Is Democracy better than Fundamentalism?

DarkCloud · July 28, 2001, 15:14

Frankly I found that in Civ II it was best to be either a Monarchy or a Fundamentalism... If I switched to Republic or Democracy then my people would riot... What are the advantages to playing as a Democracy versus the other styles?

The way I have been getting my wins in civ is beelining all military advances and getting to fundamentalism first, then declaring war on everyone and stealing all their techs and winning the game that way.

The Andy-Man · July 28, 2001, 15:24

how dull.

i used to be like you

if you switch to republic as soon as you get it and then set lux rate at a mimimum of 40% and dont wage war, you will find that your science rate is superior, and you have lots of we love you days. this means more growth. more growth means each town produces more taxes. this means that markets and banks uses have been more then trebled. more money, more scince. do the same with demorcracy and make sure to build mikes chapel, bachs, oracle, hanging garden, womens sufferage and any other happy wonders. so then in a democracy you can wage an offensive war. i puseh my enemies back all across europe like this, and had my space ship not landed before they even had nukes, i would have conquered the world. this was on prince mode btw, i am gonna attepmt this on king soon.

having said that, i still like the money you can make in a fudy, but you can make as much with banks in a dmeocracy.

Wiglaf · July 28, 2001, 19:02

Fundamentalism is my favorite form of government, as its only weakness is no science, which can be overcome by allies or espionage. Andy-man, on diety level, people riot so much, fundy is pretty tempting... seeing as a democracy would be horribly unreliable and a republic would be too sensitive.

Other than diety, which cheats you a lot on happy citizens, his advice is sound.

Marquis de Sodaq · July 29, 2001, 11:08

I think democracy is better. You pile up the techs, trade earns the most gold of any government aside from fundie. Also because fundie is unfairly strong in CivII, methinks. 10 free units?! That's way too much. I've halved the number in my rules.txt... That said, I actually prefer communism in a conquest game.

The Andy-Man · July 29, 2001, 11:25

i dont think i have ever run inder communism EVER.

and units should cost gold, not production.... is there a way to change this in the rules.txt?

Scouse Gits · July 29, 2001, 13:45

Marquis - despite what the rules say you only get 8 free units in fundy (deity) - and if you have built some fanatics you may not even get the 8 since the game engine seems to count the units for each city in order of build (and includes fanatics) to get your eight freebies and then charges for all non-fanatic units after that ...

The Andy-Man · July 29, 2001, 15:39

but who builds fanatics when you have riflemen?

unless of course, you just took the city and need cheep reinenforcments.

Scouse Gits · July 29, 2001, 16:08

Yes Andy - despite the fact that I love Fundy as my favourite government - I build few Fanatics - However, it is a perfectly viable strategy to use fanatics to shield starve an opposing democracy by the simple expedient of putting a Fanatic on each and every square of all their cities ...

The Andy-Man · July 29, 2001, 16:16

i never thought of that

the only time i ever used fanatics was when (on chieftain) i was so technologically ahead, that they actually had a good offensive rating. i conquered the world

cpemma · July 29, 2001, 16:23

Another advantage of Democracy is your cities & armies can't be bribed.

I used to switch to Fundy for a good war, but it's more fun trying to bend the rules in Dem. You can kill off all units in the field & blast several cities down to 1 or no units before taking another city & have the Senate stop you. Keeps the other civ building units instead of Wonders. etc and makes them unhappy so cheap to bribe.

The Andy-Man · July 29, 2001, 18:01

thats the only oher prob wuth demo. is the senate. i have had a massive army ready to blitz through to my enemies capital, and the damn senate calls a cease fire after i take the first city

Smash · July 29, 2001, 21:43

Fanatics have almost the same #s as rifles.Just as good for me.A vet fanatic is good defender.If you go Fundy,then you might as well build them.Only 20 sheilds a piece.

dexter4dxm · July 30, 2001, 01:19

well for a democracy, you can declare war 50% of the time if you have the united nations wonder, right? i've always wondered if this really helps or not, seeing how you pretty much have to deal with the senate every time a city trades sides.

fittstim · July 30, 2001, 04:58

Quote:

Originally posted by dexter4dxm
well for a democracy, you can declare war 50% of the time if you have the united nations wonder, right? i've always wondered if this really helps or not, seeing how you pretty much have to deal with the senate every time a city trades sides.

It helps!!! If you successfully "continue" to wage war against a civ after the first city capture (i.e. the senate does NOT overrule you), then from that point on, the senate will back you the whole way. Never agree to listen to any of their diplomats and you can conquer a 50-city civ under a Democracy without any hassle.

And even if the senate does force you into peace, all you have to do is stack two diplomats or spies next to one of their cities and they will immediately attack them and declare war on you. Presto!

The ONLY way to wage war is with a Democratic gov't. Otherwise, your just wasting your resources. That is, your civ is researching at a higher rate, you're collecting tons of gold and your cities are packed with people. You'll be producing stealth fighters which, with the help of a single mech. inf. unit can capture five or more cities in one turn (depending on road/RR system).

I say STICK WITH DEMOCRACY!!!

OneFootInTheGrave · July 30, 2001, 05:50

If you are the biggest use dempocracy... yoou have no corruption, you can defend, you have the best science output... only if you decide to crush your enemies use Fundamentalism, but before that be demoratic since it pays off.

fittstim · July 30, 2001, 12:21

No No No!!!

Never switch to anything else after you discover DEM. It's so easy to crush every other civ AND be a DEM civ. Anyone who switches to FUND to "crush other civs" is fooling themselves. A DEM civ will be getting more and more techs and building better and better units.

So what if you have 10 free fanatics. I can wipe ALL of them out with a single stealth fighter or defend a city with a single mech. inf. or tank. Don't kid yourself. Goad the other civs into declaring war against you, and then DESTROY them. It's so easy it makes me cry...

EOL · July 30, 2001, 14:22

If I'm conquering I tend to get to robotics for howitzers and then switch to fundamentalism. Occasionally I may go as far as stealth before changing, and then completely turn the science off (sell universities and libraries, and use 0% sci).

The Andy-Man · July 30, 2001, 15:28

yeah, once i am onto futre techs, i see no point in concentratying on science. even if a futur tech is bonus points.

fittstim · July 31, 2001, 06:28

Yes, that's true. I usually drop science down to 0% during the latter stages of the game and STILL usually get 1 tech per turn. The problem with techs and points is that once you get 256 techs, the number turns over and you start over at 0. You also LOSE all of those bonus points!!!

There is also the problem of making too much money (unless you are using the "no-limits" version of the game). And in any case, what good is having so much gold? You don't want to go through 200-300 cities every turn buying units and improvements. I usually drop the taxes down to, at most, 10% when my economy becomes self supporting.

What's left? A Democratic gov't with 90-100% luxuries. The perfect combination to wage war among the masses and conquer the planet!!!

drake · July 31, 2001, 09:15

I think both have their times. Democracy is great for science and money (if you want to build a bunch of improvements), but after necessary sciences are obtained, it's a much better idea to switch to fundy. This way you can really start taking advantage of the military techs you've gained and defend/attack in a proper fashion. Democracy also limits your growth at higher levels, because you're forced to either: a)build almost all happy wonders b)build tons of happy improvements c)create entertainers d)raise luxuries to a point where taxes suffer etc etc. And on top of that, troop production is slowed down every time you add another by a shield. In a big war where 50, 60, 70 or more troops are needed, that's 50, 60, 70 or more shields that are basically being flushed down the drain every round. That's not kosher from my perspective. Switching to fundy will free up all these free shields, allow you to boot the entertainers and maximize city production. If you've done well in democracy and have built a good foundation, there's no reason your science rate can't be reasonable in fundy. Having a science rate under 5 isn't too un-common in fundy. And besides, unless you're trying to build a ***** spaceship, what good are almost all of the advanced techs?

Switching to fundy after you've obtained the military techs necessary to compete with the rest of the world is the way to go....IMO of course.

DaveV · July 31, 2001, 09:48

In MP, the best Fundy science program is based on stealing techs. For the price of a diplo/spy, or by employing your huge army to capture a city, you can pick up a tech from one of those scientific powerhouses. Let the other guys build all the scientific wonders and improvements. Then let them try to stop you from pilfering their science

. It all comes down to playing style: if you cringe at the thought of moving a huge army of units around the map, then stick with democracy. If you like to play a conquering style, fundy is ideal. Communism is a nice compromise government: few happiness problems, and able to field a strong military while still generating impressive science.

Rasputin · August 1, 2001, 00:56

In my tender experience, a good alliance with one or more in Demo and yourself in Fundy is a great way to enjoy Civ 2 MP... Especially if you are not the leading civ... Reality is if you have fallen behind other MP players at this level, forget trying to catch up in Democracy, change to Fundy and goto war.... Works for me !!!

Howitzer Al · August 2, 2001, 11:25

Communism. All the way.
I try to build the SoL, switch immediately to Communism, and stay there (usually) the rest of the game. Great science rate (especially if you raise luxuries enough for your SSC to celebrate), great tax rate, 3 units keep 6 citizens content, no (or little--don't remember for sure) corruption or waste, and VET SPIES. There's just no beating it for me.
Admittedly, occasionally I do a few turns in Democracy with luxuries high to pump up my population, or when I discover all the techs, I might go to Fundy to better bulldoze the AI.

Laszlo · August 8, 2001, 22:35

In most of my past games(not higher than king) I have jumped to monarchy, republic, and democracy as fast as I could. With the technological lead I got stealth fighters and paratroopers to start pushing back the border. I also used spies heavily to subvert enemy cities.

In the later stages when my cities matured I became flush with cash; so much so that I not only bribed any cities in my path, but could buy out most build-orders in my cities every turn.

This was a little too micro-management for me because I like to expand into the hundreds, so I created a macro in MacroMagic that automatically rush-finished the projects of a whole screenfull of cities in the city manager.

By constantly expanding both in city number and population (with high luxury) you are in a good position to win either by spaceship or default (world takeover). Beyond king though, this method flounders because you can't get all the right wonders and techs before the others.