Perfect timing in OCC

[freshman]

So for those of us who play OCC I thought I'd open up a discussion of timing, since exploiting timing can gain many turns.

1) effects of Mysticism takes next turn following discovery, so you can't lower your lux. the turn before

2) effects of Shakespear's Theater occur on the turn it is built - which means you can 0 your luxury, sell your Colessium/Temple the turn immediately before you build it.

3) Research lab effects are AFTER you build it - so you can't adjust your science lower in anticipation of finishing building it.

4) We Love takes a turn before you start to see effects

5) Population limits are lifted the same turn an Aqueduct / Sewer System are built, and before pop gain from WeLove are taken into account, which means if you are already Celebrating and at size 8, you can build an Aqueduct next turn, and grow to size 9.

6) Any pop gain happens before science and taxes are calculated and added to your coffers; the pop gain will choose the square with the highest food first, then highest production, then highest trade. So one trick is to road up the highest food square before you are about to grow.

7) Any research built up BEFORE Darwin is built is carried over. I don't think current research is added (ie. can't get 3 tech in 1 turn), so you might as well set Science Rate to 0 before building Darwin.

8) Discovery of Flight canceling Colussus happens after science has been calculated (duh!) and after taxes has been added.

9) Don't deliver cargo between (Invention,Navigation) and Corporation; money is slashed

10) Science improvements and Tax Improvements (Marketplace,Bank,Stock Exchange, Library, University) effect take place the turn they are built? So adjust your science rate turn before in anticipation of what your new science will be.

11) Science Wonders effects take place the turn they are built? So adjust your science rate turn before in anticipation of what your new science will be.


-----------------------------
Don't take anything I say as fact - I'm not sure about half these things. I'm hoping to get feedback from experts who've played more than the 3 total games of OCC that I've played.

I know there's a lot of other stuff I've missed

[freshman]

10 and 3 disagree - which proves that I don't know what I'm talking about. Can somebody who is an authority on OCC please clarify how it works

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by freshman
5) Population limits are lifted the same turn an Aqueduct / Sewer System are built, and before pop gain from WeLove are taken into account, which means if you are already Celebrating and at size 8, you can build an Aqueduct next turn, and grow to size 9.

wrong. if you have a size 8 city with a full food store and buy the aqueduct, it won't grow to size 9 on the next turn. same for sewer system. I don't know about WLTxDs...

and if you buy a granary in a city with full food store, the sotre will not be half ful on the next turn.

[freshman]

I know its true for WeLove celebrations. Just look at any log and you'll see the line Aqueduct,S9 everywhere. You may be right about normal food growth; I thought the effect would be the same.

[KrazyHorse]

Well, Ecthelion, it definitely works for WLTxD.

[Ecthy]

fair enough. I've hjust noticed the food storage thing short time ago, so I was keen on getting rid of it publicly

[EOL]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
wrong. if you have a size 8 city with a full food store and buy the aqueduct, it won't grow to size 9 on the next turn. same for sewer system. I don't know about WLTxDs...

Celebrating size 8 city with a full food box and an aquaduct built that turn will become a size 9 city with an empty food box next turn.

Celebrating size 8 city with a nearly full food box and an aquaduct built that turn will become a size 9 city with a slightly less full food box (depending how much food you produce, you add sheeves but have a bigger box to fill).

Celebrating size 8 city with a full food box and no aquaduct becomes a size 8 city with an empty food box.

A non-celebrating size 8 city with a full food box and an aquaduct built that turn becomes size 8 with an empty food box.

[Ecthy]

are you sure those are all permutations?

(I suppose those are all, since 2^2=4 )

well, an almost-full food store often seems to be better than a full one... especially if the city is on hunger and has an active settler

[Paul]

1) effects of Mysticism takes next turn following discovery, so you can't lower your lux. the turn before

Never paid much attention to that but I believe you're right

2) effects of Shakespear's Theater occur on the turn it is built - which means you can 0 your luxury, sell your Colessium/Temple the turn immediately before you build it.

Right, that can save you a turn of maintenance and give you extra tax money or start WLTCD immediately on that turn.

3) Research lab effects are AFTER you build it - so you can't adjust your science lower in anticipation of finishing building it.

Wrong, see 10

4) We Love takes a turn before you start to see effects

Right

5) Population limits are lifted the same turn an Aqueduct / Sewer System are built, and before pop gain from WeLove are taken into account, which means if you are already Celebrating and at size 8, you can build an Aqueduct next turn, and grow to size 9.

Right, WLTPD growth takes place after the improvement is built. But for normal growth you need to have it built the turn before.

6) Any pop gain happens before science and taxes are calculated and added to your coffers; the pop gain will choose the square with the highest food first, then highest production, then highest trade. So one trick is to road up the highest food square before you are about to grow.

I believe that's wrong, at least for WLTPD growth. Tax and science are added before WLTPD growth takes place. But it may work differently with normal growth; after all we already mentioned at 5 that the two types of growth don't happen at the same moment in the city processing.

7) Any research built up BEFORE Darwin is built is carried over. I don't think current research is added (ie. can't get 3 tech in 1 turn), so you might as well set Science Rate to 0 before building Darwin.

Wrong. Research built up before Darwin is lost. That's why in OCC you should always finish Darwin when the beaker-box is empty. Beakers accumulated after Darwin is built (including from the city that built Darwin) will be added to the new research goal, but it will start from zero.

8) Discovery of Flight canceling Colussus happens after science has been calculated (duh!) and after taxes has been added.

Of course.

9) Don't deliver cargo between (Invention,Navigation) and Corporation; money is slashed

Corporation itself doesn't improve the bonus. It's just the freight that you can build will get double bonus. So if you still have caravans after Inv or Nav there's no reason to delay delivery until after corporation.

10) Science improvements and Tax Improvements (Marketplace,Bank,Stock Exchange, Library, University) effect take place the turn they are built? So adjust your science rate turn before in anticipation of what your new science will be.

Right. And when you set the new science rate, keep in mind that each of the science improvements adds 50% of your basic science rate. With a library you have 1.5 times base science and when you add a university you will get 2.0 times base science. Add a research lab for 2.5 times base science.

So when you build a university your new science output becomes 2.0/1.5 = 1.333... times your current science output. And when you add a lab your new science output becomes 2.5/2.0 = 1.25 times your current science output.

11) Science Wonders effects take place the turn they are built? So adjust your science rate turn before in anticipation of what your new science will be.

Right. And don't forget that the manual is wrong about the effects of Newton and Cope. Cope doubles your science output (including bonus from science improvements) and Newton adds 50% of your science output (including bonus from science improvements and Cope).

[Smash]

Discovering and switching governments on an oedo turns keeps "we love" going.Especially useful during Republic celebrations and Democracy is discovered before celebrations are finished.Also if you celebrate in Monarchy and get Republic.Growth can begin immediately.

[freshman]

Wrong. Research built up before Darwin is lost. That's why in OCC you should always finish Darwin when the beaker-box is empty. Beakers accumulated after Darwin is built (including from the city that built Darwin) will be added to the new research goal, but it will start from zero.

Thanks Paul,
though you can see how I got confused (I saw a partially full research before and after Darwin). So always build Darwin the turn after an advance! And use Samson's beaker formula to determine what your next beaker count will be after 2 more techs are added - has anyone out there timed this perfectly to get an immediate advance after Darwin?? It certainly looks like good 'ol Ribannah can do this.

[freshman]

Wait - I'm still confused. Is it possible to get 3 advances in one turn when Darwin is built?

[freshman]

I guess superhighways also act as a science improvement or wonder, in that the effects take place on the turn it is built, before science and tax are calculated.

Does anyone have a list of order things are processed?
ie.
Normal Pop Growth
Production Added -> if built, effects take place (Improvement/Wonder)
Luxury calculated->if unhappy, revolt,
If celebration=Monarchy, compute trade as Republic
Science/Tax Calculated
If celebration=growth, do growth


This is not a definitive list

[EOL]

yes, 3 advances are possible, if you're producing enough science for a one turn advance from either, all the cities checked before the one that builds it (plus the beakers already colleected) - or - all the cities checked after it is built (including the building city itself, which is obviously the only one in OCC).

[Ecthy]

well, you can even get 3 techs per turn when you have the right empire size, which even means you can get a hell lot of techs per turn with a big empire and building darwin

[freshman]

Hey - new topic - same idea (micromanagement tips)- rounding!

10 trade, 70% science rate = 7 base beakers
11 trade, 70% science rate = 8 base beakers, right? [round up]
9 trade, 70% science rate = 6 base beakers, right? [round down]
9 trade, 50% science rate = 5 base beakers? or 4 base beakers? or do your other modifiers effect things before base beakers are calculated?

Now I know trade (other than corruption, of course) is not wasted, so you can't always round down.
9 trade 50% science, 50%tax is either 4/5 or 5/4 but not 4/4 nor 5/5. Which benifits first from rounding - tax, lux, or science?
How 'bout something really complicated:
50% Science, 20% Tax, 30%Lux, 15 trade:
Is it 8sci/3tax/4 or 7sci/3tax/5lux
what about
Library is +50%,
so 4 base beakers = 6 beakers
and 5 base beakers = 7 beakers? or 8?

Lib+Univ+Cop's = 100%+50% = multiply by 3, no rounding, right?
Lib+Univ+Cop's+Isacs = 100%+50% +100% = multiply by 6, no rounding, right?

[Paul]

9 trade 50% science, 50%tax is either 4/5 or 5/4 but not 4/4 nor 5/5. Which benifits first from rounding - tax, lux, or science?How 'bout something really complicated:
50% Science, 20% Tax, 30%Lux, 15 trade:
Is it 8sci/3tax/4 or 7sci/3tax/5lux

With just tax/lux the extra trade arrow goes to science; I wouldn't know exactly how it does this when you add luxuries.

what about
Library is +50%,
so 4 base beakers = 6 beakers
and 5 base beakers = 7 beakers? or 8?

These bonuses are always rounded down, but I'm not 100% sure if all bonuses are added before rounding down. So your 5 base beakers will become 7 with library, but when you add a university it could become either 9 (both bonuses rounded down from 2.5 to 2) or 10 (rounding takes place after 2.5+2.5 are added).

Lib+Univ+Cop's = 100%+50% = multiply by 3, no rounding, right?
Lib+Univ+Cop's+Isacs = 100%+50% +100% = multiply by 6, no rounding, right?

As I mentioned in my earlier post, the manual switched the effects of Cope and Newton, so Cope would add 100% and Newton would add 50%. And I just wrote that I'm not 100% sure of the rounding. I would load a game to check it, but I just reinstalled Windows and didn't get around to installing Civ2 yet.

[freshman]

but I just reinstalled Windows and didn't get around to installing Civ2 yet.

Paul, sit down. Let me ask, and tell me honestly, where are your priorities? Civ2 is the only Operating System you should need.

[freshman]

woah! What version of Civ do YOU have? I have v.1 Civ II for Macintosh (1997), and Cop's is definitly 50%, Isac 100%.
Are you sure you aren't doing the cumulative thing correctly.
Cop's on top of a library+university is Mult*2, Mult *1.5 for a net multiplier of 3 which to you might SEEM like 100% added if you ADD the percentages first for +100+100=+200 or *3 again.

The way I believe they are calculated:
Library, University, Research Lab gives a multiplier of 1.5,2,or 2.5
Cops gives another multiplier of 1.5
Isacs gives yet another multiplier of 2

So University, RL bonuses are ADDED on top of the Library;
The rest is MULTIPLIED.
________________No Wonder__Cops___Isac___Cops+Isac
No_Improvement__1x_________1.5x____2x____3x______
Library__________1.5x________2.25x___3x____4.5x___ _
University________2x_________3x______4X___6X______
Research Lab_____2.5x________3.75x___5x____7.5x____


So Cops is 1.5 times the first column
Isac is 2 times the first column
And Cops+Isac is 3 times the first column

I will definitly check this out when I get home

[freshman]

Seems I'm totally wrong - samson builds Cop's before Colossus to get double science in his 76AD landing.
It just surprises me 'cause Cops is only 6 caravans and Newtons is 8 caravans.
You learn something every day

[Smash]

I use the mac versions and Copes doubles while Isaac is 50%.Isaac's needs improvements to work at full capability.It is backwards in the mac civlopedia also.

[freshman]

Thanks Smash - nice to know someone out there with a Mac-version; are there any patches for Mac? are there any major differences between Mac and this 2.42 I hear about?
Is there a 2.42 for Mac?

So the actual table should be:
________________No Wonder__Isac___Cops___Cops+Isac
No_Improvement__1x_________1.5x____2x____3x______
Library__________1.5x________2.25x___3x____4.5x___ _
University________2x_________3x______4X___6X______

Research Lab_____2.5x________3.75x___5x____7.5x____

??? (Just switched the table heading Cops and Isac's around)
How 'bout rounding issues?

[freshman]

Here's how it works - (I was finally able to test this stuff out):

Ignoring specialists, improvements, and wonders, your tax/luxury/science output is calculated from your tax-rates and your net trade (minus corruption) with rounding. If a fraction is above .5 it is rounded up, if it is .5 or less, it is rounded down. All of your trade should be accounted for, except possibly 1 more excess, which gets added to your GOLD.

As an example if you have 5 trade:
a 0-5-5 (tax-lux-sci) rate yields 1/2/2 (50% of 5 is 2 rounded down, only 4 trade are accounted for so there was 1 excess which goes to tax).
a 0-4-6 rate yields 0/2/3 - no rounding in this example
a 0-3-7 rate yields 1/1/3 - (30% of 5 is 1 rounded down, 70% of 5 is 3 rounded down, 1 excess goes to tax)
a 5-0-5 rate yields 3/0/2 (50% of 5 is 2 for tax and sci., 1 excess goes to tax)

Thats the story of the base quantities calculation.

Specialists = add 3 to your base tax/lux/sci

Improvements = get that extra 50%,100%,150% and always round down if your base is an odd number (fractions of .5 are always rounded down)

Wonders: special

Here's a table of all combinations of Science Wonders and Improvements:

Improvements__None__Library__Univ__Lab
None_________x1____x1.5r____x2___x2.5r
Cops_________x2____x1.5r,x2__x4___x2.5r,x2
Isacs_________x1____x2______x3___x4
C+I__________x2____x4______x6___x8

Here's the true story of wonders effects:
Isacs does NOT double science output as is mentioned in the Civilopedia; it does however double the bonus from a science improvement.
Compare the None line with Isacs line.
A library is +50% (1.5x) and with Isacs is +100% (2x)
A University is +100% (2x) and with Isacs is +200% (3x)
A Research Lab is +150% (2.5x) and with Isacs is +300% (4x)

Copernicus simply doubles the previous calculation, which includes any rounding.
A science base of 9 with a Library and Copernicus is [9*1.5]*2 = 13*2 = 26

So a one line summary is Isacs doubles science improvements, Copernicus doubles your science after improvements are taken into account.

[Ecthy]

sh!t, what a big load of micromanagement calculations... do you chaps really work with that stuff?

doesn't it take all the fun?

[freshman]

Ecthelion,
I certainly don't manage things down to EVERY beaker, but within 1 or 2 %. Rounding is minor, and I don't plan on using that knowledge, but a question as to how rounding worked when you had multiplicative factors with Wonders came up earlier in this thread that I researched and answered. Knowing how Newtons works is extremely important, because some people have claimed it is 50%, the manual (civilopedia) claims its 100% total science; and it's actually neither. Big factors in science make a difference.

BTW, if you ever study an insanely gifted OCCer, try looking at some of Ribannah's logs; she has a super tight game. Heck, I'm still trying to figure out how she eeked out a one turn advance of 1007 beakers with superhighways at size 22. I (and others) were only able to manage 2 turn advances after superhighways. Of course, I think she did one or 2 more squares of terraforming that I think answers her secret. But still, she must only clear her beaker count by less than 1% error. Tight!

[Smash]

Original or classic civ2 for mac contained all of the fixes of 2.42.It is the same.

There is a patch for MGE which had mainly MP fixes and a slightly improved "go to" command.Some faulty messages like "Berlin attacked by cruise aquaducts" were fixed also.

yes a tech after Darwin's is common.Good idea to raise the rate a touch in anticipation of additional beakers required from the 2 freebies.


Someone did a test that indicated slightly less beakers overall were required in MGE as compared to 2.42.In light of the key civ,#of civs,etc info we now know,this might or might not be the case.

[Ecthy]

I have to admit I tend to do some statistical calculations as well, just to get my economic efficiency high a bit... I don't even force WLTxDs usually, but I do it when I'm behind another civ... similar about calculations... only used when necessary

[Edward]

freshman,

My hat is off to you! Thanks for researching researching. I'm one of those players who incorrectly thought Issac Newton's College increased your pre-Issac rate by 50%.

Thanks!