OCC attempt: partial log

[Juggler_Bob]

Ok, I have asked for help before, and have received many good suggestions, but these are often hampered by a lack of sufficient information about my play style....

What follows is a log from my most recent OCC attempt, up to the year 220 A.D. As you will see, I am at the point where I am beginning to fall behind, IMO.

What I do know: Maybe I should have researched Mapmaking at some point, but I thought I was going to build Marco's and be able to trade for it (see log).

I was offered Trade twice before I finally chose it as a research path, but I felt I was in a race for Copernicus, and we all know the SSC path must be followed in an OCC game...
All the same, the inability to build caravans and trade with the AI has been detrimental. Besides that, is there anything else I'm doing wrong, given my situation?

Game log

4000 BC Large world, small land, archipelago, temperate, wet, 5 billion yrs, raging hordes, deity, 7 civs, I'm the Sioux. Start with bronze working

3950 - Hut - Archers.

3900 - Likely city site chosen. Whale, rivers, ocean access, good food/production mix. Settler begins mining a rivered grassland that will likely yield a special, if this site is indeed a 4 special location.

3850 - Hut - more archers. Good! Two (none) archers, this will help later to pacify the masses without depleting production.
- Little Bighorn founded. Begin Colossus production. Fish spotted to the north, whales (previously seen) to the east. both in line with the 4 special pattern. Maybe my hunch about the rivered grassland will pay off! Hmm. There's a shielded grassland to the southwest that would be the fourth special. Maybe I'll send the settler there after he finishes his current task...

3800 - Begin researching Alphabet.

3600 - Hut - Ceremonial Burial.

3400 - Gamble pays off! The rivered grassland has been transformed into rivered silk! High hopes for the shielded grassland to the southwest!

3350 - Hut - Alphabet, lost beakers... oh, well.

3300 - Begin mining shielded grassland to southwest.
- Begin researching Code of Laws.

3150 Code of Laws.

3100 - Begin researching Monarchy.

2850 - Success again!!! The shielded grassland to the southwest has been transformed into pheasant! The city site is indeed a four-special!
- The two (none) archers are at home now to impose martial law. I hope the Colossus is completed before too long!

2800 - The settler begins to irrigate the river squares. Still no contacts with other civ's...

2750 - Barbarians appear to the north (archers). It will be three turns before they are in striking range of Little Bighorn. I hope that I can ransom the leader and buy the rest of the Colossus!

2550 - The barbs waited for reinforcements... Now one archer and two horsemen. The settler must suspend his work for now...

2400 - The horseman with the barb leader threw himself against my fortified archers and was destroyed, leaving the leader open to a strike, but I may lose an archer in the attempt...Still, I gotta go for it.
- Got him, but still not quite enough $$$ to rushbuild Colossus. Maybe in two or three turns. The other barbs still lurk, and there is still one more leader. Come on...just a little bit closer!

2350 - The second horseman threw himself at Little Bighorn's fortified archer rather than the one out in the open (unfortified), and suffered death for his misjudgement. The barb archer and leader continue to sniff around my borders.
- Monarchy! Went ahead into revolution, although I don't know if it is the proper Odeo year..
- Begin researching writing.

2250 - Now in monarchy.
- The barbs act as if the will not attack. Maybe I should provoke them.

2150 - Colossus rush built.

2100 - Begin warrior production. More crowd control, and cheap, too. Barb archer and leader still running, though they will soon run out of land and be forced to turn and fight!

2050 - Barb archer tries to take my archer (who is on a hill). He fails. Barb leader flees into the darkness... I hope he is still around. My archer gains vet status, but is severely wounded.

2000 - Begin temple production.
- As I feared, the barb king escaped, oh, well.

1750 - Writing discovered. Begin researching Masonry (path to Astronomy...plus city walls don't hurt!)

1700 - Temple completed. Begin library.

1200 - Masonry discovered. Begin Currency.

1150 - Library finished. Begin city walls.

1100 - Heavy barb uprising to the east. Chariots! I hope I can rushbuild the walls in time. Why, oh why didn't I choose to buid a diplomat?

1000 - Damned Babylonians just switched from Oracle to Marco's! I don't even have currency yet, let alone trade. Grr!!

975 - Rushbuild walls. Barb chariot in striking distance! I hope the defenders hold.

950 - The walls scared them off. They now proceed to the northwest, away from Little Bighorn!
- Begin diplo construction.

925 - Discover Currency. Begin researching Mathematics.

850 - Diplo completed. Begin market.
- Diplo begins pushing back the darkness (exploration).

825 - Damned Bab's complete Marco's. Hope to hear from them soon!

700 - Math discovered. Begin researching Literacy.

600 - Market complete. Begin Great Wall - will switch to Copernicus when available.

500 - Civil disorder (expected) but I can afford the Elvis for now. Will try to bump the lux rate up to 10% and see...

475 - Literacy discovered. Begin Mysticism.
- Lux bump works. Barb horses appear to the east, diplo is close.

425 - Barb horse bribed. Barb leader captured.

250 - Mysticism discovered. Taking a gamble and going for philosophy - will hopefully pick up Astronomy with the bonus...

50 - Barb chariots to the east. Diplo in position. Takes one, who attacks another and gains vet status. I don't know if I will be able to get the leader (protected by a third chariot.)

1AD - Philosophy pays off! Get Astronomy as bonus, and follow up with beginning research on Republic (twinges of guilt about not taking Trade at this point...)

200 - Copernicus is built. Begin diplo due to lack of choices.

220 - Republic discovered. Trade research begun. Revolution started, and it IS an Oedo year. Instant Republic. All units back to Little Bighorn to fortify and lux up to 20% to prevent unrest.

-End log for now-



So you see my problem... Here I am at 220 and I am just getting Republic. The city area is good terrain with four specials, and I've worked with what I have to the best of my ability. Is it the trade factor?

I've attached a JPG of my city radius, if you're interested.

-Bob

[Ribannah]

Here come some hints

Originally posted by Juggler_Bob
What I do know: Maybe I should have researched Mapmaking at some point

You should have explored more. It depends on the map whether map making is a priority.

I was offered Trade twice before I finally chose it as a research path, but I felt I was in a race for Copernicus, and we all know the SSC path must be followed in an OCC game...

Actually trade comes first. Apart from estabishing trade routes, once you have trade, building wonders is so much cheaper!

3850 - Hut - more archers. Good! Two (none) archers, this will help later to pacify the masses without depleting production.
- Little Bighorn founded. Begin Colossus production.

Let one af the archers continue the exploration effort, while you build a Temple (rush if you can!) before starting the Colossus.

2150 - Colossus rush built.
2100 - Begin warrior production. More crowd control ...

Rush-building wonders is very expensive, you should have saved your money to rush-buy, in this order: a Temple, a Marketplace, a Library. Also, it should not be necessary to build Warriors this late in the game. Once your city hits size 3, maximize production (and trade), not growth.

2000 - Begin temple production.
1700 - Temple completed. Begin library.
1150 - Library finished. Begin city walls.
850 - Diplo completed. Begin market.
600 - Market complete

This is where you lose the race. City improvements should be rush-built. Maximize tax income if necessary (and if it is, build a marketplace and possibly even a bank and a stock exchange before you build a library!) until you can. And never, ever build City Walls until you have launched your spaceship (and even then it's low priority)!

1750 - Writing discovered. Begin researching Masonry (path to Astronomy...

First priority is Republic, then Trade. Pick up Mysticism on the way when you can't research anything on those paths. You will be able to finish Copernicus much sooner with this detour.

250 - Mysticism discovered. Taking a gamble and going for philosophy - will hopefully pick up Astronomy with the bonus...

Not a gamble. Astronomy, being high up in the alphabet, is always available.
Save philosophy until you want university, since any new tech increases the costs for the next one.

Try the same map again, I hope this can help you on your way!

[Scouse Gits]

The lady just about said it all - to clarify one point though - rib says "Actually trade comes first. Apart from estabishing trade routes, once you have trade, building wonders is so much cheaper!" this refers to the fact that you can incrementally rush build caravans for roughly 100gp and than use them to build a wonder at value 200gp! a massive saving ...

Yes, try the same map again - you shall prevail!

Hi Rib - long time no see.

[Paul]

4000 BC Large world, small land, archipelago, temperate, wet, 5 billion yrs, raging hordes, deity, 7 civs, I'm the Sioux.

Not the best world for OCC. This kind of world means that you will probably start alone on an island and need map making (trireme) or trade (MPE) to get contact with other civs.

You'll be better off playing on a small world, because then you will usually have only one continent and the other civs will be closer. That means that you can trade for lots of early advances that you had to research yourself in your game.

And listen to Ribannah. She's the OCC record-holder with a 1236 landing in the game that Smash recently posted. That means that she knows what she's talking about.

[Grigor]

Ribannah's tips are very enlightening and help explain her own success in building infrastructure. To expand on one of her points, City Walls are not necessary to repel barbarians in OCC because of a game feature which makes it impossible for barbarians to destroy your last city if it is defended (even by a 0-attack unit). Waves of Barbarian archers self-immolating against a caravan-held city is one of the most amusing features of some OCC logs.

I also prefer to play on large random maps, with, I fear, similar results to yours. A large map certainly makes the OCC game much more challenging! Although changing to a smaller map size is one option, I would love to see some attention paid to the strategic refinements necessary on a large map. Although I am virtually without qualifications in this regard, I will start:

The chief causes for increased difficulty on a large map are the greater base cost for beakers and the more distant AI. There is much more of a race against time, help is slower, and the likelihood of an annoyingly strong AI by launch time is vastly increased. The only counterbalancing factor inherent in a large map that I recall being discussed is the possibility of tipping huts through massive exploration, thus rocketing through the tech tree to Invention. But there is probably still going to be a long dry spell sometime later when the tech costs get high.

If you do your hut-tipping before founding your city you don't have to worry about barbarians from huts, and so one initial strategy is to wander nomadically until you get Monarchy or Republic. The risk is that if you happen to be on an island, you could be in deep trouble if you get, say, 8 techs not including a government change and run out of huts on the island. Alternatively, you might found the city right away but delaying the hut-tipping until later. The timing of the big exploration period probably needs to be just after Trade and Republic (and of course, before Invention). This would maximize the possibility of getting techs from huts in an otherwise dry periood in your Civilization's history.

Ribannah's beautifully conceived infrastructure buildup via an early Republic seems like the strongest plan to counteract the slow AI contact. I would guess that in most cases MPE becomes a necessity. Lighthouse also becomes a useful wonder,especially on an archipelago, both to transport caravans and to get None units from overseas huts. The radically different order of wonder building in samson's and solo's early landing experiments (especially Copernicus before Colossus!??) is interesting to look at, and might be faster even in OCC than the classic order from the Paulicy. But what I really want to know is how Ribannah gets enough gold to build a caravan each turn from 2000BC to 1500BC (see her log in the Classic OCC thread)!

[Juggler_Bob]

Well. It seems that I have received advice from some of the best! I will indeed restart and try again with the suggestions.

One point I will make in my defense towards the growth issue in my current log:

Unless I put several workers out to sea (or turn them into specialists after 5), the food production of my city radius is between 4-6 every turn. Growth seemed inevitable. There are some hills that I hadn't mined yet, perhaps I will start there next game....

Again, thank you!

-Bob

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Grigor
But what I really want to know is how Ribannah gets enough gold to build a caravan each turn from 2000BC to 1500BC (see her log in the Classic OCC thread)!

Not so hard: with a Marketplace, Bank, Stock Exchange, 3 trade routes and taxes about maximized until Copernicus was finished - just making sure that no beakers from deliveries went to waste - I could easily afford to pay 125 gold a turn.

To do well in OCC (heck, this is true in every strategy game!) you need a good economy first. Then build the science improvements for the next era of discoveries, and slow down again once you have reached a key point. This is how real civilizations survive through the ages, too.

In civ there is basically only one major key point (not counting the endphase after Fusion Power): upon the discovery of Trade, which is the single most important discovery in the game. Some minor key points you may want to race to, depending on the circumstances, are Construction, Navigation, Sanitation and Industrialization.

[KrazyHorse]

I guess I'm doing all right. OCC isn't that hard anymore with a good start (I haven't failed since my first success at Deity). I've still got some catching up to do, though. I just completed the 2nd Fortnight OCC (It's my 3rd successful attempt at Deity) with the 2 whales/two wine start. Landed in 1869. Broke the 1900 barrier for the first time!

[happy 2 B here]

Excellent advice from everyone so far. Can't overemphasize the importance of rush buying caravans to build wonders. That will really advance your game. Your first research goal should be monarchy, and immediatly after that writing and literature and republic. You should try for republic no later then 2000 bc if possible and then to increase luxuries to achieve WLT*D. You can usually get your population up to 5 or 6 without a trade route and 7 with a few trade routes before adding a colluseum or Shake's Theater. This will dramatically increase the science and or economic output of your city early on when it does the most good (ie when the science research is the cheapest). Also, it is to your great advantage to use a small map because it has lower beaker costs for research and you are closer to other AIs who you can ally with and beg for money from. Money is the lifeblood of a OCC game. Without alliances and gifts, the rushbuilding is harder to do and therefore your infrastructure is slowed and subequently your discoveries as well. Finally, try multiple restarts as the Babylonians until you get at least 3 free techs with 2 of them being monarchy prerequisites. (The Babylonians seem to give the best chance of having monarchy precursors as free techs) There is much more to discuss in this fascinating game, but that is enough to try to tackle at one time.

[KrazyHorse]

Finished Fortnight OCC #3. 1870 (sort of freakish that the past two have been within a year of each other, no?), but I don't feel bad that I didn't improve too much, since this one seemed to be harder than the previous one (less trade specials), even with the scenario tech tree. HTF did Ribannah land in the 1400s? Holy sh*t that's amazing.

Are there any other OCC newbies? I think I'll start a thread for comparison/discussion purposes. On to fortnight OCC #4.

[Smash]

You can hold off on Republic until Construction if you want.After Collosus and maybe market you can get your Monarchy city celebrating.I've played this way many times.
Then get Republic(usually thru Philosophy after caravan#1) and take it to 12 in 1 shot.If it works out right,you can go to 21 in 1 shot.Really,really right and you can hit Democracy on an oedo year and go 21+ in 1 shot.

There are a few different ways to approach the opening.It kinda depends on the site,starting techs,huts,contact etc.