The Best: Civ3 or CTP2?

[splangy]

can you guys slow down, im only one person

any way

stacked combat, + good graphics are official, check the old civ 3 website.

they already said that the files would be open, however how open i dont know.

16 civs at a time was confirmed on an interveiw on this site!

you guys have said that civ3 is taking its ideas from ctp again you must remember that just becouse one game was made before another dosent meen that its the game that everyone else copyed, are you gona say that hitler tried to take over europe to copy the romans? are you gona say that europe advanced technologicaly becouse the chinese did it? no, becouse they werent copying them, they did it becouse they could and it was a good idea.

besides, civ3 was being made before ctp came out, they realy couldn't have copied them :rolleyes

somthing ive noticed is that civ players like history and simplicity, ctp players like complexness and futuristic stuff, so in the end it comes down to witch side has more followers and it seems like civ won that title, mainley becouse of its replayability but also thanks to a lack of major bugs. somtimes when i play ctp i get this feeling that one more month and they could have pulled it off

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by splangy

you guys have said that civ3 is taking its ideas from ctp again you must remember that just becouse one game was made before another dosent meen that its the game that everyone else copyed, are you gona say that hitler tried to take over europe to copy the romans? are you gona say that europe advanced technologicaly becouse the chinese did it? no, becouse they werent copying them, they did it becouse they could and it was a good idea.

The thing isnt because CTP was made first. But because CTP was the first one in the genre to use those features we told you.
And most of those feature were presented by CTP1, almost 3 years ago. Civ3 was already under construction but probably had nothing ready on their minds.

And actually many advances from the European were invented and direct "copied" from China like the Compass and Gunpowder.

somthing ive noticed is that civ players like history and simplicity, ctp players like complexness and futuristic stuff

Remake this sentence. The true is that nobody likes complexness not even CTPers.

so in the end it comes down to witch side has more followers and it seems like civ won that title, mainley becouse of its replayability but also thanks to a lack of major bugs. somtimes when i play ctp i get this feeling that one more month and they could have pulled it off

Thats is funny you just proclamed that a game you never played is better in a matter of choice debate.

[lockstep]

A lot of people said "CTP is just a ripoff of Civ2." After reading what will be in Civ3 you could almost say that Civ3 is a ripoff of CTP2.

1. Units support from national pool, not from city built in. (CTP started it)
2. Stacked combat. (CTP started it)
3. Centralised trade system, no more caravans. (CTP started it)
4. Diplomacy bargaining table, multiple requests in a proposal. (CTP started it)
5. Borders. (CTP started it)
6. Special units. (CTP started it)

Some comments, Dale:

1., 2. - I agree. CTP started it.
3., 4., 6. - IMO different concepts, not ripoffs.
5. - I´d say SMAC started it, CTP2 copied it.

[splangy]

Originally posted by Pedrunn





Thats is funny you just proclamed that a game you never played is better in a matter of choice debate.

i more or less ment the civ series as a whole.

and civ3 was already being molded b4 it was released that it would be made so chances are that the ideas were already there.

by the way you seem to think that just becouse ctp has things like stacks first it is the game that every game after this is a copy (im repeating myself by saying this but its a good point) of ctp. but you must understand that things like borders stacks etc are pretty damn obvius (sp?), just becouse ctp was the first to utilise them dosen't meen its creaters are god, it just meens they were the first company to have the technology to use these unbelevably obvius ideas.

[splangy]

Originally posted by Pedrunn





Thats is funny you just proclamed that a game you never played is better in a matter of choice debate.

i more or less ment the civ series as a whole.

and civ3 was already being molded b4 it was released that it would be made so chances are that the ideas were already there.

by the way you seem to think that just becouse ctp has things like stacks first it is the game that every game after this is a copy (im repeating myself by saying this but its a good point) of ctp. but you must understand that things like borders stacks etc are pretty damn obvius (sp?), just becouse ctp was the first to utilise them dosen't meen its creaters are god, it just meens they were the first company to have the technology to use these unbelevably obvius ideas.

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by splangy

i more or less ment the civ series as a whole.

Sorry, but i'm pretty sure CTP2 modded is far better then civ1 and civ2. But i still dont know about civ3. Dont get me wrong but i really want civ3 to be better then ctp2 although i think ctp2 fot the reasons i said will still continue to the best for me. Unless someone make a mod (if it can be easily modded i could do myself) to make it the way i want.

Of course those are obvious ideas that even the stupidest civ player already thought about. But when we say that it was CTP idea it means exacly that it was the first with the guts to use it.
Yin said in a thread before that game series change the concept very slowly to dont make the existent players give up of it. And what could make the producers use those concepts is because they worked well in others games in this case some in CTP.

[splangy]

Originally posted by Pedrunn


Sorry, but i'm pretty sure CTP2 modded is far better then civ1 and civ2. But i still dont know about civ3. Dont get me wrong but i really want civ3 to be better then ctp2 although i think ctp2 fot the reasons i said will still continue to the best for me. Unless someone make a mod (if it can be easily modded i could do myself) to make it the way i want.

sureeeeeeee you keep telling yourself that ctp is better than civ1/2, i beleive all people should have a pointless hobby.

but seriusly, if it was better Modded (theres that word that keeps popping up whenever someone defends ctp) than why does civ have websites dedicated to its greatness and ctp have sites dedicated to warn people not to buy it? you just have to face the facts that civ 1/2 is just sooooooo much better than ctp, and when you say modded its like me calling a group of people pagan, it has no one mod but many, some good some bad but all different, you cant defend a game that only works when moded becouse there is no game, rather a branch of miny games extending from a rotten tree, and like the tree the branches shall soon die. were not really having a debate ctp vs civ3 it seems more like a bunch of random games you sum up in the word "modded"vs civ3, witch hasen't come out yet and somehow it has more forums and posts than ctp, a game that been out for a while, does.

but still we go on.....

[rooboy]

Flog!!!

OK, if you compare the games out of the box, well, I'm quite sure not many would vote for CTP. But although this game was a pile of ****e of the box, it did still introduce a number of clever gameplay features as discussed earlier. I'm not mentioning any mods in this post.

Civ 2 had many flaws as well, such as very simple combat, ****e trade system etc.

Hopefully Civ 3 will be much better than anything released in the past, and in reality, it should be.

[splangy]

Originally posted by rooboy


Civ 2 had many flaws as well, such as very simple combat, ****e trade system etc.

i know this might sound crazy, but you think thats becouse ctp was made after civ (i know, it sounds insane that ctp might just have been the first game to have the ability to utilise good features)

its trade system worked fine, it was also very well tuned with the way civ was played, just becouse you had to actually think and wait to get it there dosen't make it bad.

when they were making civ2 do you think that they liked not having borders and having unrealistic combat???? no, but what were they gona do! they just didn't have the equipment back then to make things like that work.

show me a man who bought ctp2 and ill show you a man who just wasted 30 bucks (or 12 or 5, it depends on wich "trash" bin you got it out of )

[Paulypav]

Splangy, you seem to be missing the point being made here. I, like most of the people who play CTP and CTP II, played Civ II first. Out of the box, Civ II was mile ahead of both CTP games. However, a number of people have made modifications to the game that make it superior to Civ II. Yes there are websites that warn you against CTP and CTP II. Those people never played the mods which make the game into the product that Activision should have sold in the first place.

I gave up on the out of the box version both times until mods came out. In fact, on CTP II, once I figured out how bad it was, I put the game back in the box and decided to wait and see what mods were made. The mods made were outstanding and I now spend many wonderful hours playing the game each day. Since this is the case I don't consider my $30 to be wasted, although I feel the modders deserve the money more than Activision does.

When it comes to copying ideas, I have to say that the Civ series has probably decided to use the ideas now that they saw them work in CTP. And to say that the changes to be made were obvious, means it was obvious to us. We have often seen that game makers do not make the changes that the users think are obvious.

I am hoping that Civ III is better than the modded version of CTP II. I am a fan of both series and since Activision will not be making a sequel to CTP II, I will depend on the genius of Sid Meier to keep me hooked on civ-style games.

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by splangy

show me a man who bought ctp2 and ill show you a man who just wasted 30 bucks (or 12 or 5, it depends on wich "trash" bin you got it out of )

Thats what i call to end up a debate by osmosis instead of giving intelligent arguments. Paulypav just took the words out of my mouth.

Anyway we are never going to come into a point until the release of civ3. I hope it will be better than CTP2 althouhg i still have my doubts about it even with the optimistic feeling civ3.com gave me.

PS: There is no way civ2 is better the CTP2 modded . Am i trying to win by osmosis too or should we start another debate about this point?

[splangy]

Originally posted by Pedrunn

PS: There is no way civ2 is better the CTP2 modded . Am i trying to win by osmosis too or should we start another debate about this point?

im tired of saying it, a few posts up i explained why you can't defend a game that works only when modded becouse tere isn't a game, rather a group of games etc...

[Paulypav]

Actually, I think one of the things that redeems CTP is the fact that it can be modded. You could create scenarios for Civ 2 which were really cool, but I don't think you could make any changes to the game itself. Just about everything in CTP is changeable which makes it far more versatile than the Civ series.

[splangy]

Originally posted by Paulypav
Actually, I think one of the things that redeems CTP is the fact that it can be modded. You could create scenarios for Civ 2 which were really cool, but I don't think you could make any changes to the game itself. Just about everything in CTP is changeable which makes it far more versatile than the Civ series.

you could make quite a few changes to civ.
although its easy to mod its a ****ty game all in all and
NO mod ive d/led seems to change that

[hexagonian]

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=24714

Gee, splangy, weren't these issues EVER modded out of civ2?????

Oh wait, let me guess...it couldn't be done. The funny thing is that you are critical of CTP2 for the same issues. I have no problem acknowledging the flaws in CTP2, but to criticize CTP without admitting the same shortcomings in civ2 seems hypocritical.

Your post on the above thread is especially enlightening.

Once again, it boils down to preference issues...

Originally posted by splangy
im tired of saying it, a few posts up i explained why you can't defend a game that works only when modded becouse tere isn't a game, rather a group of games etc...

HUH?!?!.....

That argument makes little, if any sense at all. Basically what you are saying is that a modded game is worthless - never mind that a modded game can be a platorm in which to build scenarios. I would guess that the many people who have downloaded the CTP2 Mods here at Apolyton should be insulted by that comment, because I have heard a lot of people who have given up on CTP2 unmodified and have since then come back and played the mods with a great deal of satisfaction - even those who are now saying that the Modded CTP2 is better than civ2.

I do expect civ3 to be better than CTP2 unmodified - I just am not convinced yet that it will be better than CTP2 Modded. But we will have to wait on that...

If you are so tired of saying it, there are other threads to haunt.

[hexagonian]

dp

[David Murray]

Hehe!

Brings a smile to my face, thinking about people who think CTP2 is better than Civ3 will be.

Fortunately, they are a small minority and once the rest of us are happily playing Civ3, we'll leave BOTH of the CTP2 fanatics (yes, all two of them!) to their own devices.

[Immortal Wombat]

It brings a smile to my face when I think of all the poor tired Civ2 players who are resting so many hopes on Civ3, but are going to receive a cross between AoK and Civ2, with none of the features that make the CtP series even faintly superior to Civ2.

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by David Murray
Hehe!

Brings a smile to my face, thinking about people who think CTP2 is better than Civ3 will be.

Fortunately, they are a small minority and once the rest of us are happily playing Civ3, we'll leave BOTH of the CTP2 fanatics (yes, all two of them!) to their own devices.

If we continue playing CTP2 is because we think CTP2 is better although you can think the other way around.

Have you ever play CTP2 modded anyway?

[Chronus]

Fortunately, they are a small minority and once the rest of us are happily playing Civ3, we'll leave BOTH of the CTP2 fanatics (yes, all two of them!) to their own devices.

You people are too much!

[splangy]

im gona post this in the civ3 forum to see what happens

IW Said
"It brings a smile to my face when I think of all the poor tired Civ2 players who are resting so many hopes on Civ3, but are going to receive a cross between AoK and Civ2, with none of the features that make the CtP series even faintly superior to Civ2."

well, ctp3 might be like that to, ooops i forgot, you all rested your hopes on a pathetic game that none will make a sequal to and has no support, looks like your mad that civ3 is getting alot of attention and not C(rap) T(o) P(lay).


hexagon- gee, ya think thats becouse civ was created 5 years ago ?besides, ive payed some of the mods and i can tell you, the AI still sucks, it can bareley play any better modded, a (small) group of people on these forums think that and they are alone, plus what this community does has very little impact on the ctp comunity as a whole, but its not like anyone plays multiplay any more.

thats another thing, multiplay for this game died ALONG time ago, whats left is a few 10 year olds who boot you when you take a city from them, thats if enough people can play long enough to get as far as meeting each other.

pedrun- agreed, you can all do what you want, the civers will do what we want, thanks for bringing a little composure to this thread,

JESUS CHRIST why the hell did everyone get so hostile with me, its a discussion, its not me who posted it here and everyone gets REALLY pissed off with me, it wasn't my idea to start this topic, it was my light hearted joke that started it, now your acting as if i came in and anounced that civ3 is better without any support, then made fun of you. i came in for a freindly disscusion, if no one wants that any more than ill just leave. be civilized (no pun intended)

[rooboy]

Relax mate, and have a quiet one.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by splangy
IW Said
"It brings a smile to my face when I think of all the poor tired Civ2 players who are resting so many hopes on Civ3, but are going to receive a cross between AoK and Civ2, with none of the features that make the CtP series even faintly superior to Civ2."

well, ctp3 might be like that to, ooops i forgot, you all rested your hopes on a pathetic game that none will make a sequal to and has no support, looks like your mad that civ3 is getting alot of attention and not C(rap) T(o) P(lay).

No, I'm quite content to have just a small group playing CtP2, and I don't care if its not followed up with CtP3. I had no hopes rested on this game either, look at my registration date, I only found Apolyton two months after the game was released. I think Civ3 will be a good game, and probably well worth playing, but I fail to see how Civ3 can provide a challenging AI where everything before it has failed. I just think a few people, especially in the civ3 forums, are missing enough scepticism to deal with the reality that Civ3 won't be the classic civ2 was, because 70% of it has been seen before, and the AI still wont beat you.

(I'm not being hostile at you, I like a discussion too)

[Pedrunn]

Splangy,
So what if there will never be a CTP3. Many civers are playing civ2 during many years without really think about civ3 since last year.

You do sound agressive sometimes but if someone feels insulted he does not deserve to participate in a debate forum.
Rooboy made a really good point in the above post.

Too bad you did not like CTP2.
After all, what problem you saw in the AI of the modded games?

[hexagonian]

Splangy

Funny, I do not sense any hostility here - I merely point out the inconsistancies in your arguments. Maybe it is you who are feeling hostile when those issues are brought to light...

For instance, I am guessing that one of the problems you have regarding CTP2 is an AI that does not think either strategically or tactically regarding its military - doing idiotic attacks, not attacking when it should, and so forth. Yet in a civ3 thread, you make the same complaint about civ2 - and judging from other posts in that thread, you are not the only one.

You state that you have played the modded games, but in an earlier post you state that you only have played the Apolyton Pack. I will be totally honest here in saying that other than a few games in TOT, I have not played civ2. I have however played SMAC, which uses the same basic platform as civ2, so I do speak with some insight. And I lurk in a lot of the threads and read what other players are saying regarding the ease in which they can now beat civ2.

I play CTP because of preference issues.

Do you generally find that as a player, you can also consistantly beat the AI on Deity in an unmodded civ2 game - if not, then your best bet is to wait for civ3. On the flipside though, I have heard from experienced civ2 players who struggle to defeat the AI in CTP2 Modded.

And if you are able to beat civ2, then your hopes for civ3 will all be pinned on whether the AI is truly been revolutionized. All the new features will not mean much if you can walk over the AI.

The issue with the AI is really the critical one too. There is very much a blind spot in the hearts of civ players regarding civ3. Part of the problem is that civ2 was a revolutionary game. It does have a large and loyal fan base - and deservedly so. But many of the player have mastered the game through sheer repetition of play and through info available here on the forums - so they will need a challenge.

The second problem is 'The List'. 500 pages of fan-based suggestions sent to Firaxis is very good (and needed), but what it may do is create a second blind spot for players. They have invested a lot of effort into those suggestions, and will be tied to the game because of the fact that they see some of those suggestions implemented. So they will continue to play the game, consistently beat it, but thoroughly enjoy the game because they will feel they had a part in the development of it. Yes, its ironic because we here in the CTP2 Mod community feel the same way about our creations.

I've said it enough times too - Activision shot themselves in the foot with a premature release of CTP2. But I am happy with the ease to modify the game, and their blunders do not deter from my enjoyment of the game (at least not anymore).

[splangy]

Originally posted by hexagonian
Splangy

Funny, I do not sense any hostility here - I merely point out the inconsistancies in your arguments. Maybe it is you who are feeling hostile when those issues are brought to light...

For instance, I am guessing that one of the problems you have regarding CTP2 is an AI that does not think either strategically or tactically regarding its military - doing idiotic attacks, not attacking when it should, and so forth. Yet in a civ3 thread, you make the same complaint about civ2 - and judging from other posts in that thread, you are not the only one.

You state that you have played the modded games, but in an earlier post you state that you only have played the Apolyton Pack. I will be totally honest here in saying that other than a few games in TOT, I have not played civ2. I have however played SMAC, which uses the same basic platform as civ2, so I do speak with some insight. And I lurk in a lot of the threads and read what other players are saying regarding the ease in which they can now beat civ2.

I play CTP because of preference issues.

Do you generally find that as a player, you can also consistantly beat the AI on Deity in an unmodded civ2 game - if not, then your best bet is to wait for civ3. On the flipside though, I have heard from experienced civ2 players who struggle to defeat the AI in CTP2 Modded.

And if you are able to beat civ2, then your hopes for civ3 will all be pinned on whether the AI is truly been revolutionized. All the new features will not mean much if you can walk over the AI.

The issue with the AI is really the critical one too. There is very much a blind spot in the hearts of civ players regarding civ3. Part of the problem is that civ2 was a revolutionary game. It does have a large and loyal fan base - and deservedly so. But many of the player have mastered the game through sheer repetition of play and through info available here on the forums - so they will need a challenge.

The second problem is 'The List'. 500 pages of fan-based suggestions sent to Firaxis is very good (and needed), but what it may do is create a second blind spot for players. They have invested a lot of effort into those suggestions, and will be tied to the game because of the fact that they see some of those suggestions implemented. So they will continue to play the game, consistently beat it, but thoroughly enjoy the game because they will feel they had a part in the development of it. Yes, its ironic because we here in the CTP2 Mod community feel the same way about our creations.

I've said it enough times too - Activision shot themselves in the foot with a premature release of CTP2. But I am happy with the ease to modify the game, and their blunders do not deter from my enjoyment of the game (at least not anymore).

before i answer i just wanna say cradle was a really good mod, probably the best i tried.

the hostility i sensed was not becouse im afraid im wrong, i just thought some people were starting to get anrgy.

NO game has an AI that is great, what i posted there is true x3 for ctp, your mod was good, but it was to easy to beat the AI in all ctp mods, the game was a peice of crap, and no matter how good you are you cant make roses from crap.

like i said, i played your mod and apoliton, i would have done med mod, but it was a ***** to install.

actually i do struggle to beat the civ2 AI above king, but i have won many a game against a imposible ( ) ctp AI. its not becouse its bad, just becouse i can use tactics that you cant teach an AI.

civ3 with resources culture etc will require entirly new strats, ics and occ wont work any more.

again, the AI should be improved, and most probably will, infact they have said that they will already, howwever the game cant be mastered using the same old tequniques (sp?), your gona need new strats.

umm the 500 page list contained so many ideas that if they hadn't implemented any it wouldn't have changed from civ 2.

all in all activision dosen't honestly care what you think, they got some money, they dont have to support you anymore, they just create a diffent game witch will have nothing to do with ctp, you all will mod the game to the point were NONE of it original files exist. you basically bought a thirty $$$ jumble of programming.

but your content doing that, im content playing civ, MODDED(fascist mod), but i always know i can go back to good ole unmoded civ2 and have fun.

go to civ3 forum for more reasons, i think ill post this in civ2's forum and see how they react.

[Xerxes2]

... can't make roses from crap, eh? You must not be a gardener. A little horses**t on the roses does wonders.

I JUST got CTP2 working on my machine. I bought it when it came out and spent about $1300 US to get it working, with no success. I finally did an upgrade of my video board and voila! it works. And I'm having fun with it now. I did use the mods I've found for which anyone who worked on one of them and reads this, Thanks for all your time and effort.

I am one of those who are waiting with bated breath for the RELEASE. When it comes I'll be right down standing in line with the rest of you. Having said that, I note that the ONLY game which has stood the real test of time is SMAC/SMAX. I've played them since they came out and still waste entirely too much time playing SMAX.

I note that those games which were not successful did teach things to the programmers who created them. The level of gameplay has steadily advanced. Those who rail at the AI lack should try to create an AI which does the job. It isn't as easy as it looks. And if we in the programmer community could really create something so much better it would be in there, you bet.

Remember that all game development is a trade-off between better code and the money which that code must generate. I do NOT rail at the game developers. It's their bread and butter we're talking about. I think if they COULD do so much better they WOULD.

[Sarxis]

Hmm...

Real cheese (CIV III)? or processed cheese (ctp2)?
What a tough- and sarcastic- choice.


To quote a favorite American commercial:

"wimpy, wimpy, wimpy... (ctp2)
HEAFTY! HEAFTY! HEAFTY! (CIV III)
wimpy... (ctp2)

HEAFTY!! (CIV III)

wimpy... (ctp2)

HEAFTY!! (CIV III)"

[MarkG]

thank you for improving this discussion with your arguments Anunikoba....

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by Anunikoba
Hmm...

Real cheese (CIV III)? or processed cheese (ctp2)?
What a tough- and sarcastic- choice.

and to follow the anology to its conclusion. Is there greater satisfaction in eating the cheese, or making and eating the cheese?