Thread Tools
Old December 15, 2000, 02:00   #1
Like2frolick
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 23:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: St Louis, Mo, USA
Posts: 59
Knights v Crusaders.
I've noticed one of the things lots of people have said is "use vet vrusaders in battle line" etc etc.

Why?

A crusader has 2 move, and an attack of 7.5, when Veteran. Against a Phalanx (2+1+1+4) That just might be enough to win...against a pikeman, it proberably isn't.

So, what we have here is a big, expensive unit, which, if it's attacked by a cheap archer (or a WARRIOR for God's sake!) will die.

Now, Knights I like. They have a 6* attack, and a 3* defense...and they move for 2. They can kill a non-walled city, and they can kill "loose" units with little trouble.

Now...I've seen some people talking about how you should use Settlers to build a fortress right outside the gates, and stack defensive units on top of 2-3 catapaults. This seems like a reasonable suggestion

Catapault:9* attack....against pikemen or Phalanx, it will almost guarantee a kill(Thanks for that idea, BTW)

So, my question is....why Build crusaders? I mean...they have to end a turn away from the enemy, or stacked with a good defensive unit, which reduces mobility significantly, while Knights can ride on up next to the enemy, and take whatever they throw at-em.

In addition, you get Knights/Catapaults sooner...

So, I was wondering, is there some kind of uber-strategt I could use, where Crusaders are cool? I mean, if so many good players say that Crusaders are good, then they must be good for SOMETHING....I just need to know what.

Why would you build a fragile unit which has a good chance of Losing offensively to a walled city, and a great chance of losing if attacked, when you could get a Knight, stack it with a catapault, and have a good chance of keeping both units?

------------------
I dunno. I think nukes are cool..If you're the only one who has em.
Like2frolick is offline  
Old December 15, 2000, 02:13   #2
Dissident Aggressor
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
good point. I don't believe anyone has ever built one in the history of the game.

I like knights myself. I rarely do much conquering in that time. But in alexander scenarios they work good in conjunction with catapults and archers. I don't even build fortresses many times. I feel my archer can defend against most units if it is on hills or better. although every once in a while a catapult will take out my stack. I try to use 2 or 3 separate stacks of 3 units. knight/catapult/archer. The ai is hopeless to defend against this strategy.

since you have the asterick I'm sure you know the knight attack is 4 and the crusader is 5. But their defense isn't so hot. So I usually stick with knights. In my above strategy I use knights to kill all loose units. so they need to have some shot at defending against a pikeman or phalanx. although archers will probably take them on flat ground.
[This message has been edited by Dissident Aggressor (edited December 15, 2000).]
 
Old December 15, 2000, 03:39   #3
Laertes
Civilization III Democracy Game
Prince
 
Laertes's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 375
One reason I like to have some crusaders is for picking off barbarian legions or AI units on good defensive ground. A knights attack points often are not enough.

With a crusader and some roads, you can defend 3-4 cities with one unit.
Laertes is offline  
Old December 15, 2000, 06:48   #4
Scouse Gits
lifer
Civilization II PBEMTrade Wars / BlackNova TradersGalCiv Apolyton EmpireApolytoners Hall of FameCivilization II Succession Games
Emperor
 
Scouse Gits's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Liverpool, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,344
Oh yes they have - scores (if not hundreds) of them.

Although Feudalism and Sun Tzu followed rapidly by Chivalry and Knights is an excellent strategy for early conquest, I find that it's utility on large maps (and now Giga maps - thanks Julius) is less than that of the 'happy route' racing for Monotheism (Crusaders) and Mike's. I use these (the Crusaders) to take out my immediate neighbours while I am still in Monarchy - then we go for the long haul probably leading to AC unless the great sleaze actually reaches the distant neighbours (not a common thing on a Giga map).

You are of course correct - given a simple choice a Knight is almost always superior to a Crusader, but in this game nothing is ever that simple!



P.S. added in Edit - and as far as 'perhaps beating a Phalanx' goes, my vet Crusaders have successfully taken walled cities with Musketeers (thankfully not vet) in defence - you lose some Crusaders, but you get the city!
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'."
- Paul Craven

[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited December 15, 2000).]
Scouse Gits is offline  
Old December 15, 2000, 06:54   #5
WorkEd
Settler
 
Local Time: 23:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Work-land
Posts: 1
The reason I like Crusaders and not Knights is that as soon as you research Chivalry you get barb Knights!

Ouch! I'd rather have barb archers and horsemen anyday!

WorkEd
WorkEd is offline  
Old December 15, 2000, 08:46   #6
DaveV
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
King
 
DaveV's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: USA - EDT (GMT-5)
Posts: 2,051
One of the most common uses for crusaders is to hop off a boat and attack a city. The AI (and some humans ) is notorious for leaving lots of cities thinly defended. If you do run into a stiff defense, the extra 1.5 attack factor can be crucial. According to the generally-accepted algorithm for combat resolution, any difference between atttack factor and defense factor is effectively doubled, so seemingly small differences in attack can make a big difference in practice.
DaveV is offline  
Old December 15, 2000, 09:19   #7
Ming
lifer
Civilization II MultiplayerCivilization III MultiplayerPolyCast TeamCivilization IV: MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of Fame
Retired
 
Ming's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Mingapulco - CST
Posts: 30,317
The extra 1.5 attack can make all the difference in the world. Yes, I plan on lossing some of them, but it usually takes less crusaders than knights to take out a target. Plus, I usually race down the happiness wonders path unless I know I don't have a chance of winning the race to Mich's. If I think I'm behind, I race toward Invention. Chivalry is on neither path.
I might take that option if I know I'm going to lose the race to both of them.
Ming is offline  
Old December 15, 2000, 09:42   #8
kcbob
King
 
kcbob's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Kansas City, MO USA
Posts: 1,460
On this butterfly ballot, I vote for Crusaders. While the Knights have a better defensive rating, usually at this point in the game, I'm on the attack. As Ming mentioned, even though I might lose some Crusaders, I subscribe to the best defense being a good offense.

BTW. Stacking a catapult with a knight hampers the knights mobility, n'est-ce pas?

------------------
Frodo lives!
[This message has been edited by kcbob (edited December 15, 2000).]
kcbob is offline  
Old December 15, 2000, 09:43   #9
Martin Schmidt
Settler
 
Local Time: 23:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Germany
Posts: 21

Hi,

Crusaders bonus attack can make a real difference
against a veteran phalanx . Because they are the
cheaper unit i would consider them better .
Martin Schmidt is offline  
Old December 15, 2000, 12:13   #10
Mercantile
Settler
 
Local Time: 23:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Westcoast of Canada
Posts: 9
Crusaders cost the same as knights IIRC I subscribe to the vet crusader strategy as well. As stated above, you might as well take as much firepower with you, it cost the same. If your worried about defense than attach a few pikemen with your assault, which is always a good idea anyways.

I have found that knights stall far more quickly and suffer horrible losses to pikemen, whereas you will lose a few , but not nearly as many crusaders.

Mercantile is offline  
Old December 15, 2000, 12:44   #11
Sieve Too
Prince
 
Local Time: 23:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Posts: 917
Here's another vote for Crusaders over Knights. When AI or Barb Legions are coming at me over hills and forests, I'll take the extra attack strength of the Crusader any day over the weaker Knight.

The Knight's additional defense generally isn't a factor the way I play. Any early attacker (Archer, Legion, Knight, Elephant, even Horseman) can defeat or at least critically damage a Knight. Sure you can move your Knight into the hills or mountains, but then you lose the Knight's mobility, which is why you probably built it in the first place.

As Ming noted, Knights are usually off my normal tech paths, while Crusaders fall right on it. If you plan to use the Warriors-to-Musketeers trick with Leo, going after Knights early drastically reduces your window of oppurtunity with el cheapo Warriors.

All that being said, I still build Knights once they become available. They keep up with my conquering Crusaders and Diplos but unlike them, they can actually defend a city for while if I need to slow up my advance.
Sieve Too is offline  
Old December 15, 2000, 17:34   #12
Bohlen
Prince
 
Bohlen's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: of Space
Posts: 342
quote:

Originally posted by Sieve Too on 12-15-2000 11:44 AM
The Knight's additional defense generally isn't a factor...


I would totally agree with that. If you are concerned with the defensive capabilities of either unit, don't be. While the Knight's defense is slightly better, it is still not strong enough defensively to survive 100% of the time on the terrain types that they usually travel on - flat terrain. Either unit is used best in wide open spaces, so it really makes since to bring along a defensive unit or two during the charge forward.

Having said that, I usually stick with Knights based largely of the fact that Chivalry comes sooner than Monotheism in my games and I just build them by habit after discovering Mono. However, as stated earlier, Crusaders are great on shore assaults, and if you have a lot of vets, they can fight right past the city walls of your enemies.
Bohlen is offline  
Old December 15, 2000, 19:59   #13
suas333
Prince
 
Local Time: 23:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Brooklyn, NY, U.S
Posts: 466
I use crusaders, no knights at all. I get monotheism early anyway, and i never research chivalry until real late. And thats not even counting the barb knights.
suas333 is offline  
Old December 16, 2000, 01:06   #14
Deity Dude
Civilization II MultiplayerDiploGamesCivilization IV: Multiplayer
King
 
Deity Dude's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Westland, Michigan
Posts: 2,346
CRUSADERS without a doubt. After monarchy the next thing i go for is monotheism, you get Mike's and Crusaders all on the same tech path - plus if you play it right you're the first to get philosophy which means one free tech on the way. Keeping that in mind, with a crusader i can get an offensive 5 unit way quicker than getting an offensive 4 unit, with a knight. At that point in the game it is the most powerful unit in play, by far. Most cities won't even have walls yet. In fact crusaders are pretty much dominant on offense until you start running into riflemen w/city walls, and that usually takes quite awhile. As far as the defense is concerned who cares - I got my fortified phalanxes or muskateers playing defense where defense belongs - in my cities. In addition, Crusaders are upgradable with Leo's and share alot of the same techs as invention (i would have to look but i think more techs in common than chivalry)

[This message has been edited by Deity Dude (edited December 16, 2000).]
Deity Dude is offline  
Old December 16, 2000, 01:06   #15
Blaupanzer
lifer
Emperor
 
Blaupanzer's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fairfax, VA
Posts: 3,810
Knights can also jump into all the silly forts the AI builds. This helps while bringing up the heavies. But crusaders are the attackers of choice in that period.
Blaupanzer is offline  
Old December 17, 2000, 00:55   #16
Like2frolick
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 23:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: St Louis, Mo, USA
Posts: 59
Hmmm..... Must try Crusaders, then.
Like2frolick is offline  
Old December 17, 2000, 01:52   #17
Ming
lifer
Civilization II MultiplayerCivilization III MultiplayerPolyCast TeamCivilization IV: MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of Fame
Retired
 
Ming's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Mingapulco - CST
Posts: 30,317
quote:

Originally posted by Like2frolick on 12-16-2000 11:55 PM
Hmmm..... Must try Crusaders, then.


Good Idea

Ming is offline  
Old December 17, 2000, 09:47   #18
Seeker
Emperor
 
Seeker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Yongsan-Gu, Seoul
Posts: 3,647
I always end up with Crusaders 'cause I'm at Monotheism long before I'm at feaudalism (usually).

In fact, I rarely ever build knights. Instead, I'll build cats to upgrade to cannon.
Seeker is offline  
Old December 17, 2000, 10:47   #19
Ken Hinds
Prince
 
Local Time: 18:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: USA
Posts: 464
Peanut Gallary comment here. To get free Knight's with Leo's you need a lot of fairly useless (IMO) horsemen, but free Cruisader's can be had from fairly useful elephants.

Ken
Ken Hinds is offline  
Old December 17, 2000, 10:53   #20
Kitana
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 23:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Ottawa,Ontario,Canada
Posts: 82
I would have to say both. The reason is this: Crusaders are a good attack unit to have IN your cities so if an Archer or Catapult or Knight does come up to your city you can take it out with out much problem.

Knights are good OUT of your city because they can take an attack (usually) if they end their turn close to a city and are attacked by an Archer or Catapult or even a Crusader.

So I vote for both.


------------------
Kitana
Shogun of the Japanese
Kitana is offline  
Old December 18, 2000, 08:59   #21
kcbob
King
 
kcbob's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Kansas City, MO USA
Posts: 1,460
quote:

Originally posted by Ken Hinds on 12-17-2000 09:47 AM
Peanut Gallary comment here. To get free Knight's with Leo's you need a lot of fairly useless (IMO) horsemen, but free Cruisader's can be had from fairly useful elephants.

Ken


This is an interesting observation. I, too, find horsemen to be not worth the time and effort. If I'm playing a strict ICS game, I make a beeline for elephants. Then, with Leo's and Mono, voila!!

As an added note, I also like to head for Leadership if I have a sizable supply of Crusaders. Dragoons are a nice upgrade.

------------------
Frodo lives!
kcbob is offline  
Old December 18, 2000, 11:55   #22
Edward
Warlord
 
Local Time: 18:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 267
quote:

I, too, find horsemen to be not worth the time and effort.


Horsemen can be good for early exploration. I generally build warriors for early exploration, since horseback riding isn't on my peaceful science tech path and warriors are so darned cheap.

In a recent game, I obtained horseback riding in a stupid trade with the Vikings. I found that the lowly horsemen could ride out of my border cities and attack almost any early invader. They even stood an even chance against the mighty legion. (Admittedly the horsemen benefitted from open ground.) I have a new respect for these cheap, fast units.
Edward is offline  
Old December 18, 2000, 12:10   #23
Kitana
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 23:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Ottawa,Ontario,Canada
Posts: 82
quote:

Originally posted by Edward on 12-18-2000 10:55 AM
Horsemen can be good for early exploration. I generally build warriors for early exploration, since horseback riding isn't on my peaceful science tech path and warriors are so darned cheap.

In a recent game, I obtained horseback riding in a stupid trade with the Vikings. I found that the lowly horsemen could ride out of my border cities and attack almost any early invader. They even stood an even chance against the mighty legion. (Admittedly the horsemen benefitted from open ground.) I have a new respect for these cheap, fast units.


I don't usually research horseback riding until after I've got the science wonder techs, engineering and invention. But if I find a horseman I'll use it but generally don't ever build them.




------------------
Kitana
Shogun of the Japanese
Kitana is offline  
Old December 18, 2000, 12:40   #24
Bohlen
Prince
 
Bohlen's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: of Space
Posts: 342
quote:

Originally posted by kcbob on 12-18-2000 07:59 AM
As an added note, I also like to head for Leadership if I have a sizable supply of Crusaders. Dragoons are a nice upgrade.



Ahhh! Leadership! Now THAT is a game buster!

Bohlen is offline  
Old December 18, 2000, 12:41   #25
Edward
Warlord
 
Local Time: 18:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 267
Off-topic meta question:

How do you include quotes in your post which name the original poster?
Edward is offline  
Old December 19, 2000, 01:00   #26
kcbob
King
 
kcbob's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Kansas City, MO USA
Posts: 1,460
quote:

Originally posted by Edward on 12-18-2000 11:41 AM
Off-topic meta question:

How do you include quotes in your post which name the original poster?


The easiest way is to click on the "Reply with Quote" button above the particular message to which you wish to reply. It is possible to key in the proper commands also.

------------------
Frodo lives!
kcbob is offline  
Old December 19, 2000, 01:13   #27
Mercantile
Settler
 
Local Time: 23:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Westcoast of Canada
Posts: 9
kcbob, i too like dragoons and admittedly they are enough against the inept ai, but i would say that calvalry are just waaaaaaaay more powerfull and the upgrade via leos is right around the corner not too mention the musket to riflemen upgrade as well, virtually guarranteeing (spelling???) your invincibility
Mercantile is offline  
Old December 22, 2000, 21:11   #28
Maelhavok
Settler
 
Local Time: 23:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Seattle,Wa. USA
Posts: 28
Horsies? I like Horsies.

Horsemen are good scouts, and early game are indispensable for preemtive strikes. Their ability to catch the Barbarian leader $$ never goes away. Plus they enforce morale as well as any. With roads in my core cities, a few horse can rush to morale flare ups as well as enable me to use economy of force concepts. Not to mention, they're cheap. Finally, Leo's always makes me wish I had built more of them, 'cause knights are so much better.
Knights are everything that Horsmen are but better (cost more too). They fight as well as a legion but with all the advantages of mobility. They can move and fortify! In civs with roads or river squares they are potent scouts/strike units as they can cover 3 squares and be attack-ready and still move 2 squares and fortify (My tactic for sweeping held water and roadways is 3 out 2 back and F).
Elephants aren't horsies.
Crusaders I think of as mobile cannon. They are excellent city crackers, but don't let a bee sting them or they will die.
Utilizing your mobile army for maximum benifit is one of my favorite aspects of the conquest side of Civ2. The AI Monguls are always such a disappointment.

Merry Holidays,

Maelhavok

P.S. Pikemen are evil


P.P.S. Really
[This message has been edited by Maelhavok (edited December 23, 2000).]
Maelhavok is offline  
Old December 24, 2000, 18:22   #29
Matthew
Prince
 
Local Time: 23:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Manhattan, Kansas . USA
Posts: 724
Chivalry is on the tech path for leadership. Monotheism is not. In fact, if you're not going to get MC, you may be better off doing without mono for a while. Build collosseums first instead of Cathedrals. I'm sure that a lot can be said for getting leadership early, especially if you get it well before some big plump civ out there has had a chance to upgrade many units to musketeers.

On the other hand, if you are going to go for an early attack with mobile units, you probably would like Feudalism to not even be in the game yet. If you have it, your intended victim can get it either by stealing it from you, from the GL as soon as someone else gets it, or from retaking a city you captured. And you need Feudalism to get Chivalry.
Matthew is offline  
Old December 24, 2000, 19:25   #30
Ken Hinds
Prince
 
Local Time: 18:48
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: USA
Posts: 464
My biggest complaint about Feudalism/Chivalry is that some yoyo gets Feudalism and right away the bararians start having pikeman and if anyone has ever noticed they also seem to have their own private Tsung-Tsu's. If you don't kill the sucker then your vet 2 move unit is toast if he ever gets back to even yellow let along green. And not long after feudalism rears its head you start seeing caravels dumping out 5 or 6 knights on your doorstep.

One thing that I do find useful about the situation, if I could only control it better, is finding several huts on that the opposition missed amoung their cities and having 8 knights pop out when you tip the hut. That way I don't have to waste troops attacking their cities. The barbs will do that for me and then for a modest fee I get the city and the some of the remaining knights.

Ken
Ken Hinds is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 19:48.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team