Stopping Howies.

[Like2frolick]

So. You're wanting to stop Howies. Now, I'm rather new to this game, but....well. Here's my idea.

#1) What is Howitzer main strength?
The Howies strengths are this: They have a HUGE attack factor(Unsurprising....Most attack units have massive attack factos, they need to to have a chance of defeating defenders) and the ability to ignore city walls. In addition they have 3 MP.

#2) The weaknesses of the Howitzers: They're land units, and expensive.

Now. The problems as I see it are this: Most people have all there cities connected with railroads,which let's 10 howies rip 10 cities apart in a turn.

Nothing can stop Howitzers....right?

Wrong. Here are some of my ideas...now I might be wrong, and if so, tell me.

1)Prevention.

This one is simple. An Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...wipe out everyone before Howies. Since this is impossible(Hell, if you guys could do that, ya wouldn't be complaining!)

The second one is this: Don't let em do that. First off, if by the time Howies bumble onto the scene you're still sharing the continent, chances are whoever gets it first will win, the rest of the game will be an orgy of mutual bloodshed.

However...if you control a continent(And you should! No sharing! Sharing BAD!) you should do this.

Build a Navy and airforce and keep em off the borders. Unless they can get Transports in to your continent and hook the howies up to the rail line, they're just targets for fighters.

Build a Powerful Navy and Airforce...hard to do on Democracy, I know, but do it anyway. Specifically, you want cruise missiles, Bombers,(MAYBE)Nukes, and a fleet which is powerful enough to hammer your opponent.

I am a firm believer in sea power. I Love Ocean Power! Control the Ocean and you win the war!

Here's how ya do it. Use your missiles and bombers as scouts. Move them out as far as they'll go(without crashing, of course) and keep an eye out for encroaching enemy fleets. The fastest a Transport moves, I think is 7 moves(Bah, I can't remember)But it's lower than a Bomber...simply keep your eyes open, and smash down any transport which comes near your continent. The second prong is your fleet..if you see an encroaching fleet, sally them out and duke it out. Fight like mad to kill those transports, and use your superior air power(If he has enough Aircraft carriers to make it a real fight, you've already lost...) and kill the Howies before they plop off the boat.

Now...If your opponent doesn't believe in sea power, he can't invade until he's built a force able to punch through yours.

In that time...you can build your own army, and invade...the best defense is a good offense!

Now..let's say they get past the perimeter defenses...all is not lost my friends! No..because you built to last! Let's say your opponent drops 15 Howies on you. One would expect them to take as many as 45 cities in a single turn.

Secondary defenses:
Build a hill under your city. (Yes, use engineers to make your city into a hill. +50% defense will help damage the enemy)Not good enough, I know. But here are some others.

First off....You Built your entire continent into railroads, didn't you? You did, right? Look. I admit that roading things over is great from a defensive standpoint..Railroading a large continent, however is a BAD IDEA.

Who does it help more? Yes...you can build one large force and put it someplace and put it ALL in one place...but they can do the same thing to you!

So here's my idea...Railroad it, but pull a Stupid AI trick(aka Roman Maneuver) and every few spaces along the railroads, put a fortress with a powerful vet Mech Inf.

6+3+3+6(And if you put it on a mountain, it's even better)

Howies ignore city walls...but they don't ignore fortresses. So one or two defenders on a mountain which the howies HAVE to take can put a serious crimp in there defenses.

Do this the whole way. Lemme do a crummy lil Map.

Key:
O means city
= means railroad
F means fortress

O===F===F===F===O

The Opposition has to pound his way through multiple hard points to get through to your next city...2 Mech Inf in those will kill things by the job lot.

Now, the problem is...using your rescources efficiently..after all, you don't wanna put all your cities 10 squares apart, right? I have 2 options.

Gather all the cities in an area, and hook it to another collection of cities through a long, defended rail line

OOO OOO
OOO=====FFFFF==OOO
OOO OOO

This way, the enemy can only take a part of your empire away from you, and you can take it back with a Diplomat-or-howie rush of your own!

And finally...you don't wanna Lose ANY cities..Heck, nobody does.

Final defenses: At each corner, build a fortress. Place 2-3 powerful defenders in each fortress. the enemy then has to either daisy-chain or take out the units in the fortresses in order not to violate ZOC.

Of course, these aren't permanent solutions! These are stopgaps, designed to keep you in the game until you can hit them back. If your opponent doesn't have em, you can use transports and a Howie rush of your own to beat his negligible defenses into the floor...and conquer an entire continent in a turn.

At least...those are my ideas. Feel free to give critisism.

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I dunno. I think nukes are cool..If you're the only one who has em.

didn't we just have a thread on this
BTW movement rate is 2 not 3.

Oh and I've never had a problem with howies from the AI player. Even when they manage to get that high a tech (not so often) they only build 3 to 5. I have never been attacked by more than 5 howies in 1 or 2 turns.
[This message has been edited by Dissident Aggressor (edited November 23, 2000).]

[Like2frolick]

Agreed. The only problem is that in Multi-Player, if you get that far, you have to have a way to defend...

that would be interesting. I don't have MGE, but that is the only way I think I would enjoy it. The buildup would be tedious. But I like to build up and fight with modern weapons. To do this in MP would be great.

[Richard Bruns]

I have done tests and found that units that ignore city walls also ignore fortresses. The fortresses have no effect on defense; they simply prevent all of teh units from dying at once.

I have MGE 1.3 What version do you have, Like2frolick?

[Like2frolick]

I have ToT. Dammit, you're kidding, they ignore fortresses, too!?

Well, there goes my idea.

You should still build the fortresses, and put em on hills. cause they still have to expend a lot of rescources(just make sure ya put your rail line through a hill, just cause it doesn't take 2 movements to zip over doesn't mean it isn't a hill! Better yet, a Nice Mountain range with one route through would be an efficient use of resources.

6(Mecyh inf)+3(Vet..ALWAYS use Veterans)+3(Fortify Command+3(hill, or +6 for a mountain..)=12-18 Defense

A Veteran Howitzer has an attack of 18, so three guys in a fortification on a mountain are able to kill off three howitzers. ::Sulks::

Darn, and I should I was doing it well, too...

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I dunno. I think nukes are cool..If you're the only one who has em.

[Blaupanzer]

Couldn't you just use a rotation of bombers to bottleneck your rail lines. They'd have to be far enough back to prevent fighters from screwing it up. But it should keep another Multiplayer from landing boatloads of howies and taking out the heart of the empire. Am I missing something? Howitzers can't bypass them or kill them.
[This message has been edited by Blaupanzer (edited November 29, 2000).]

[Like2frolick]

The problem with the rotating bomber trick is this: It's a CHEAT!

It wasn't what they designed for...so I don't use it.

[Deity Dude]

Could you please explain the rotation of bombers - i've seen it mentioned here a few times but i've never seen it explained

well I've only used it once or twice when I was desperate

really simple really. As you know bomber can end their turn outside of cities due to their range (in the text file). Just park a bomber on top of railroad tracks and any land units the ai has cannot attack nor pass by (unless they leave the tracks of course). You use 2 bombers to rotate so you have constant coverage over a specific spot. And one reason this works so well is because the ai does not use fighters effectively. They usually use them up bombing stuff including cities. And if they are in your land, they are usually out of reach of their fighters (if they have any). And the ai cannot use aircraft carriers effectively. So their land amries never have any fighter support outside of their land.

[This message has been edited by Dissident Aggressor (edited November 30, 2000).]

[Blaupanzer]

quote: Originally posted by Like2frolick on 11-29-2000 11:20 PM The problem with the rotating bomber trick is this: It's a CHEAT! It wasn't what they designed for...so I don't use it.

It is NOT a cheat. It is called interdiction bombing, a common tactic in WW II, used to block railway or roadway use. Bombers would not exert a ZOC if this was not a possible use.
Now fortified bombers, THAT is clearly a cheat.
It's a shame we can't have fighters fly CAP over our ships and land forces, another use of air to assist ground activities.

[Like2frolick]

The rotating bomber trick is a trick, a flaw, or a cheat.

Here's how it is.

Your fighters have to attack the unit with the highest defense rating....which isn't bombers.

So you put 2 Mech Inf in a fortress opn a Mountain....now, granted, you're proberably going to have a bloodbath unless you use nukes on that hard point anyway, but your bombers, attack:6(I think)

come up against Mech Inf: 6+3+3+6=18....

Your fighters are shot down in job lots, and nothing else can attack, simply becauyse nothing except a fighter can hit a bomber!

See? S'a cheat. Now, if the fighter attacked the bomber, and THEN the others attacked the ground units, that would be cool.

[SandMonkey]

a mech infantry in a fortress on a mountain...

wouldn't that be: 6 (original defense) *1.5 (fotrified in a fortress bonus - 50%) *3 (+200% defense for mountain) = 27.

[Like2frolick]

Actually, I don't think the bonuses are cumulative.

So, for example, a Vet Phalanx fortified on a fortification in the mountains

2+1(Vet)+1(fort command)+4(fortifications+4(Mountains)=11 defense....Not
2+1+1.5+7(150% for fortifications)+21(150% for mountain)

err. Or something. ::Ponders::

[Richard Bruns]

The bomber blocking is not a cheat; it is exactly what the designers intended. The MGE manual lists this on page 89:

quote: In fact, Bombers prevent enemy units from even entering, much less attacking, the square they occupy.

I don't know if they intended the fighter to attack the ground units first, though.

The combat bonuses all affect the original defense strength. Add up the %increase, then apply it.

For example, a phalanx in a city with walls on a mountain: 50% vet + 50% fortified + 200% mountains + 200% city walls = 500% increase, So it has its defense increased by 10, giving a total defense of 12.

A mech infantry defending against bombers or howies in a mountain gets a 300% increase, so the defense is 6+(6*3) or 24. Plenty of defense against vet howies, and the mech infantry is cheaper as well.

[TCO]

The MGE manual was written after civ2 was out for a while. Those lazy designers just didn't want to fix it...

[Smash]

I think the fact that the AI will use the bomber stack is evidence that it was intended.

Then again,maybe it was an accident.

[Blaupanzer]

Abetter design solution would permit a more complex air war. Nonetheless, bomber interdiction is standard modern warfare doctrine, represented very well by the bomber block (with or without the stack of ground units).

[DaveP]

quote: Originally posted by GP on 12-03-2000 10:48 PM The MGE manual was written after civ2 was out for a while. Those lazy designers just didn't want to fix it...

Sorry, the use of bombers to prevent land units from entering was first documented in the Civ I manual, long before Civ II.

Dave

[mindseye]

quote: In fact, Bombers prevent enemy units from even entering, much less attacking, the square they occupy.

I suspect it was a simple matter of programming cost. The only way around this would be to allow enemy ground units to occupy the same space as a friendly bomber. Think of the implications for other routines throughout the entire game engine that would now have to deal with the situation of an enemy unit and a friendly unit occupying the same space.

My hunch is that the design team decided all of the extra programming required just wasn't worth it for somewhat more realistic bombers, so they didn't bother. Unfortunately, game designers seldom have infinite programming resources available.

- mindseye

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The bomber trick does get kinda cheap when you have a bomber and a howie under it next to a city.