tips for neurotic micromanagers

[Lars-E]

If you have barbs or Americans(?) invading your city sphere and you have an unhappiness problem at the same time, do this: take away workers from the city square(s) you anticipate the foreigner/barb to move into. You can tell from previous encounters and simply by looking at the options he has. The point of doing this is simply that you would lose that produce (food/trade/shield) anyways when someone other than your units are occupying your city square(s). If you have the opportunity to get rid of your closing enemy by military might/bribe it would be best to that most of the time...

Please submit more nitpicking micromanaging tips...

Could someone tell me how I can make ALL my cities grow to 127 by using food caravans?

[Deity Dude]

Here's another one - it's pretty obvious but here it is anyway.

After conquering a city sell off any improvements that you already have obtained on a global basis through a wonder (i.e. sell off graneries if you have the pyramids)

[Lars-E]

When cities pass size 8 sell aqueduct and when they reach 13 sell sewers...

[redbaron]

quote: Originally posted by Lars-E on 11-29-2000 03:05 PM When cities pass size 8 sell aqueduct and when they reach 13 sell sewers...

I wouldn't advise that. Without an aqueduct you can't build sewers, nor will your population grow any further. Only sell these improvements off when you have reached the maximum size you want for your city, (or if you desparately need the cash of course).

[Lars-E]

I wouldn't advise that. Without an aqueduct you can't build sewers, nor will your population grow any further. Only sell these improvements off when you have reached the maximum size you want for your city, (or if you desparately need the cash of course).[/quote]

Really? I saw that tip posted here somewhere...If you sell aqueduct (only) after reaching size 13 you stop growing?

[tonic]

The program seems to be asking,
1. "If the city is growing to size 8 or greater does it have an aqueduct?" and additionally
2. "If the city is growing to size 12 or greater, does it have a sewer system?"

So for a city to grow to size 13 say, there are really two checks ie you need both.

Now another tip:
Keep a close eye on the science beaker progress via F6. If the number of beakers per turn exceeds the number required to get the next tech, adjust the tax and science ratio. This will give you the extra gold for rush-building etc.

[Chainsaw]

quote: Originally posted by tonic on 11-29-2000 04:29 PM Now another tip: Keep a close eye on the science beaker progress via F6. If the number of beakers per turn exceeds the number required to get the next tech, adjust the tax and science ratio. This will give you the extra gold for rush-building etc.

How can you know how many beakers you still need to get the next tech if you already have some in the science box? Do you have to guess or is there a way to say how many are exactly in the box / how many are still missing?

[tonic]

quote: Originally posted by Chainsaw on 11-29-2000 05:04 PM How can you know how many beakers you still need to get the next tech if you already have some in the science box? Do you have to guess or is there a way to say how many are exactly in the box / how many are still missing?

1. You measure the length of the beaker "bar" in the F6 screen; it's about 15.5 cm. That's the beaker-length you need for 1 turn.

2. You read out the number of turns per tech-advance from F6 or F5.

3. Say it's 4 turns per advance. So each turn is equivalent to 15.5 divided by 4 or approximately 4 beaker-lengths.

Now if you have say 14 cm beaker-length on F6 (or 2 cm remainder) you know you have a surplus and can increase the tax:science ratio.

I have a spreadsheet of the length per turn vs the turns per advance for reference. And you can also get an on screen ruler utitlity for ease of measurement.

[Deity Dude]

Unless I am mistaken there is no real advantage to changing the beaker count at the end of the turn. I say this because extra beakers at a discovery just give you a head start next time.(i.e. if you need only 25 beakers to obtain your next advance and you get 125 per turn you will start with 100 beakers towards your next advance on your next turn) So changing the ratio there is no different from changing it anywhere else in the long run.

Along a similar line, if you are going to get darwin's voyage make sure you time it so you get it right after you recieive your next advance. Here is case where' if necessary' you might change your science/tax ratio to slow down or speed up your next advance to coincide with receiving darwin's.

tonic,
Aren't you thinking of OCC-play here? Only the exceeding beakers from the city that "makes" the discovery are wasted. The beakers from the following (earlier-founded) cities get carried over to the new tech you choose to research.

But granted, in OCC, the tip you gave is crucial to a succesful game, since you only have that one city to make all the advances.

[Richard Bruns]

Darwin will not waste science beakers. If you are just about to recieve a tech, then all the beakers will carry over to the second tech you choose. It is possible to get three tech advances a turn this way: a city builds Darwin, you finish the tech you are working on and get another. Then a city later in the list gives the beakers needed to finish the third tech.

[Smash]

I could be wrong but my experience seems to be that all beakers are "lost" after a certain point.Might be a tech or a game turn.Probably has to do with the order in which cities are "run thru".Does anyone know of a way to control this?

After exceeding the # of cities for a game level/map size/government type, keep an eye on the happy screen.It will tell you if a population growth will be content or unhappy causing disorder.If you are diligent you should NEVER have a city go into disorder.

[Scouse Gits]

Another couple of small points on beaker counting

• there is a neat little on-screen ruler available from here called appropriately enough the 'Cool Ruler' which is absolutely invaluable, and
• if you take off all scientists and move the tax rate bar to 0% for science the 'Number of turns needed' is the total number of beakers required for this advance. Caution, several external factors can effect this total such as the technology state of the AI

Good civin' :eek

------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[Lars-E]

Tonic, let's say you have a size 14 city and you sell off your aqueduct and sewers...The city's growth stagnates...But what if you keep pouring in food caravans...won't the city grow then despite of lack of aqueduct and sewers??

Summing up science beakers:
Smash, what do you mean by run thru?
The point of Darwin relating to beakers is to get 3 advances the turn you get that wonder, and you don't need to keep counting anymore. Or do you, Smash??
I have seen some postings in here about the number of science beakers needed to get a new tech. The discussion doesn't seem to be conclusive. There seems to be a number of intricate(?) factors at play. Has anyone managed to find out which factors yet? If not I guess the ruler has to do in the meantime and using Scouses method of counting (only before you get Darwin??).

I based this temporarily summary on you people's comments. Please make corrections or add-ons.

[Ming]

Look at your cities every turn. If you only need 5 shields to complete something, and the city is producing more, shift your workers around so you only have 5 and take the extra trade or food.

Same with food... If you only need 5 food to fill the box... see above

If the food box is full, see above

BIGGEST TIP... If you are playing a MP game, do this stuff BETWEEN TURNS!

[East Street Trader]

Nice link, SG, thanks.

Excess beakers are lost from the trade bonus so a peek at F6 before the caravan/freight delivers is worthwhile. If you are going to finish an advance next turn w/o the trade route bonus, keep the customer waiting one turn.

I used to hold back on completing a route when cities were just about to grow, too, but experience (not calculation) suggested that the small bonus gain didn't compensate for the loss of a turn or two's trade arrows plus the risk of mishap.


Nice thread Lars-E.

To answer one or two of your questions, Darwin's is a one off wonder. It only affects matters for the player who builds it and for the turn on which it is built. What you do is keep an eye on F6 and then rush build at the moment when you have just made an advance and your beaker count towards the next advance is very low. If you build it in a turn when your beaker count is already high you are losing a chunk of its value.

Turning to the number of beakers needed to advance generally, there are two main influences, how many advances you have yourself made and how your science stands in comparison to the AI. To get to grips with the first point look at the number of beakers needed for your first advance in a game where you found your capital straight away. The beakers needed will be just ten. Look again after you achieve the first advance. The number needed for the next advance will be more. (You will be relieved to hear that in the early turns rulers aren't required!) How many more depends on whether you have got any advances from huts or from exchanging technologies in the meantime. If you haven't, the number needed will be 20. If you have it may be many more than 20. The more advances you get the more the number grows. Incidentally, the bonus techs given before the game starts don't count for these purposes.

The way the second factor works is that if you get ahead of the AI in research (which, by and large, you will) the game penalises you by increasing the beaker requirements a bit more still.

There is nothing much to be done about point one - but you can do something about point two. You can give away techs to the AI. That reduces your lead and stops the beaker count being ratched up so fast.

It is a bit counter-intuitive to do this but if you play a game or two of OCC you'll soon realise the force of the point.

And you can get quite substantial collateral advantages through diplomacy as a result.

BTW, if you do give OCC a try (it's good fun), leave any pride you take in your micromanagement skills at the door along with your six gun. I, for one, got a shock when discovering exactly how casual I really am. And with just one city every mistake is painfully obvious.

[tonic]

quote: Originally posted by Lars-E on 11-30-2000 08:17 AM Tonic, let's say you have a size 14 city and you sell off your aqueduct and sewers...The city's growth stagnates...But what if you keep pouring in food caravans...won't the city grow then despite of lack of aqueduct and sewers??

The answer is still "No". The program seems to check for the landmark 8+ (Aqueduct) and 12+ (Sewer System) everytime the city gets to grow to the next size whether it's through the normal filling up of the food box or through the WLTxD (We love the Consul/President... Days).

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader BTW, if you do give OCC a try (it's good fun), leave any pride you take in your micromanagement skills at the door along with your six gun. I, for one, got a shock when discovering exactly how casual I really am. And with just one city every mistake is painfully obvious.

Quite so. However if your pride can take the dent, it is a worthwhile detour. I reckon I learnt more in the five months of OCCing than all my previous years of civing!

Lars E,
Cities are "run through" in the order of newest -> oldest, i.e. for tax generating-, upkeep-, improvement building- and science beaker-purposes, the most recently founded city contributes first - and the very first city founded (by you or conquered from the AI) contributes last.

So the excess beakers from the city that fills the box with beakers required for the next advance - are lost. If you have more than a handful of cities it's almost impossible to micromanage the science output for that particular city, but in OCC you should definitely micromanage the science/tax ratio all the time. Actually, that's part of the challenge and quite fun too at times.

[Lars-E]

quote: Originally posted by tonic on 11-30-2000 04:50 PM Quite so. However if your pride can take the dent, it is a worthwhile detour. I reckon I learnt more in the five months of OCCing than all my previous years of civing!

Tonic, When I first read Paul's OCC guide it was like everything else I had read on civ was NOTHING i comparison. Reading Paul's OCC-guide and posts on Apolyton has changed my game. Before I used to go to all kinds of civ2 pages and read all kinds of strategies/tips, but now I only go to Apolyton. To me it is definitely and absolutely the best civ site ever.

EST, I find that micromanaging is a science of it's own in civ2 play..

Legman, is your other nick LegOman? Being from Denmark..

Lars-E,
Yeah this is no doubt the greatest site for Civ tips and discussions. And Paul's the OCC wiz for sure.

He he, sorry no on the Lego. Good observation though.

[tonic]

Yep, Lars_E, the OCC principles will stand you in good stead in a perfectionist type game. After all it is just one SSC.

Another simple tip:
Anticipate your "We Love..." days when you're planning to expand your city size through these WLTxDs. As it takes one turn after the first WLTxD for the population to grow, start the WL one turn before the important landmark eg the establishing of a Republic government or the building of a Sewer System. You gain (or save) one turn that way.

And a related reminder: if you're revolting to change government, don't forget the oedo 4-year rule.

[DaveV]

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 11-30-2000 09:25 AM Look at your cities every turn. If you only need 5 shields to complete something, and the city is producing more, shift your workers around so you only have 5 and take the extra trade or food.

Sound advice. But the truly neurotic micromanager will anticipate the shield excess and eliminate it ahead of time. For example: you're building a settler in a city that produces 6 shields. After 6 turns, you will have 36 shields in the box. Rearrange the workers to produce 4 shields on the 7th turn. Alternatively, on the first turn you could change production to a warrior and rushbuild it. Then change production back to a settler. Five turns later, you have a settler. For the cost of 8 gold, you've shaved one turn off your settler production.

For advanced micromanagers, you can anticipate city growth and calculate the number of shields the city will produce on the turn it grows, as well as the number of shields it will have on subsequent turns after you move the workers back onto reasonable squares . Sometimes, buying a few shields can save you a turn of production and some wasted shields.

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader on 11-30-2000 10:51 AM Darwin's is a one off wonder. It only affects matters for the player who builds it and for the turn on which it is built. What you do is keep an eye on F6 and then rush build at the moment when you have just made an advance and your beaker count towards the next advance is very low. If you build it in a turn when your beaker count is already high you are losing a chunk of its value.

Note also that when you get Philosophy from a hut,
if you play OCC you will get a free tech the NEXT turn (if you're the first civ to discover Philosophy). All beakers you have gathered will be lost. So you might as well put science at zero for a turn.

quote: ...look at the number of beakers needed for your first advance in a game where you found your capital straight away. The beakers needed will be just ten. Look again after you achieve the first advance. The number needed for the next advance will be more. (You will be relieved to hear that in the early turns rulers aren't required!) How many more depends on whether you have got any advances from huts or from exchanging technologies in the meantime. If you haven't, the number needed will be 20.

It also depends on the size of the map.

quote: If you have it may be many more than 20. The more advances you get the more the number grows. ... There is nothing much to be done about point one

Well, there is. You can skip the end-of-a-branch techs you don't need, even to the point of not trading for them and taking care not to get them as a gift.
Playing OCC, I especially try to avoid getting Polytheism, Monotheism and Genetic Engineering, which will typically be researched by the AI tribes.

I even postpone trading for techs I don't need now, but will be needing in the future, such as Warrior Code, Navigation (especially these two since if you get them too early they will badly disturb your tech options) and later Conscription and Atomic Theory.

Of course if you don't play OCC your focus is on different techs, but the principle remains the same.

------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

Unneeded techs in OCC (techs not needed in order to get Superconductor and Fusion Power) include:

• Polytheism
• Monotheism
• Theology
• Genetic Engineering
• Refrigeration (nice to have though )
• Combined Arms
• Mobile Warfare
• Robotics
• Stealth
• Environmentalism
• Recycling
• Amphibious Warfare
• Guerilla Warfare
• Communism
• Espionage
• Labor Union

So you can bypass these techs when trading techs with the AI and when choosing you next research goal (well you have to research some of them every now and then 'cause they're the only choices you're given, but there we are...)

[Blaupanzer]

Doesn't Robotics contribute a spaceship piece?

Nope. Space Flight enables you to build Structurals, Plastics gives you access to Components and Superconductor makes Modules possible. - And Fusion Power is a must in OCC.

But... sometimes, depending on the terrain you've got, Robotics is nice to have because you can have a Manufacturing Plant to help meet the 80 shield requirement. Different story...

[kcbob]

In the spirit of micromanaging, if I need to spit out a settler but the food supply to support him only provides for 1 shield per turn to create him, I'll juggle the workers to bump the shield production and a turn or two before the settler is created, I'll disjuggle the workers back to food supply mode.

------------------
Frodo lives!

[Laertes]

For me, the biggest learn in micromanagement has been the elimination of lost turns due to UNREST!

1. Make sure you set the game to require "Hit Enter" to end each turn.

2. Before you hit enter, hit f4 and spot any cities in red - they are going to be in revolt unless you do something about it. You especially need to do this if you have gone into revolt, or have military units wandering around in and out of your cities.

3. Super-anal tip: Spin through every city at the end of every turn on the city screen menu. Check to see if the foodbox is about to fill (this allows you to go through quickly). If it is, check the "Happy" info to see if you are about to go into revolt, and make adjustments as appropriate.

However, you could just be finishing, or rush building your temple or the extra military unit, in which case your city will not revolt - it checks after the builds are complete.

4. If you have Hanging Gardens, watch out for the discovery of Railroad by you or someone else. It will get announced intra-turn and you will have no chance to adjust your cities.

Watch out for Theology if you have made the mistake of building the Oracle.

5. The extra worker on forest that is causing unhappiness might be happier working on a trade-producing square. So you can keep everyone busy without unhappiness.

6. If you go for expansionist and a quick republic, build some "spare" warriors to escort your city-founding settlers, to avoid instant unhappiness as soon as your 16th (?? Deity, Large) city is built.

Fergus - enemy of the red-faces.

[Mercantile]

i have a question about unhappiness. Can you tell ahead of time if a city is going to revolt. I have had cities grow and they didn't revolt, and then others which did when they grew. Now the ones that do usually don't have the temple in them yet but the mandatory 3 warriors for martial law. Why is it some cities revolt at size three even with three units stationed in the city? How can i predict which ones will revolt? Really confused about this, i am such a bad micromanager as well, its no wonder even with a good start i end up sucking

------------------
Do you shovel snow in your birkenstocks?

[Richard Bruns]

Click on the "Happy" button in the city screen. If a citizen is black, signifying extreme unhappiness, it will take two soldiers to make that citizen content. So this means that all 3 troops are being used to keep 2 citizens happy, and the city will riot when it grows to size 3.

By the way, I did some more tests and found that Darwin's will in fact waste shields. In the first tests I did, all my science that turn was generated after Darwin's was built, creating the impression that it didn't waste the shields. So I messed up that test.