Critique my upper-level SP strategy

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I started playing Civ2 on ToT about 6 months ago, and have been trying to play at higher and higher levels. Winning at King is now fairly easy, and I can win at Emperor, too. But I don't like how I win at Emperor, and that's where I need advice. My problem is the outrageous aggressiveness of the AI (notorious, apparently, in ToT). This manifests itself in two ways that have an impact on my game: I have to play expecting constant warfare, and I have to expect that the AI will generally refuse to swap techs with me while the AI civs aggressively swap with each other. This latter tendency leaves me well behind technologically by mid-game, even if I build an SSC (and I always do). To cope with this, I've developed the following strategy; it works, but I don't like it. I offer it to you for comments and criticisms:

Firefly's Lame-o Emperor Game-o (just the high (?) points - note that new territory and trade routes are being developed at all points here)
1. Get bronze working; build Colossus
2. Meanwhile, get Monarchy and switch.
So far, so good; but now comes problem #1
3. Get the Great Library. I have never needed the GL before, but it seems the only way to keep up with those tech-swapping AIs; without it, their military gets way ahead of mine, and I'm toast by the Middle Ages.
4. Try for Hanging Gardens, generally failing because of the need to build the GL; switch to Marco Polo when someone beats me to it.
5. With GL keeping me up in techs, the mid-game looks more familiar: build an SSC, get and build Mike's Chapel and Leo's Workshop at all costs, and Adam Smith's and Bach's if possible.
But now comes the real disappointment…
6. Get democracy, build SoL, and go fundy. This is the thing: I hate fundy. It's way too powerful, and presents no real challenge in SP; I get boatloads of money, tons of unsupported toops, and get to go on a rampage. It's fun the first couple of times, but it just seems too easy. Plus, I really, really hate fundamentalist governments in real life. But by this point in the game I'm generally being attacked by all the other AIs, and this seems like the only way to beat them off. Trade and expansion get harder at this phase, too, because the AI loves killing settlers and camels, but I do my best.
7. Stay fundy, expanding through conquest like crazy, until electricity cancels the GL and I need to get aggressive about science again. Then switch to commie if there's still some conquering to do in order to secure my borders, and to democracy if not.
8. Build the UN as a means of enforcing peace.
9. Proceed through normal end-game (Hoover, CfC, SETI, AC landing)

As I said, it works, but I hate spending any time at all as anything other than a democracy once that government is available, and I'd rather build something other than the GL. What do you do?


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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[Scouse Gits]

Perhaps you are confused about the goal for any particular game? At some stage you must decide whether you are going to conquer or land a spaceship. It seems to me you are doing a bit of both!

Next game - don't build the GL - try the HG. Head for Democracy and SoL without useless techs slowing down your research. With SoL complete you can decide your game objective and pick the most helpful form of government to assist in your aim.

If you are going to conquer, try Communism first to obatin some useful military tech (Tactics/Steam Engine/Espionage) and then set research for Fundy. Once you have real Fundamentalism (change to Fundy government)you can swamp the AI with fanatics, whilst the vet spies from the Commie days can steal any outstanding science you require!

Others will advise you on a peaceful approach. If I need to build a spaceship I look in the Yellow Pages.

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SG (2)

[Edward]

(Warning: I don't have ToT. In fact (try and remain seated for this) I currently only have Civ on a Playstation, not a real computer. Therefore take all my comments with a grain of salt.)


I totally agree with Scouse Gits. You need to choose spaceship or conquest in the very beginning.

It looks like you have no problem winning conquest on Emperor as a fundamentalism (or at least conquering and beating everyone into submission until they're no longer a production or military threat then building a spaceship at your leisure - which is basically winning by conquest). However you don't like being a fundamentalist government since it's too easy and too distasteful.

Scouse Gits has some good commentary on a military route. However, it seems you'd like to be a peace loving spaceship builder if only the sword-rattling AI would let you.

There are two issues that need addressing: 1) faster research and 2) obnoxious AI.

1) Relying on the Great Library for technology will keep you on par with the AI for research. That could be ok if you're minimizing your research to instead build units and clobber the enemy, but in your case it seems that you want to be AHEAD of the AI in research. Here the Great Library will actually IMPEDE your research by giving you techs you don't need which (due to the game's programming) will require you to get more beakers to get the tech you do need since the number of beakers required for a new tech is based on the number you already know. As Scouse Gits suggested, you need to streamline your research path.

I'm sure you can get lots of suggestions on a good path to take. Basically you need to bypass techs unless they give you a tech wonder, a needed happiness wonder, or a needed defensive unit (no you don't NEED pikemen). This was really hard for me to learn while moving up in game levels. I had to learn to avoid techs that were very useful but not VITAL to my quest for Space Flight. Want to build a bridge across that river? Too bad. Wait until it's Darwin time before getting Bridge Building. Getting it earlier will delay Shakespeare, Democracy, Issac Newton, and other important items. Oh, and don't trade for stuff that's not absolutely necessary either ('though from your post, this isn't a problem in ToT).

Try Monarchy, Bronze Working (Colossus and Phalanxes), Philosophy, Astronomy (Copernicus), and Monotheism (Michaelangelo). Then you're ready for Republic/Democracy and lots of trading.

Researching towards or building unnecessary wonders is also drain on your research power. You'll need to avoid wonders that you used to build every game.

Don't build Marco Polo since the AI doesn't want to trade with you anyway.

Try a game without Hanging Gardens. Build settlers in unhappy cities and make a bee-line for Michaelangelo.

The AI (at least in my version) isn't too desirous of J.S. Bach's, so you can delay Theology until your Civ has grown beyond temple, courthouse, and Michaelangelo's pacifying abilities.

It looks like you already know the power of trade routes (another huge lesson I had to learn while going up in game levels). As Apolytoners say - after you've build enough caravans, build some more.

2) Expand and settle everywhere you can without fighting. (You don't need to colonize every deserted island. A contiguous kingdom a single land mass will be easier to defend.) Then hunker down. Build city walls on your border cities, and some fortresses on hills/mountains on your borders. It's much easier to defend fortified places than to take an AI city. If you find yourself moving military units into enemy land then you are engaging in an unnecessary offensive that's draining resources from your research. An offensive war on your part is devistating to your research momentum.

If ToT AIs are that vicious, you may have to resort to trading with your own cities.


In short - no unnecessary techs and no offensive strikes.

[East Street Trader]

I only switched to Fundy to polish off the AI once for exactly your reason. The challenge disappeared and the game got dull.

Agree with SG. You are backing both sides against the middle. Read Paul's OCC guide. You will be impressed with the intensity of the focus. No side paths are pursued. Every step is one full stride down the fastest route to the desired end. That is what I now seek in a game. If I can look back and say to myself that the method adopted to get to the chosen objective was lean and mean I'm happy.

In peaceful strategies good defence will help. Use the terrain. If you perch a defensive unit (stacked with some other unit to prevent bribery) on a mountain, hill, or rivered forest on the AIs territory it will soon be surrounded by piles of AI dead. If you can get a settler unit to the spot, make a fortress and add a second unit, offensive or defensive better still. What you are doing is to sap the productive advantage of the AI without exposing your cities and without having to devote too much of your own production to the generation of units.

Getting the chance to do this depends, in part, on good exploration. I am never happy until every last square on the map is revealed and, from the outset, I watch out for choke points and for the chance to occupy good defensive spots which will sap the warlike civs.

Later on (subject to democratic constraints) be ready to ship in units to do this job on mountains close to AI cities on foreign continents.

If you are not staying ahead of the AI in research (even with their exchange techs like crazy advantage) you are neglecting trade. Get some local trade routes in early. It is very nice to pick up a large bonus in money and beakers when a long foreign route goes in. But a local route between two of your own cities is quicker and safer to establish and starts underpinning your research with a turn by turn accrual of arrows which continues paying off throughout the game. Don't worry if the route produces no arrow when first established. These are cities which will grow and the arrows will start to come. And when you've got the early ones in - get some more in in the early middle game too. And when that's done - well get some more in for the cities you establish or take later on. And while this is going on take opportunities to upgrade the early routes too. If I'm playing peacefully I'm not happy unless every one of my cities (whether I've got 20 or 120 or 220) have three routes each.

A small but satisfying point is this. You will want such of your cities as produce goods it demands to trade with your SCC but commodities (especially high paying ones like silk or wine) from the SCC really deserve to go off to a distant foreign city because the one time bonus on those is so very worth having. So approach trade from that city in this way. First built one or two caravans there, starting with the highest paying commodity. Plan where they are going to be delivered. Ideally you want a foreign city on a different landmass which is a decent size (maybe Aztec or the like), demands the commodity and has access to river squares. You won't want to be too tardy but a little delay to find the right place to go is not a disaster. But meanwhile, before those caravans are delivered (and hence before your SCC's trading needs begin to be fulfilled), establish routes from your lesser cities to the SCC. Only then deliver the SCC's own caravans providing them with such protection along the way as you can. This maximises the bonuses from delivering demanded commodities from and to the SCC.

I have read of re-homing caravans but the manual says this can't be done so I have always treated that as a programming glitch and don't do it.

If you are devoting a sufficient attention to trade you will always stay well ahead of the AI in research and won't need GT. There is an argument for building it to deny it to the AI but I don't bother. You get far enough ahead that it doesn't really matter that the Library, for a time, slows down the rate at which you are forging ahead.

Try to keep the AI diplomats and spies at bay with well placed fortresses on defensive terrain two or three squares away from your cities on or beside its roads.

There are many more things to say but, as will already be apparent, questions of priority arise from all the competing aspects - units needed to block and sap, caravans needed to establish routes, different techs needed for different purposes. Looking at your post I think SG has really made the right point about priorities. Your balance is off because you are going for too many wonders which don't complement each other quite enough (plus the trade point if I am right that you don't give it enough priority).

So ditch an unneeded wonder or three, put in some more routes and I reckon that before you know it you'll be arriving for dinner in Valhalla on Alpha Centauri with plenty of time for a cocktail.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Wow! Thanks for the responses, guys! I love this place!

I think you're right: my strategy is unfocused. It hasn't been in the past. I've learned a lot of stuff since hanging out here, and one of the things I've learned is the importance of unimpeded progress through the tech tree. This is why it pains be to build the Great Library, and it occurs to me that maybe it would have been more useful if I explained how I lose rather than how I win. Remember, the strategy I was describing is actually a winning strategy...just not one I like.

The problem with focusing just on an AC landing is that, when I do, one of two things seems to happen: a mid-game loss or a late-game loss. They happen thus:

Mid-game loss - Off I go, making my way through the tech tree. I've got bronze working and built the Colossus; I've got Monarchy and switched governments; I've got Astronomy and built the Observatory; and I'm working on Polytheism on the road to Mike's. That must mean it's time to meet the AI civ that used it's first techs to instead get Feudalism, build Sun-Tzu's, and research chivalry! Those are vet knights sitting next to my not-so-super-science city, and the best unit I have is a phalanx. Show's over, folks.

Late-game loss - Woo-hoo! I've blown through the tech tree, thanks to an awesome SSC, a strong democracy, well-founded cities, and a little bit of luck. I've managed to build the Apollo Program before the next-most-advanced civ has even discovered flight. It must be time for that big, rich fundy government I've been appeasing all game to send tons of spies swarming all over my empire, stealing every spaceship related tech, and embark on their own space program. The race is on, and with less money and fewer cities in which to build components, I'm a pretty sure loser (unless, of course, I can build up a military and sack the enemy capital in just few turns - and the capital doesn't get moved on me).

Repeated occurrances of one of these two scenarios has led me to develop the lame-o strategy, in which I spend mid-game weakening the strongest AI civs so that they pose no threat later in the space race. Like I said, it works; I just hate it. And while I see the logic and virtues of the strategies you all suggest, I guess I don't see why they don't fail the way they do when I try them. How do you keep the AI at bay?

Thanks again for all the input; I'd certainly welcome more!

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder
[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly (edited December 18, 2000).]

[Scouse Gits]

Rufus - next game try playing for a win by conquest. See life through the other end of the telescope! Build the wonders you never usually consider, like Sun Tzu or the Wall! Enjoy your vet Knights as they prowl around AI cities. I bet you win ... but understand why you win! This should help when you return to a more peaceful approach.

Whatever type of game you play use offensive defence! In the early game horseman are great defenders as they can come out and kill enemy elephants/catapults before they hurt your cities.

I try to pick a high production city and build a barracks there ... this place produces vet units (on four legs) for the rest of the empire.

Consider building MPE. You can find out which advances the AI is researching, and by exchanging maps your diplomats know where to sail!

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SG (2)

[East Street Trader]

Even in a game where Alpha Centauri is the aim and peaceful expansion/development via democratic gov.t is the main game you can't tolerate over-powerful neighbours. In both your mid game and late game loss scenarios you seem to have done so.

You can do a great deal to stifle, frustrate and sap your AI neighbours without resorting to all out war.

Find him early, build your cities out towards him (to deny him lebensraum), provoke war and drain his production. If you don't expect to conquer him early then build a Maginot Line to keep him away from your heartlands.

And look for chances to undermine more remote AI civs too.

Your lead in research opens several windows of opportunity during the game where the peaceful expand/developer can indulge in a short period of conquest without needing to distract himself with building more than half a dozen (or less) offensive units in order to do so. The arrival of musketeers may be one, ironclads another and riflemen a third. Also, of course, the howie. Bribery is a useful tool at all times. AI civs without Bronze working are fair game in the opening phase.

You want to stay in democracy throughout so, if you want a small navy and army with which to harrass the AI, you need to develop ways to avoid unhappiness problems. "None units" are one answer (early huts or bribing remote barbarians) but building Shakespeare's Theatre is probably the most secure and easiest. I always put it in a coastal town (ideally with lots of grassland and ocean - it's going to get shields from an offshore platform). Now home your army/navy/merchant marine in this city.

Keeping spies at bay late on is one of the harder skills. My methods depend on fortresses, vigilance and constant reconaisance. The advent of the fighter helps. Luckily (or unluckily depending on how you view it) the AI doesn't seem to be programmed to mask the movement of its spies. Nevertheless offensive defence is assuredly the name of the game at this stage.

The AI production advantage is at it's most telling in the space race. If you've been able to do little or nothing to cramp the style of one or two distant AI civs you are going to require, on a large map, at least half a dozen fully developed cities producing 80 shields and another dozen (prefereably more) producing 40 shields a turn. A dozen producing 40 shields a turn may be enough on a small map. Now it is that the question whether you have expanded and developed effectively enough to justify your strategy will be answered.

Do you know about using freights to build space ship parts? You can switch from building a wonder to building a spaceship part with no penalty. So you may sometimes wish to store some freights, use them to part build a wonder, then switch. But this is just an aid. IME nothing substitutes for that big industrial complex that you've spent the game developing.

Good space ship building is a feature. The AI often builds rather lumbering craft which can be overtaken en route. So study up on the fastest craft.

[Tesla Picasso]

I agree with Scouse wholeheartedly. For me, playing an offensive defense is crucial to going for the spaceship. If warriors from a neighbor who is at peace start to wander across my turf I usually insist that they be withdrawn; this of course leads to the declaration of war; I then destroy the unit prior to it attacking my city. Maybe pick up a few cities and a wonder or two in the process. Not exactly peaceful, but if they want war, I'll give it to 'em!

It occurs to me too that sometimes if you are agressive in your defense you sometimes get to choose the battlefield, so to speak, and cause the AI to focus it's energy where you wish to rather than where it may choose. This can protect other cities/areas.

"It's a good thing that war is so terrible, otherwise we may grow too fond of it." --Robert E. Lee at Fredericksburg

"'Course if they did it all with pixels and nobody really got hurt, it would be a real hoot!" --Robert E. Lee mumbling to himself later that night as he drifted off to sleep.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Thanks again, everybody! All your advice is great here, but I have to admit it may be a small thing that helps me change my game: I never think of building Shakespeare's Theatre (except when I've tried OCC)! It's one of my bottom 5 Wonders (along with the Tower, Darwin, the Oracle, and of course the Manhattan Project). It had never occured to me to use one city to churn out my military (SG's suggestion) and build Shakespeare in it to counter the unhappiness problem under democracy (EST's). Brilliant!

I'm off to keep trying. Thanks again!

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder
[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly (edited December 19, 2000).]

[debeest]

One added tip about Shakespeare. Don't build your barracks there, because you won't actually build your units there; you'll be homing units there that were built elsewhere, in high-production cities with barracks. Counter to EST's advice, I'd make sure I built Shakespeare somewhere that will produce plenty of shields early on, so you can support all those units.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

quote: Originally posted by debeest on 12-20-2000 01:56 AM One added tip about Shakespeare. Don't build your barracks there, because you won't actually build your units there; you'll be homing units there that were built elsewhere, in high-production cities with barracks. Counter to EST's advice, I'd make sure I built Shakespeare somewhere that will produce plenty of shields early on, so you can support all those units.

Okay, now I'm confused again (that didn't last long, did it? ). If I'm building Shakespeare in a high-shield city anyway, and if my miltary units are going to have to at least pass through that city in order to be re-homed, why wouldn't I use it for unit production? After all, the presence of Shakespeare means it doesn't need a temple, a colosseum, a market/bank/exchange, etc. I'd want to build a factory and an offshore platform when they become available, but otherwise it seems like it would be ideal for cranking out units -- not exclusively, of course, but certainly primarily. What am I missing?

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[lord of the mark]

please clarify why i dont need pikemen.

is it that defensive advantage of pikemen is only against mounted units, and horsmen and chariots are not a threat to phalanxs, and by the time knights come around i should be upto musketeers, assuming i've managed my science correctly?

[Edward]

lord of the mark,

Perhaps I was a little too emphatic in my "(no you don't NEED pikemen)". I was trying to streamline a tech path for a peaceful science type civ. In doing so, I wanted Rufus T. Firefly to avoid any tech that wasn't absolutely necessary.

Against the AI, you can generally do well with just your phalanxes and maybe some counter-attacking units (elephants perhaps). I generally delay feudalism until I need J.S. Bach's Cathedral. That way I don't know an extra tech which would slow down my research of Astronomy (Copernicus), Monotheism (Michaelangelo), the Republic, etc.

I guess I was saying that there are very few instances (especially in the early game) where you need to research techs solely to get better defensive units.

I'm sure pikemen are very nice people and great to have around in certain circumstances.

also I wanted to make a remark on your midgame loss. I may not be the most qualified because I suffer similar problems as you. And this thread has been most helpful in that regard. But you mentioned fortified vet knights outside your ssc with only a phalanx to defend. A key here is to keep them out of your territory completely. Your ssc should be in the middle preferribly on a river. Some games I'm really vigilant at keeping the ai out of my territory. Some games I lack the necessary units to do so. I'm torn between exploring outside of my territory and preventing enemy units from entering. But it is of #1 importance to never let those vet knights get within 3 squares of any of your good cities. Because it is too hard to make up, even if you lose a good city for 3 turns. Because you have to rush build several knights/crusaders to take it back.

My main problem is I build too many things in my cities I think. I do not build enough caravans or military units (when in democracy). I tend to build as many improvements as possible in my good cities. Should I be doing this? I tend to build library, temple, marketplace, bank, granary, aquaduct, sewer system, harbor (if appl.), coloseum (if necessary), and factories, manf. plants in every single one of my cities. Is this a waste?

[This message has been edited by Dissident Aggressor (edited December 22, 2000).]

[Rufus T. Firefly]

D.A., I agree that an SSC would ideally be located at the center of the empire, but it's not always possible; since I start building the Colossus once I have 4 cities up and running, it's hard to tell how things are going to develop. In my latest game, for example, the SSC ended in being the SE corner of the empire, which was able to spread north and west easily but bumped up against the ocean and the Indians in other directions. Besides, I like to build an SSC on the ocean, for the arrows and the access to overseas routes; and it's much harder to stop those vet knights when they get to my territory via caravel, especially if I don't even have triremes yet.

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[lord of the mark]

sorry edward, i didnt mean to sound confrontational.

I have taken a break from civ while dealing with certain computer problems (dont ask!!) and am looking forward to returning and jumping from king level to empire level. I really want a strat that will work at empire level - i tend to be peaceful (but not rigidly so) and moderately expansionist.

So i really liked your advice about having a more focused tech plan - I think it could really help me.
BUT - i reviewed the poster and was flustered - getting to demo in particular (not to mention gunpowder)requires invention, which requires a whole bunch of otherwise unnecessary techs, including feudalism.

So i take it you suggest a quick rush to republic, not demo. bronze working for the phalanxes, and to head on toward currency and for colussus - head straight for monarchy.
follow the mysticism - poly - phil path to monotheism.
(using phil for the free tech along the way. Get literacy, (for Republic) but not to build GL. Build Oracle if surplus production - since its the only happiness wonder on path to monotheism (i wont get HG if im this disciplined) Also oracle will last longer without aiming for theology. BUt better copernicus.

Hopefully get fairly quickly to republic, with SSC with Colussus and Copernicus, phalanxes for defense, and oracle and mikes for happiness. Or skip oracle and keep cities small until mikes.

Will try this on map designed for early peace (large, or with few civs - or isolated position on real world map)

I'll bump this thread as well. But I may just have to be non-lazy and break out my poster . I've been playing from memory for a while now, and I think my memory is getting worse . Because it seems to be taking longer and longer to get to democracy for me. I need to develop more focused tech strategies as well. Mine is way to broad based.

[Maelhavok]

Hello Civ2 fans,

While I do not have TOT, I do play 2.42\raging\7\diety and I ALWAYS win with a very similar stragedy. I enjoy the strategic deployment of my men(the plan) and the tactical aquisition of my goals(the execution of the plan).
Rufus, when in fundy build dips as well as strikeforce. Take enemies palace, buy cities. When you have Leo this is incredibly effective. Buy a city, get a tech, upgrade all units in city, take another city. It is very rare for the AI to get to steam engine before I've conqered the world.
I agree with Tesla Picasso (Great handle) about choosing your ground. Experiment with the tactics available with the lay of the land. (e.g. choke points ((land and sea)), canal cities, enemies undefended terrain etc. Also, with choosing your ground comes choosing your time. Fight WHEN you want to, when you're ready. If you are going to conquer, but not ready and vet knights are at your door, give tech\tribute and sue for peace and bump that civ to #1 on the conquest list.
I also agree that fundy through SOL is powerful but not too powerful. With GL and Leo it is TOO powerful. Unstoppable. Great fun.
Merry Holidays,

Maelhavok

[Edward]

lord of mark,

I'm still working on a good tech path for a peaceful civ with it's eye on space travel. My biggest problem is early happiness. My greed for tech wonders can make me loose out on the early happiness wonders.

I wait to go republic/democracy until I've done all the expanding I want. Before I finish expanding, I can keep pretty good happiness by making more settlers in upset cities. ("Not happy in Veii? Why don't you start your own darn city!") Once you leave monarchy, the settlers are too hungry to effectively expand through making new cities.

You're right, I hit republic before democracy. You've got my progression pegged.

1) First and foremost Monarchy - switch governments.

2) Next Colossus (with phalanxes being a great side effect).

3) Now on to Philosophy for a free tech. The AI is pretty good at grabbing for Philosophy, so get it early. One could argue that getting Philosophy first costs me two unneeded (at least this early) techs - Writing and Literacy. I have to concede that this is a good point. Maybe I should surrender the "Golden Age of Enlightenment" to the AI? On the other hand you need Mysticism and Philosophy for Copernicus and Michaelangelo. Now I'm not sure of my stand on this.

4) Trade. Early expansion is so important that I don't make many, if any, trade routes until my civ is fully expanded. However, my whole civ comes to a grinding halt when I can build a new wonder. When I'm building a wonder, it's max taxes and have all the cities make caravans to build it quickly (and for this you need Trade).

5) Hanging Gardens. This wonder will make early expansion so much easier. All your workers are happy and productive. However the AI loves the Hanging Gardens. If you don't get it quick it's gone. It's really tough to get Colossus, Hanging Gardens, and Copernicus's Observatory because the AI likes all three (well maybe it's not so keen on Colossus but you can be sure they'll switch to it if you beat them to others. Bronze working is so well known.). I don't go for the Oracle because it requires temples to be effective. My cities generally have no improvements until much later in the game. Founding new cities is oh-so-important that I hate to switch from settlers even to help build a wonder much less a city improvement. Sometimes I skip the Hanging Gardens to really streamline the tech path. When I don't build Hanging Gardens then almost half my population is composed of despondent entertainers composing depressing alternative music and waiting to become settlers to shuffle off and found a new dismal dust bin of a city (at least until Michaelangelo).

I like J.S. Bach since it's kind of like a late Hanging Gardens that never expires. I admit that, unlike the Oracle, I have to trade for Feudalism and research Theology to get it (thus adding two additional techs to my tree, three if I get stuck with Warrior Code as well). You can delay J.S. Bach until it's really needed since the AI has little desire for it. As you noted, including both J.S. and Oracle in one's tech path seems madness (due to Theology reducing the Oracle's power to that of a daily horoscope).

6) Copernicus's Observatory (the AI will try to build this before Michaelangelo and I don't want to lose it)

7) Michaelangelo's Chapel (with elephants/crusaders as a nice side effect)

8) Shakespeare's Theater - so you can have a huge Super Science City without any happiness improvements or entertainers. The AI is keen on this one.

*) Once you have all your cities founded and have Michaelangelo's Chapel it's time for republic, mass starvation, a few temples, and on to greatly increased trade. I linger in Republic until I can get some temples built, pull in wandering military units and boats, and get happiness under control. Then we can take advantage of Democracy to "We love" up the population and dramatically increase trade/science.

Going Republic before Democracy isn't too much of a tech detour from Democracy. I go Republic so late that I can trade for it with an enlightened AI. You're right about Democracy requiring a lot of extraneous techs ('though Leonardo lovers have Invention at the heart of their tech path). If you don't mind losing Leonardo you might be able to trade for Democracy after the AI builds the Statue of Liberty (Statue of Fundamentalism?) You know when Invention/Leonardo/Democracy is on the way because the AI must build King Richard's Crusade as soon as it gets Engineering. Sadly you need to eventually research or trade for Physics and Invention since they're needed for Railroad.

It's almost like there are a three distinct early tech branches for the scientist (the tech tree looks totally different to the early conqueror). The Astronomy, Philosophy, Monotheism branch. The Bronze Working, Monarchy, Trade, Republic, Medicine branch. And the long string of junk to Invention, Democracy, Railroad. The problem is you have to research all three branches before the tech tree narrows at Railroad. I invariably hit a point where I've built all the nice wonders on the first two branches and have to spend some time racing up junk techs to catch up with the AI on the third branch. I bet you multiplayers have a clearer view on these early branches if you trade with human allies going down different branches.

Also, once all my cities are founded, all my cities produce caravans almost exclusively ('though there are always emergencies...)

9) Issac Newtons' College

10) Adam Smith's Trading Company

There's not as much decision making to do tech-wise after this point. In a single player game all the peaceful civs will run down the list of railroads, engineers, factories, freight, and Hoover Dam on their way to Space Flight.

[lord of the mark]

edward

I liked that so much i printed it out. I suspect it will lead to problems on deity, but it should help me on emperor.

thanks
Lord of the mark

[Rusty Nail]

Steal.Steal.Steal. That is best strategy against AI's that won't trade, including diety where I play. Forget GL. There are usually some who will trade. Use them. You won't avoid a war. Just make sure you have vet musketeers behind walls and you can hold off anything until you catch up.

[The Mad Viking]

There are two schools of thought on Colossus vs Hanging Garden. In Deity, it is hard to get both. I choose Colossus, and build temples sooner, also use settlers to slow city growth, and entertainers for a few turns if necessary.

I strongly suggest you go for trade right after monarchy. Trade is the key to good science and good gold. I build caravans like crazy. They also provide far more flexibility in wonder building. You can decide what city to put the wonder in later, and you can build walls or a unit in a threatened city at the last minute, if you don't start the wonder until you have a bunch of caravans built.

Isaac Newton asap.

Philosophy next, and Mike's Chapel.

You don't need Adam Smith unless you are going to AC. In a conquest game, you will get more benefit from using those shields for caravans / freights.

With electronics, espionage, and "ertillery", you're laughing. On a small map, conquest game, Hoover is a waste. Just build a hydro plant in 2 or 3 factory cities. Build cavalry, spies and ertillery, and you run the table in a few turns. Often as not, I don't bother with SoL, I go communism or fundy naturally. Trade, science gold, bribe cities.

Regarding losing middle or late game, you need to learn defence.

I rarely lose a unit, and will go a whole game without losing a city.

Recognize threats before its too late.

Use terrain and the AI's aggressiveness to your advantage. Few things give me as much pleasure as watching an AI hurl kamikaze units at a fortified veteran rifleman on a hill or mountain. It drains there production. It keeps them off your cities. Do the math.

Early in the game, I try to ally with one close neighbour. It makes life far easier. Its easy to tell when the alliance will be ending. Be prepared!

[Carolus Rex]

Hello everybody!

Here is a short description of a game I played some time ago. It may or may not contain some useful tips for an early landing.

Have to admit I haven't read the whole thread... Started at the top, but with so many long replies I decided to read Rufus' posts only (it is 4.30 AM over here so I hope I am forgiven for this nonchalant behaviour ).

Version 2.42, deity level (I also play king a lot nowdays, but I'm pretty sure this was deity level. Someone please tell me how I can check that afterwards?).

Played as the Spanish, had a total of 15 cities. This number was deliberately chosen to build the space ship structurals in one turn.

Capitol: Madrid, a size 28 city with only two fish as specials. The launching year (1710 AD) it generated (not too impressive) 1040 science beakers with science at 100%, two polluted squares and an AI catapult occupying one square.

The wonders (not necessarily in the order I built them): HG, Colossus, Lighthouse, Copernicus', Magellan's, Shake's, Leo's, Isaac's, Darwin's, Apollo (all in Madrid) and Mike's (in Seville).

14 temples, 2 libraries and 2 aqueducts (including the ones in Madrid). Hence 14 of 15 cities had temples, 2 had a library and an aqueduct in addition to the temple. All other standard improvements were built in Madrid only. The rest of the cities built nothing but settlers (in the beginning) and caravans/freights/ships. Almost all the caravans and freights were rehomed to Madrid.

From reading your first post, Rufus, it seems you start building a wonder when you discover the needed tech (BW and Colossus). Here is an alternative you may want to try:

i) Go for Trade as soon as you have researched the needed government techs. Pick BW as the non-gov tech that is almost always forced on you on your way to monarchy or republic (if you play humans go for Horseback Riding instead, unless you know you are on a small island). Then go for Currency and Trade. Meanwhile you build settlers and maybe some exploring unit(s).

ii) Once you have Trade, switch from almost completed settlers to caravans. How many and in which cities depend on how far away the cities are from your capitol and how many cities you have already. The capitol should be building a caravan and complete it the same turn that the 3 others arrive. Ideally (or against humans), you should time this with the discovery of the wonder tech, say Pottery which may be your choice after Trade.

iii) Move in all 4 caravans in your capitol to complete the wonder in one turn. Repeat ii) and iii) when building other wonders.

The advantages of this method are a) you can buy shields cheaper when building caravans rather than a wonder, b) you are more flexible if attacked by barbs or other civs and can change to military units without losing shields, c) a human civ with an embassy can't see which wonders you are building (later in the game anyway) and d) (important against humans) the wonder can only be sabotaged during one turn and there is only that turn you need to worry about someone else building it.

This is a very effective method. As you can see I built three contemporary wonders in my capitol (HG, Colossus, LH), very difficult if you build them the normal way.

This is getting way longer than I wanted it to!

Ok, short and sweet. This was a waterworld so I ship-shained to get caravans from Madrid to the Sioux (located at other islands) in one turn. For this I needed approximately 7 or 8 transports, placed 7 squares apart. Late in the game my science city filled about half the science box and I used 1 or 2 freights to fill the rest of it. The money I earned was spent on incrementally buying new caravans/freights, yielding 15 new ones each turn. Some of them used to trade with, others stored for later use (wonders and space ship building).

When I built the space ship I completed 15 structurals in one turn, one structural in each city. This is done by letting all cities start on a wonder (anyone that hasn't been built yet). Then I used freights to build 50 shields of the wonder, switched to a structural (which counts as a wonder so no shields are lost) and then I bought the remaining shields. After trading the whole game this was no problem (I had 22 906 gold after launching the ship in 1710).

After Plastics I built 3 components of each type and then 1 module of each type. The ship was thus 15-3-3-1-1-1, was launched 1710 with estimated arrival 1725 AD. This configuration was probably a mistake, before some date 15-1-1-1-1-1 is better. Although not guaranteeing 100% success officially, the ship does arrive with 100% certainty but with lower score. I have forgotten the "break point" date...

It is now 5 AM and this was way longer than I expected...

Good night!

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Just a clarification (I don't dare to edit the post! ).

Other players do see which wonders you are building, but only for that one turn you build it as opposed to when you have a city working on a wonder for 30-40 turns.

What I meant was that you can "prepare" the completion of a wonder by building caravans in advance for it. During that time no city will have "(building X)" after its name in your opponent's intelligence reports.

Of course, a clever opponent knows what you're going for anyway, but if there are many wonders available he will have to guess which one you want and face fait accompli (or check with his embassy that single turn). Still, this method gives away less than the "normal" one does.

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited January 06, 2001).]

[Carolus Rex]

Awake again!

Another thing I left out. Of course, you use the same trick when you build components and modules. Start with an available wonder, move in 3 or 6 freights (for components and modules, respectively), switch to the space ship parts and buy the remaining 10 or 20 shields.

Carolus

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I really appreciate how generous everyone's been with their advice, and since you all have taken the time to contribute, I thought you might like to know how it's going.

I've now met my goal -- to win at Emperor without going either Fundy or Commie -- twice. The two games were very similar, though the second was far more successful than the first, resulting in a new high score. Here's what happened.

Having founded my capital in a promising spot, I began expanding. Here, two bits of luck helped: a horseman popped out of my first goody hut, and I found a chokepoint rather quickly and got a city set up there (on a river!). With my land now inaccessible to my neighbors (Carthage and Egypt), I concentrated on settling the land mass I was on, which turned out to be very fertile and capable of accomodating 15 cities with minimal overlap. Meanwhile, my chokepoint city was confining Carthage to a small peninsula and forcing the Egyptians to expand westward, toward the Mongols. Off I went through the tech tree: Bronze-Monarchy-Trade-Philosophy-Astronomy-Monotheism-Economics-Invention-Democracy-Gravity was the general idea, though I made a quick detour early on to get pottery when Monarchy was being withheld; I also got medicine in there somewhere, either right after Democracy or right after Gravity. My 15-city empire was a wonder of wonder-building, using caravans and freight liberally to help projects along, and I managed to build (in this order) Colossus, the Gardens, the Observatory, Mike's, Adam's, Leo's, Newton's, Shakespeare (in my chokepoint city, Antioch, which was now free to churn out military units with impunity), Bach's, the UN, the CfC, SETI, and Apollo. 15 cities seemed enough for a successful game, and I was content to concentrate on internal improvements while building up a sizeable military force in Antioch. All was quiet until the middle of the nineteenth century, when Egypt and Carthage became troublesome; so I rolled out the military and spies I'd been building up, both empires were eliminated, and twelve more cities eventually flew the banner of mighty Persia (this took longer than it should have, thanks to my meddling Senate). This, alas, gave me a border with the Mongols, who immediately began stealing technology, thus provoking war; in a few short turns they were eliminated, too. With peace again at hand and all the spaceship technology discovered, there was nothing left to do but set science to 0% (which still gave me discoveries every 7 turns, thanks to my SSC), jack luxuries up to 90%, finish the spaceship and head to AC.

It was a lovely game. Thanks again, everybody.

------------------
Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder
[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly (edited January 08, 2001).]

[Edward]

Congrats, Rufus. Wonderful game. I would be well advised myself to bash some AI heads along the way to keep them from getting too powerful.

Congrats, Carlos. I've never even approached a launch in the 1700s. Maybe I spend too much time in the beginning building cities when 15 or so will do. Also, I like your "build wonders with caravans" idea. I didn't realize that not only is that more flexible, but costs fewer coins to rush build as well. I think I'll research Trade earlier in future games. Thanks!