The wonders: yet again.

[Matthew]

This has been a much discussed topic, yet one well worth discussing again. As more people have more experience we gain more insights in how to make use of these to their fullest.

I like most would have once said that MC's is by far the most valuable wonder, and it's still a tough one to beat. But I no longer think that it is always most important. For an ICS strategy it may be essential. But in a multiplayer game in which one may have difficulty in congering up enough space for 15 cities, let alone 30, MC just might not always be the ultimate.
Of course relative values of wonders differ with single or double production, or single vs double movement as well. But if it seems you will never have that many cities, you may do very well to skip it for something else.


JSB

Often, although certainly not always owned by the same player or alliance owning MC. (would be nice to play with rules text that separates these two a bit more.)
Given a choice? Well, if you have JSB you can still get Cathedrals. With MC, the effect of JSB is irreplaceable. And if you want to wage war as a Democracy, JSB is far far better. It's effects are calculated after the part about being pissed cause troops are in the field.

Lighthouse

A highly under rated wonder, especially in single production. By building it I have at times managed to beat the owner of MC to JSB in spite of being far behind in the tech race initially. Between Caravans and Dips I got the techs first and had the resources to build the wonder quickly. There is also a lot to be said for being able to strike at your opponent while the Sea acts as an impenetrable wall protecting you from him. This can at times even prove decisive early on, winning the game for you before MC can become a factor. Not to mention the fact that vet triremes almost always win against non vet triremes, and non vet caravals when attacking. The extra movement point you get with navigation is an added bonus, but best use of this wonder is probably made pre-navigation.

If you get steam engine before lighthouse expires there is an additional benefit. Vet iron clads can be a holy terror against coastal cities defended by musketeers, although with my play style, especially if I have Magellans, I'll often not bother with this.

One more thing. And this is a biggie. The light house can often give you sole access to plentiful land on a crowded world. Not to mention first shot at the huts.

This wonder is not always particularly valuable, however. It sucks to build it early on and find later that the lay of the land just won't ever allow you to make good use of it. Small, split up seas that are easily crossed before navigation, no particularly lucrative trade routes cause everyone is on the same continent with hard to access cities, etc.

Two things need to coincide for this wonder to be of use to you.

1. Your play style must take advantage of it.
2. Geography has to be just right.

Also, some military advantages are lost in 2x1x games, especially if you are playing with people who simply will never build on anything but a hill or mountain.

If your play style does not focus heavily on taking utmost advantage of this one, and you aren't willing to commit a lot of resources to it, you're wasting your shields.


Hanging Gardens.

Valuable for anyone.

For ICS'ers, this is a no brainer, but probably not worth loosing MC for by diverting your research path, especially in 2x production, in which to have the tech is usually to have the wonder.

If you have about 14 to 18 cities, and just don't have anywhere to build any more, this wonder is even more valuable, cause you're just not going to celebrate WLTC day in republic very long without it, even if you have JSB, MC, and temples and colloseums in all your cities.

Pyramids.

This can be a very valuable wonder, especially when combined with a happy wonder. You can grow your cities very quickly even without wlt_d celebrations, and you don't even have to be in Republic or Democracy to do it. But to make full use of this one, you need to irrigate and irrigate well. Also you need to build those temples fast, and get mysticism.

This is great for low tech growth. With Alphabet, Ceremonial Burial,Code of laws, Monarchy, Masonry, Bronze working, currency, and Construction, and Mysticism, that's just 5 techs beyond what is needed to get out of despotism, you can do all of the following:

Grow your cities quickly

Defend your cities very well

keep your cities reasonably content, at size 7 or 8, even with no luxuries

build aqueducts so you can grow past size 8

build a market place to increase revenues, and keep a size 12 city content with two entertainers.

Note that in a single production game this can be a great defensive wonder. You can build on hills, forests, and even mountains and soon make up for lost growth, whereas the other guys, in single production at least, can often simply not afford to do this in the early game.
Great Wall.

Probably most valuable in 1x1x. Gives you dip proof walls, and if you make sure your phalanxes are vets, should be enough to make even an attack by vet Crusaders a very costly endeavor. It will probably cost someone more to take most cities than it cost you to build it, and you can probably take it back. This can be a great focus point of your strategy if you are a war monger, or just like to build lots and lots of cities in the heart of enemy territory.

Great Library.

A two edged sord. It can get you lots of free techs, and will discourage enemies from trading techs, but it can also slow down your rush for techs you want for wonders.

One option with this one, turn the tech rate either down or off, relying on the GL to just keep in the ball park. Maximise your taxes and use this to help build units or infrustructure.

Marco Polo's embassy.

The more civs, the better. (Same for G.L., but in a duel, I would strongly suggest preference for this one) This one is replaceable with diplomats, and rarely costs more than 180 shields to replace by diplomats, unless of course the other guys kill your dips and the boats taking them en route. And the other civs may not want to trade techs with you.

This is definitely a wonder with uses, but must be made the most of if you are going to expend resources on it early. It can be quite invaluable in keeping track of what wonders other civs are going for early and in knowing just what exactly you need to do to beat them to it, or if you would be wise to focus on a different area.

Collossus.

Another under rated wonder. We all know how valuable this one is in a super science city, but if we get this, but not the other SSC wonders, have we wasted our resources on it completely? If you have the fortune of building it in a city that always supplies Silk no matter how often you trade silk from it, not at all. Aside from knowing that the owner of the observatory will never make full use of it without this, you can still focus on growing this city and getting rich off of trade caravans from it. Or let your ally get rich off of caravans to this city. One large trade city with this wonder can keep all of your allies very rich in trade even if they are in Monarchy with puny cities focussing exclusively on shield production just from the regular trade routes alone. I've had size 3 cities churning out 100 or more science per turn just off of trade routes with a Super Science city. The only wonder that mattered in this part of the arrangement was the collossus.

Copernicus, Newtons.

Contrary to what the manual says, it's Copernicus that doubles science, and newton's that adds 50 percent. Together, they triple it. Copernicus isn't a bad investment alone, costing less than double what a university costs. But it's obviously far more effective in conjunction with Copernicus and Newtons.

To make the most of a super science city in an Mp game, you want to be able to take quick advantage of a technological advantage. So either Leo's or Tsun Tzus Goes very well with this combination if you're in to military advantages. Of course this applies no matter how you get your tech advantage. Also, to make the most of the SSC combination, you definitely want to keep Science as high as possible. Think Caravans. And lots of them. Yuo would very much like to have a tax rate of zero.

All said, the SSC combination costs 900 shields. That's as much as 18 caravans, and if caravans are working well, that's quite a sacrifice. It costs more than MC and JSB combined. The whole thing is of course far more valuable on some terrain than others. It can be a great investment, but certainly not always the best. Also keep in mind that a few dips can turn these expensive wonders into something a lot less worth while.

Magellans:

great if you like boats. Won't give you the superiority that the light house can give you early, but it's a superiority that will never end. With this wonder you can probably maintain naval superiority with 30 % less ships than the other guy, and more if you are a good naval tactitian. I love this to help with caravans, but this isn't always necessary. In this respect it's just replacing a few boats in the boat chain.

Well, I've said enough for one post. I hope others post on some of their favorite ways to take advantage of certain wonders.

One thing I have noticed about wonders. No wonder is absolutely necessary to win, unless you base your whole strategy on getting it. Then if you miss it, you are often screwed.
------------------
The camel is not a part of civ.

THE CAMEL IS CIV !!!!

SAVE THE CAMEL !!!!!!
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Matthew (edited November 05, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by Matthew (edited November 05, 2000).]

[drake]

Matthew- thanks for the good reading and intelligent insight. You have some very interesting points of view and I read your entire post. Although I have some ideas to discuss about wonders, I have not the time to go into the same detail that you have at this point. To add something quickly about lighthouse and magellans- these can either be your best friend or a waste of your time. On a very large gigamap that has large continents and few islands, having these two wonders could quite possibly be the only way to explore the entire world. Some people build these wonders just cuz they're available and never take advantage of what they offer. Thats definetly a bad reason. Every unit/improvement/wonder in civ has a function and if they arent used properly, you're wasting a lot of time on nothing.

[drake]

I forgot to add that I'm with you on the "save the camel". Trading is one of the most fun and lucrative aspects of civ and is truly under-appreciated.

[DaveV]

Sun Tzu's War Academy

The third leg of the Warmonger Triad (with Great Wall and Leonardo's Workshop). Can be built early in the game, lasts a lot longer than the Great Wall. Fortified vet units in an unwalled city are only slightly weaker than non-vet units behind city walls (225% vs. 300%). You don't have to pay upkeep on barracks (and don't have to worry about them being destroyed or captured), and you can pick up vet status for your ships by cruising the shoreline looking for weak units.

I never realized the value of vet status in my SP days: if you're attacking phalanxes with cavalry, it doesn't matter much whether they're vets or not. But when forces are nearly equal, veteran status can be the difference between victory and defeat.

In every MP game, I want to have either GW or STWA. If someone can manage to build both, watch out!

[East Street Trader]

Lots of good stuff on the Wonders - but it was the comments you made in passing about siting cities on defensive sites which caught my eye.

The only times that defensive considerations enter my thinking when choosing a site for a city is when I expect to have to contain a neighbour for a long time while I expand elsewhere or when founding a city so as to help me break through a tough defensive line.

I can see that routinely to site the first city or two in uplands may prevent those early defeats and also that to make every city a tougher nut would allow your empire to go down to a longer and braver defeat when invaded by overwhelming forces.

But that seems poor recompense for always having a slower start? Is it regarded as good tactics in MP?

By the way, I saw a discussion in these threads about the defensive bonus for river and for forest - cumulative or not. The community view was cumulative and I've been trying that out in recent games.

Cumulative it is. Rivered forests make great choke points. And as city sites, forested river city squares produce good resources as well as providing excellent defence.

In fact, if you get the chance to found your capital on a forested river square (especially with spice nearby - ideally rivered spice), you can exploit the feature whereby building a settler doesn't disband your size one capital as long as you have not yet founded a second city. With timing and the right terrain you can make two settlers while you are still a size one city and meanwhile the trade arrows give you fast early research progress and you have the comforting knowledge that with just one defender you are invulnerable to early barb attack. In fact an early barb appearance probably means 150 in the bank - then you'll definately get three quick cities down and still be with a bullet!

If you fancy that tactic the terrain needed seems quite common if you go for a wet 5 million year old map and you start near the equator.

I disagree completely on the theory that building on a defensive site is not necessary unless you "plan" on holding someone off.
For one thing, you need to always assume you will be found.
So if possible, I never build on any simple plains, or grassland. Rivers are number one, forests at a minimum on coast lines, and if I can build on a mountain that has a couple of specials in the city squares, I'm happy as a pig in slop.

THe thread was started on Wonders though, and
Adam Smith's is, IMO, one of the better.
Get it, crank the luxuries, and wait for the happy citizens to come out to party.

[East Street Trader]

Well, some (maybe lots depending on your style) of cities surely finish up well inside your empire and a long way from likely fighting. Good defensive terrain will only matter during the shortish period they are still on the outer perimeter - and a lot of the time you will have units on hand capable of defending them even then.

Take your point on coastal cities though. I'm being very slow taking up MP and so rely on rapid research and an early coastal fortress to defend against naval bombardment. I can see that probably won't work against a human opponent so defensive terrain will stay important there.