Caravans are too powerfull

[Ken Hinds]

Mercantile,

The reasoning behind the 50 sheild caravan if you use it to Build a Wonder, not disband it, is that Caravans were quite large affairs. Drivers, loaders, guards, merchants, etc., and when you use them to build a wonder all those people become labors working on the wonder. If you move the caravan into the city with the wonder and disband it then you only get a portion of that cost back, just like any other unit. The camels and drivers, etc., are still hanging around using up resources waiting for the next caravan to be formed. When you build a wonder all those items are put to immediate use and you have a lot of camel steaks to feed them with.

Ken

[Mercantile]

I am back with another flavour for my arguement. I think the price of 50 shields is way too low for caravans. In single player, one often has hordes of caravans in the making and/or sitting around collecting dust. Therefore IMO that caravans should be double the price, so 100 shields. That would make them more realistic, what do the lemmings here think of this point?

*dons protective gear ahead of time*

[Rufus T. Firefly]

quote: Originally posted by Mercantile on 12-19-2000 08:44 PM I am back with another flavour for my arguement. I think the price of 50 shields is way too low for caravans. In single player, one often has hordes of caravans in the making and/or sitting around collecting dust. Therefore IMO that caravans should be double the price, so 100 shields. That would make them more realistic, what do the lemmings here think of this point?

Okay, I'm a newbie with a lousey trading strategy, but here's what I think: The real problem, which has eluded everyone but me because I'm so la-di-da brilliant , is that the caravan only changes once, into freight. Think about it: historical progress in the game gives you all manner of infantry units; it turns horseys into knights into dragoons into cav; but the caravan just keeps going and going and going. Why not have a little more variety in the trade? There could be several trade units, each replacing the other, costing more than the one before, and having slightly different qualities. After all, 50 shields is actually quite a lot at the beginning of the game...more than any other units, more even than basic city improvements like barracks and temples. But there's no reason it couldn't change into a different unit that costs more upon the discovery of, say, navigation or banking, and again on the discovery of economics, then finally again on the discovery of the corporation.

There...problem solved.

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[drake]

Merc, I think you ought to start a game with the double production cost of caravans, just to see how it plays out. We talked about this a bit ago and I think you should try it.

Or perhaps a game without them? That would most certainly be a new ball game wouldn't it?

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Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
You fritter and waste the hours in an off hand way
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way

[Mercantile]

drake , i have played games without caravans and admittedly it makes wonder building alot more difficult, but all you do then is conquer even more wonders when you take the ais cities. However, maybe i should organize a game without caravans just to see how it pans out, good idea drake

Rufus, i think that is a great idea, but engineers like caravans, seem to only upgrade once, and i wonder what type of icon you could make muchless what you would call it

[suas333]

As for trade routes, i don't think that caravans are too powerful. In some games i never get the energy to make a trade route with another civ, let alone another civ on a different continent. But your statement on science bonus interests me. I can't believe i never knew about his. Are you saying that it adds the number of science beakers of the initial gold bonus?

As for helping to build wonders. I love it, because it hepls my style of play. I think caravans are a crutch to the expansionist civ, against the perfectionist civ. Expansionist civs will have more settlers coming out of the best cities, less population in all cities, but of course more cities. Often cities will venture farther from capital. More cities mean main cities will have less production. In order to build wonders caravans are crucial. With so many less populated cities, mass building of caravans, in say 10 or so cities is possible, to feed into a less productive capital, and allowing the expansionist civ to beat a good prooductive city of a perfectionist civ to a major wonder. The perfect timing for these caravans, is when an expansionist civ is racing for Mike's Chapel in a 1x1x diety game.

[Scouse Gits]

Yes, there is a science bonus each time you deliver a caravan.

With a massive overseas trading strategy you can manage a tech a turn - even in Fundy!

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SG (2)

[Rufus T. Firefly]

quote: Originally posted by Mercantile on 12-20-2000 01:12 PM Rufus, i think that is a great idea, but engineers like caravans, seem to only upgrade once, and i wonder what type of icon you could make muchless what you would call it

Yeah, I felt suitably embarrassed about not being able to think of units/icons, too.

But now I have a new brilliant idea: "science-friendly" caravans and "caravan-ready" cities. Check it out:

"science-friendly" caravans: only caravans produced in cities that had libraries would be able to generate a science bonus; for freight, there would need to be a university. The game analogy would be to barracks/port facilities/airports producing vet units. The logic would be that, while caravans did in reality produce a kind of "science bonus" by bringing back knowledge from other lands, the folks back home had to want to and to be able to use knowledge.

"caravan-ready" cities: only cities with banks in them would be able to use caravans to build wonders; freight would require stock exchanges. The game analogy would be to those many city improvements (marketplaces, banks, factories, etc.) that increase some aspect of city production/trade by a fixed percentage; so now, a bank would increase the number of shields gained when a caravan was disbanded by 100% when a wonder was being built. The logic would be...well...there's not a lot of logic to caravans helping build wonders to begin with, but I suppose you could say that a big project stimulates the local economy, so trade coming in is more useful under those conditions provided there's an appropriate financial infrastucture to take advantage of it.

Whaddaya think?


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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[Adam Smith]

Here's a simpler way to get the same effert:
Decrease the basic caravan bonus to unimporved cities, but have markets etc. increase the money bonus by 50 percent each, and libraries, etc increase the science bonus by 50 percent each.

PS: I dont think caravans are too powerful if you consider the effect of long-distance trade route in history. Eg., Spanish galleons, China silk trade, etc. The Spanish kept their luxury-heavy economy afloat for hundreds of years solely on the basis of trade routes to the New World.


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Old posters never die.
They justfadeaway

[Maelhavok]

Hello Civ2 fans,

Well Merc, I disagree. Caravans are not to powerful. Compare 2 caravans to 3 musketeers when you're the only one with musketeers. My musketeers will take a city, give me a tech advance, take away same city from ememy-decreasing his stuff and increasing mine, I fight on his ground. I expand through conquest and keep conquered trade routes. I realize that this is a difference in gaming styles, but maybe my point is clear- A pacifist style play(er) will ALWAYS lose to a conquerer.

Maelhavok

P.S. I have only been to AC once a long, long time ago.
P.P.S. It doesn't matter if you lead in tech/wonders/gold if you can't defend yourself.

[drake]

quote: The perfect timing for these caravans, is when an expansionist civ is racing for Mike's Chapel in a 1x1x diety game.

hmmm.....this sounds very familiar suas.....

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Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
You fritter and waste the hours in an off hand way
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way

[lord of the mark]

is it that caravans are too powerful or that wonders are too powerful?

Most of the "you got enough caravans, build some more" posts are in the context of stockpiling caravans for fast wonder building. This is a worthwhile strategy only because the wonders are so valuable.

Ever play the Sci fi game in Civ:TOT? The wonders expire faster and are therefore less valuable. Its less worthwhile to build lots of caravans (or whatever the equivalent units are)

[Phssthpok]

As a matter of interest, how big a bonus can you get from a trade route?
I just got 992 gold for a single freight! Anyone know just how large the bonus can be?

[Blaupanzer]

Formula is here, more or less:
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HT...tml?date=12:18

This is from a subthread of the GL, the top thread (always, due to Ming's benevolence) of this Civ2-Strategy forum.

[War4ever]

Too powerfull? this is how the game was meant to be. Nothing better to a warmonger than a caravan a turn turning tech time into one turn.......... caravans are powerfull but take many resources to build and in order to receive large bonuses which allow you to rushbuild more caravans....... its a cycle boys..... you need to travel the ends of the earth delivering them. This is hazardous to your health. Losing your first caravan from your science city is like losing that first settler in the opening millenium..... just darn annoying.

*hucks bubble tea @Mercantile*

[Dino the Dinosore]

2790 is my record for a trade bonus (demanded Uranium of course) but I think others have done even better.

[Bereta_Eder]

Maelhavok, how can you say that a perfectionist will always lose against a conqueror?

I assume you are refering to multiplayer games because in single player not the greeks, the mongols, the japonese or whoever else that is aggresive has been able even to make my perfectionist civ blink.

Consider that when you are building more and more combat units you are at the same time lacking far behind in technology. You of course have to have a governement that fits your warlike instincts.

All that a perfectionist civ (rep or demo) has to do is keep you at bay and contain you - which is extremely easy given the right terrain (and you can make alterations to the defence value of the terrain at the very beggining) - while it gains advances and is able to build more and more technologically advanced units. Before you know you are hit by modern warfare and the game will end for you very soon.

Even if you manage to capture some cities and gain some tech. advances you still can't compete with a civ that gains a new advance every 3 turns.

Plus in a perfectionist civ it is extremely difficult to capture ANY city because it is hugeley and very easily protected because cities are not that many and resources are plenty and very well utilised.

Even if you coherse other civs in giving you techs you will eventually be left behind because of the alliances that other make or because of your rep which will eventually suffer if you like to keep expanding aggresively.

Of course the only multiplayer game I have ever played only lasted 2 hours - everybody left because of extreme bordome - so maybe in MP games things are somewhat different. But still the principles of rapid tech. advances and extremely well defended perfectionist cities apply.

On the camel issue, I have to say that it is a real dangerous mission. You have to built it, and built nothing else during that, you have to board a ship travel the damn half world to deliver it you have to protect it through miles and miles of very often unfriendly teritorry and still you are not sure whether it will all end in disaster.
If you just move it to the next closest enemy city the bonuses are very few.

[Bereta_Eder]

Merchantile, I only have an orange but I want to eat it

sorry

[Thoth]

quote: Originally posted by Dino the Dinosore on 12-28-2000 08:21 PM 2790 is my record for a trade bonus (demanded Uranium of course) but I think others have done even better.

My personal record was 3200 (New York to Alexandria
in the WWII scenario included with CivII).

The easiest way to temper the effect of freight trade bonuses is to not allow Superhighways. I haven't done a detailed study, but based on a *lot* of CivII games, they appear to increase the bonus by 50%. This is cumulative if both cities have superhighways. Cut the Superhighways and freight becomes valuable, but not overpowering.

The wonder value of freight is quite low. You almost always get more than a 200 gold/science bonus for a foriegn trade route (if you have superhighways) even if the commodity isn't in demand. As a Democracy you can generally exceed 200 gold with domestic trade routes (especially between cities on two different continents).

Caravans and freight are worth 200 gold (and no science ) when added directly to a Wonder. (50 shields x 4 gold per shield for a Wonder).

Given their alternative use (cash and tech) I don't think it's unreasonable to allow the full shield value of caravans/freight to be added to a wonder.

I further change I'd propose is to delay freight until Automobile. This prevents Leonardo from upgrading caravans to freight, as well as being common sense (given the diesel sound effects )

[A-Team]

To get out of the Dark ages when a game goes techless, caravans do it very nicely. Ever heard of inflation? The more gold you take in (remember that most citys will only alow 3 non food caravans) the more construction you can do and the faster you can advance. Also, a premium on preventing caravns from other civs getting to your citys is a must. Sometimes the best cargo of ships is caravans because even if you take enemy citys, they will probably just be taken back any ways if in main city mass. Find an unprotected enemy city that you can take? Send in the caravans first, get paid huge, then take the city so that the extra trade generated by trade routes is yours.
Dont critize it, use it, get all your opponenets to us e it so the game is competitive.
By the way, wonders are the real enemy to a good game as they are way to powerfull and can only be built by one civ and all civs might not have the chance to build them.

[Laertes]

My justification of the caravan's power is historical too. Very little in Civ2 properly reflects the dominance of corporations and their profits in the success of modern civilisatons.

The British empire was built on trade. The US' power is built on the capability of its businesses, manufacturing and otherwise.

Apart from the camel/freight, Civ2 only has the factory and the Stock Exchange. The Caravan rightly reflects the importance of economic power as well as, as was pointed out earlier, the importance of trade in spreading knowledge before the modern era.

(Ponders whether to throw or eat banana. Eats it)
[This message has been edited by Fergus Horkan (edited January 02, 2001).]

[Blaupanzer]

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 on 12-28-2000 10:38 PM Merchantile, I only have an orange but I want to eat it sorry

I know a joke loses its power with explanation, but what does this mean, paiktis?

[The Mad Viking]

Actually, using caravans is a cheat.

The science bonus is not documented in the manuals.

[Bereta_Eder]

Blaupanzer, I refer you to the last sentence of the very first message by Merchantile in this thread!

He duck one too many times already and anyway I was really hungry (grin)

[Blaupanzer]

Paiktis, Cool!:-)