worry, I didn't expect it of you. After all, you and the pope, right?

Infallible.

Despite your claims that you "occasionally" make a mistake, you're obviously too personally-involved for that kind of admission here. Whatever you do, don't offer up a "sorry" or anything like that, even though you just admitted to name-calling.

I don't expect anything better from you.

I consider this matter finished, but I'll bet any amount of money that you just have to have the last word, right?

Ok, now ming, prove me right.

Exile

Ming · July 22, 2001, 15:55

Post the entire conversation... starting with your initial Pm...
Then people will see what is crap

Now I have nothing else to say on this subject also...

DarkCloud · July 22, 2001, 16:19

Please compare these threads:

1.) Thread 22458
(4 people get a 10% PCR for saying that the forum section should be closed... Eli made a joke about another "Area 25" incident. I believe jokes should be allowed if one makes a valuable point. The others agreed with him.)

2.) Thread 22813

Spam. Venom wasn't banned or even warned for this.

-
We do need a bill of rights.

MarkG · July 22, 2001, 16:31

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkCloud
2.) Thread 22813

Spam. Venom wasn't banned or even warned for this.

-
We do need a bill of rights.

that's the first time i see this thread(and i dont think we ever said that we see every post that is made). i didnt get any complaints about it either until this post....

just so that you... feel that you are posting in a place where justice exists, venom got a 10% pcr(the incredible amount of 8 posts)....