AI head start challenge game

[DaveV]

Here is a game that I think will present a challenge to seasoned Deity level players. You play against 6 AIs, each of whom start with 8 cities and Monarchy government. Only the UN and Apollo wonders can be built. This scenario can be loaded with 2.42, but you really need FW or MGE to play it; I had to use events.txt to keep the AIs' minds on their business (killing the human player ).

I've played this game to AD 80 so far, and the AIs are killing me on the powergraph. I still think I can win, though (this is a big change from a normal game, where I'd know I would win ).

Note: this game is not for those who think the MGE AIs are too aggressive.

Edit: the file can no longer be downloaded directly, but can be downloaded from
this page. Play as the Apolytoners.
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited October 12, 2000).]

[Scouse Gits]

DaveV - if you only think you can win - I'm quite certain I'm dead - but I shall see how long I can survive - How large is the map? Is AC an option?
Wish me luck

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"

[Smash]

I need a little break from Red Front so...

Space or conquest?Does it matter?

[Smash]

This ain't exactly a break!!..very tough to get goin.I had 3 of my first 4 cities bribed away by 1500bc leaving just my capitol.It is secure but I can't venture out to expand.Not looking too good.

[Scouse Gits]

FW - deity
1500BC: in Monarchy
Liverkorum size 5, City Walls, Temple, 3 Warriors, 1 Horse, 1 Dip
4 support cities size 1 or 2 with Warrior
2 Horse, 1 Dip out wandering
One city was bribed and bribed back for a net profit and a free tech

Decidedly not good, but it seems I have been a little more fortunate than you Smash



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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"

[DaveV]

Map size is 50x80, flat. You're free to win any way you want, although I'll be stunned if anyone can manage an OCC win on this setup.

[SCG]

quote: Originally posted by DaveV on 09-22-2000 07:49 AM Map size is 50x80, flat. You're free to win any way you want, although I'll be stunned if anyone can manage an OCC win on this setup.

Not that I have time to try atm, but it would seem to me that with 2.42 OCC would be a viable way to win since there isn't an events.txt in that version and one of the main concepts of OCC is getting the AI to do a lot of the work for you. After all, Paul and vik have both pulled of some rather impressive OCC wins (paul on the despotism challenge and vik in the comparison game where the only wonder available was the Apollo Program) Give a good OCCer the UN and loss of the capital isn't usually a major concern. Add in spies (same tech as UN) and threats can be removed by destroying a city. Also a fact to consider, several people won the OCC fundamentalism challenge.

just some idle thoughts...

[Carolus Rex]

Wow, a zipped save! Took one sec to download.

I will go for AC.

I think...

Carolus

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by DaveV on 09-21-2000 07:56 AM Note: this game is not for those who think the MGE AIs are too aggressive.

Does anyone with MGE think the AI is not too aggressive?

And I'll try to download this tonight when I get home from work. For some reason, I can't find an unzip.exe anywhere on my PC. Then again, this one sounds like every card in the deck is stacked against you from the git go.

BTW. Smash, did you notice Carolus Rex has resurfaced?

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[Paul]

After reading Dave's comments I had to try this as OCC

Unfortunately I got killed on two attempts. First time I went straight for Monarchy. The Zulus killed my warriors and took my city. Second time I went for Bronze before Monarchy and surrounded my city with phalanxes on defensive terrain. This time it was the AI bribe-without-diplo cheat that killed me. The Aztecs bribed two of my phalanxes and killed my NON-settler.

I did notice that the Greeks and Vikings didn't attack once. They just walked around my city without attacking. I would have been killed earlier in my first game if they actually did something. The Spanish and Zulus actually did attack unfortunately.

[Sten Sture]

Good work DaveV. DLing now...

kcbob - I think the MGE AI is too aggressive; for its own good! It tries really really hard to capture well defended terrain via the Iranian human wave method.


btw - anyone that hasn't tried some of the excellent scenarios out there is really missing out. I have recently played Harlan's Lord of the Rings & Mongols, Nemo's Red Front, Dauman's Great Game, and lined up several others after looking at some Scenario League reviews. I am amazed at some of the excellent work out there.

[Scouse Gits]

Paul... are you sure about AZTECS? In my game the yellow civ is SPANISH!
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SG (2)

[Smash]

Well I also have gone OCC.NOT by choice thats for sure.

I'm treadding water.Barely.I also had units bribed off the mountains by archers.They are doubled up now(pike and catapult combos) but I cant do anything.Time is flying by and my civ still struggles for survival.Science is crawling along.I couldn't send a caravan out even if I had the time to build some!

The only good thing is I've been able to do some tech stealing.Not much though as it takes alot of "luck" to get a dip close enough.

Stick a fork in cuz I'm done.

A quick "peek" at the events.txt tells me why.I got a new plan that involves getting the @#$% away from certain co-ordinates

[Paul]

SG, you're right. I meant the Spanish. I had the same problem with the Aztecs in an other game I played, so I confused them.

[Simpson II]

Hmm, I seem to have been a bit luckier than most. I had some idea of what was in events.txt because I saw DaveV's thread in creation, but I decided to stay put and give the AI a 'fair' chance. The situation certainly isn't good - as of 1180AD I have 12 cities, most with poor development prospects from being built on hills and with an emphasis on near-term productivity. Not to mention that the terrain STINKS!!!! This is giving me more trouble than the AI.
Anyway, I lost one city ages ago and bribed it back two turns later for ~39 gold, which was a damn good deal with the tech. It was unoccupied at the time, my defenders have held out most bravely. One mad 2000 year old horseman has gained an amazing amount of experience in killing elephants. On my own soil I have only lost two pikemen to elephants when the AI suddenly decided to fixate on a different city, and one vet. knight which was slaughtered when attacking a stack of two caravans. No, I don't understand that either.
Currently my knights are polishing off the Spanish cities while I prepare my next wave of troops, Dragoons (yes, my tech is absolutely laughable.) I have stolen only two techs by proper espionage, the AI is too far away for an easy diplomat war when there is so little ocean. It's a cleverly evil map, DaveV, I have to admit.
Annoyingly the Spaniards seem not to have grown their cities at all, so most of them are vanishing when I attack; I have only one capture so far. I'm eyeing the American cities greedily, some of them are size 12. If I could get some money together then I might take the capital and bribe a real production-base.

So, while it's the rest of the world which needs to worry about it's survival and not me, I'm worried about the AI possibly launching a spaceship before I can roll over everyone. My tech-rate is right down now to try to stop them from researching, though that tends to mean more bribing of my troops I would guess. I wish my explorers could do that.

[Gatekeeper]

Everyone:

Wow. Sounds like everyone is getting their butts kicked in by this scenario. And deity/MPG players at that, too!

Huh. Well, I'll play the role of vulture and just circle lazily overhead, watching my fellow Apolytoners dying. I'll be sure to make use of the knowledge gleaned from their suffering (and won't repeat the same mistakes). If a Mac version comes out .

CYBERAmazon

[Smash]

Well,I made a bit of a comeback.I got my 3 bribed cities back.My "empire" is 4 cities.3 are size 8 and the cap is size 12.In Republic now.Using the "people's sceintists"-diplomats.Using boats,I've hit every city around.Also managed to bribe a caravel on the "outside" and sent dips to mainland Rome to steal.Maybe 15 techs stolen.

I finally delivered some caravans and have routes in all cities now.All cities have walls and barracks as well as temples,libraries,markets and courthouses.2 banks and a university and colliseum in the capitol.I'm 1st in Literacy.Big deal.I'm still aways behind but not as far as I should be.

I must have killed 100+ ai units so far.Sometimes they attack,sometimes they don't.I had a vet knight in American territory parked on a mtn.They would keep putting elephants beside it turn after turn.At home countless units have perished against my walls.My crops grow well with all the blood of fallen ai troops.

Getting my cities bribed was a huge problem but seems to have stopped now due to courthouses and a larger treasury.I lost alot of turns regaining cities.1 city alone was bribed 3 times.Had to rebuild improvements every time.I was patrolling aggressively but 1 always sneaks thru.

Unfortunately,its 1500s allready and I have yet to reach industrialized age.Happily,I am last only in population.

outlook-bleak

This scenario is completely compatible with Macintosh.MGE or original.The events won't work on original but it could be played.No probs on MGE.The events work well.Too well in fact
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited September 23, 2000).]

[Ribannah]

I'm playing this one as a OCC , expecting to be the last to set foot on Alpha Centauri somewhere in the 25th century ....

So far we have survived until 1 AD, mainly because the Greeks - who have a large army - do not attack unprovoked. My phalanxes and legions (we stole Iron Working from the Romans ) are holding out against the combined aggression of the Spanish, Romans and Zulus; the Vikings have just a single Warriors fortified some distance away and the Americans have yet to show up. Hopefully they will be nice and let my caravans in, since they tend to have the largest cities of this lot.

We are in Monarchy - can't afford Republic with so many units sitting on mountains and still to discover Construction . We also stole Medicine from the Romans, very useful without Shake's ....
City is size 7. We have no money for bribes.

The Romans get a new tech every 3-4 turns, whereas we need 10-12!

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[geofelt]

I think I will give up. It's 1710, and I am holding my own. I have 9 cities, mostly size 6, and a couple of 3's. All are defended by walls and a vet pikeman and a vet catapult. The pikemen handle the two movement attackers, and the catapult takes out the cannon and catapults. This won't last forever, the AI has industrialization, and as soon as it has bombers or armor, I'm toast. It might be possible to win, but so far, it has not been much fun.

[Scouse Gits]

Dave - What a map! Some would say challenging - I would say sadistic!

I like the core 8 cities, all built on hills! You gave the game away! These "perfectionist" cities are a bit too close together. Obviously the work of a sleazer.

I think I've turned the corner. Now in fundy. The date is 1816 and fighting back!

Congrats on a really good scenario!

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SG (2) ps The Americans had to be the first to go. On hitting F8, they were just too tempting!

[DaveV]

SG2 - congratulations on learning how to succeed without the Gardens !

All - this scenario is supposed to be difficult; I was trying for a single-player game that had more of a multi-player feeling. That is, a game where you have to build more than warriors for defense, where you can't browbeat the AIs into coughing up massive amounts of tribute, and where you might have to try some new strategies. In the end, though, it's still the same AI that's been the butt of so many jokes on these forums.

In my game on this scenario, I've built lots of catapults and a few explorers, units I never build. I've also built lots of temples, which I normally avoid like the plague. The game has been an orgy of micromanagement, and I've only progressed as far as AD 580 so far. I knew the map and general game situation, so my results are tainted anyway...

[Scouse Gits]

The Gardens was the one wonder I missed early on, and yes - I too built loads of temples. Things nearly came to a halt, in Monarchy, when I had three units in a "one" city and still had a red face!

Explorers were useful for diplo spotting - but I couldn't stop one city from being bribed.

It's the longest game I've ever played - 10 days! I'm at 1846 but things look good. When I eventually finish I will try and post a rough log.

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SG (2)

[Carolus Rex]

I've started playing and it's a very strange game, at least it's not what I expected.

Current status (deity level, MP version):

It's 450 BC, I have 13 cities. I have traded techs with the AI and have 30 techs in total, including invention. Researching engineering, approx 30-35 turns/discovery (I'm in monarchy).

I've demanded a heck of a lot of tribute (highest was 650 gold, I think), how is that possible with MP version and such a weak civ??? Treasury is 1760 gold. I was offered 450 gold + BW if I declared war on the vikings (which I did).

Have barracks in three or four cities, cranking out vet crusaders. Contact with all civs, only at war with vikings and americans.

I still don't get the amount of tribute...

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited October 04, 2000).]

[Smash]

I couldn't carry out negotiations in my game.Something isn't working right.

[Scouse Gits]

There is no diplomatic dialogue at all in my game. Every time an emissary is sent there is the same message beginning "Do you take us for fools....."
The UN makes no difference to this situation.

(Playing version 5.3 on a PC)

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SG (2)

[Carolus Rex]

I think I know what it is now...

Ok, here it comes...

Do I have to save the note pad documents in the MP directory as well?

Well, I didn't. Only saved the .scn file...

Sigh.........

Carolus [who runs for cover to avoid rotten tomatoes and eggs]

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited October 05, 2000).]

[Paul]

Yes, the events.txt file prevents you from contacting the AI civs and does some other things to make this game harder.

[Scouse Gits]

Version 5.3/Deity/"Apolytoners" - Conquest in 1856

With a detailed log the game would have lasted forever! What follows represents an outline of progress.

4000BC immediately founded capital - four specials - and with no huts to chase - no need for delay. A fairly standard ICS approach was adopted, it didn't seem like a perfectionist strategy would pay dividends. Research was set for Monarchy. Early expansion was on the west of the capital, along the river. Monarchy was reached before 2500 (I think in 2650). Then research was aimed at Horseback Riding, The Wheel, Writing and Mysticism. Three warriors were set out to explore. Two went west, the other trekked south-eastwards. All ended up fortified on mountains. The team in the west struck lucky. Not only did they discover the fertile river system beyond the desert, but also one of them found an important choke point (loc 30, 42). This blocked the progress of the Greeks for centuries. Greek elephants kept sniffing around this guy. They stared, took photographs, but it took ages for them to attack him. This bought valuable time to drive a road westward and found cities in the valley of the nearby river.

The eastern front was different. Not too long after Monarchy Viking raiders were spotted. One or two scouts at first, then an army of chariots and catapults! A garrison, with barracks was established on the silk at (loc 60, 52). Here the vet chariots killed and recovered in alternate turns. The occasional Roman elephant also complicated matters. If the AI could co-ordinate attacks, history would have been different! Research had to be decreased to finance a growing army. Money was tight as the upkeep of temples drained the treasury each turn. Even with the temples unhappiness was almost out of control. To add to the troubles - yellow Spanish shields appeared on the north-eastern horizon, followed by streams of Zulus. Two garrisons were formed on suitably defensive terrain at (loc 58, 44) and (62, 46). For more than the next millennium these towns were going to be busy! Life expectancy was short in both of them. Both had explorers tracking down the deadly diplomats. Fortunately, only one city ever succumbed to bribery.

By 800AD things were near breaking point. The defences against the Vikings, Romans, Spanish and Zulus were just holding off aggression. The guy on the mountain by the Greek border was still there, but now knights were taking his picture! It was only a matter of time before the Apolyton Empire collapsed. A total of 23 cities, none bigger than size 4, had struggled to research a total of 22 techs. Worse still; Chivalry was not amongst them. With the belief that this state of affairs would only last another couple of centuries before technologically superior forces swamped the defences, a cunning plan was needed!

In the list of the top five cities, the Americans had three represented. Heading the list was New York, boasting a population of 13. They had sanitation; but what other goodies were on offer? Light blue activity had been limited to the occasional horseman or caravan originating from the unexplored far west. There was speculation about them being a democracy, perhaps finding it difficult to maintain forces in the field of battle. As yet no AI cities had been conquered, so if the game was to turn in favour of the Apolytoners, large perfectionist cities were a mouth-watering prospect. Diplomats were already charting the area believed to be American. Their mission was to establish an embassy and to steal advances. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the small surplus of troops and caravans were ordered to head west.

Shortly after making these decisions, events overtook the grand plan. The Greeks killed the warrior on the mountain and the terrain on the western borders turned orange. Luckily extra troops were already heading in that direction bound for the US. A secure city with walls and barracks (loc 31, 37) deflected some of the Greek advance, but they had some roving marauders heading for poorly defended interior towns. Securing the realm from this invasion took centuries. Eventually, a fort on the old warrior's mountain contained the incursions. In the meantime diplomatic activity had stolen the key Chivalry advance, and had revealed the Americans to be a dozen techs ahead.

The first real offensive success for the Apolytoners came in 1510 with the capture of New Orleans. As the purple flag was raised on the city hall a choice of technologies was offered. It took several milliseconds to pick Steam Engine! With ironclads the game would be hard to lose, even if victory was not yet certain. Several of these ships were rush-built. Their mission was to disrupt the Spanish, Zulu, Viking and Greek supply lines. This they did with great success, alleviating the pressure on the border garrisons.

During the Sixteenth Century the main continent of America had been revealed, groaning under its vast cities. Caravans to these places and continued theft accelerated technological advances. The 1620 Revolution led to Communism and a relief from unhappiness. There was great pleasure in scrolling down F4 making entertainers redundant! The next objective was Espionage for veteran spies, but the ultimate goal was Fundamentalism, if conquest was to be achieved before 2000.

In 1756 the High Priest was in control. All those temples of the early years began swelling the treasury with tithes to form a considerable war chest. Apart from New Orleans no other city had been captured. There seemed little point in moving out from comfortable garrisons to capture meagre towns stuffed with units, until the time was right. Instead the Empire was railroaded in readiness for the logistics of conquest. The focus of expansion zoomed in on heartland America. Under defended huge democratic cities were ripe for the taking. As each one fell the position on the Powergraph improved a point! Washington was preserved for decades because of its repeating coal demand.

In military terms, the Greeks and the Vikings were the largest threats. These nations could be bribed but the price had to be made reasonable. Here the spies worked hard. First they would investigate, then sabotage the temple or colosseum. Once in revolt, the courthouse would have to go, then the place could be bought. It was heavy on spies but the price was cheaper than full rate bribe tariffs. It was only during this exercise in bargain buying that I realised that Vet Spies bought at cheaper rates!

By the early Nineteenth Century the conquest bandwagon was unstoppable. Each new city gave an extra base for production and wealth. In 1856 the final Spanish cities fell to a surprise paratroop attack. They were blowing away Phalanxes!

Thank you DaveV for an engrossing scenario! Now can I have my life back … until the next one!?

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SG (2)

[Scouse Gits]

I dropped in on this a few times during its recorded history - what a great game SG(2) - I think I would have folded around 800 - things did not look hopeful then. Well done!


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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"

[DaveV]

SG2 - congratulations on a hard-fought win! Just the kind of game I was trying to cook up.

I'd like to exchange some save files with you when I finish (which should be in, oh, a month or two). It's an interesting contrast of ICS styles. I've made it to AD 920, and things are going my way, but there's a long road to travel still.