Turns of Democracy in Peril

[Darius]

Thanks for spotting the Hive boat. I took a chance and attacked it with my 50% damaged jet, and I lost. I also took a whack at one of your mindworms, but I ended up killing the Fungal Tower instead.

Knowhow2, I offered you Nonlinear Math.

2184 to John.

[johndmuller]

2184 to knowhow2

Well, I also had mixed results in the combat and diplomatic arenas; I lost a brave rover to one of those %$%^@ MW's despite 3:2 odds, but finished it off with a garrison unit. I should have a decent amount of additional force in the neighborhood next turn if they don't knock themselves out on my defenses. Darius, I didn't even know that there was an FT under the MW's!

I probed away that Yang BadBoat up north (its now my BadBoat); too bad you hit it so hard, it will take 2 more pacifist-drone turns to get it into my sea territory. Dumped the garrison stowaway and am once again off to DroneLand with the (now) 2 formers. Any protection/recon-information would be helpful; I think I'm headed to Free Drone Central.

I stole Cyberethics from Yang (let me know if you'all want it), but sadly lost the probe ship. Does the dip that Yang took in the power graph mean that he got Fusion Power?

Having gotten the AMA from Knowhow2, I am now researching Intellectual Integrity (est. 2187), so SuperConductor would be a good thing for you to do, Knowhow2, if you like the idea of Fusion for us; you could also duplicate me on Intel Integ and then switch after I get it.

[knowhow2]

turn 2184 to Darius

switch to Superconductor as suggested. However since I went of FM my research is quite slow compare to earlier so it would take some time to have another breaktrhough. Perhaps I should go green once I pop-boomed enough?

Cybernectic & Adv Mil Alg are the preq for Pre-Sen Alg, a preq for Fusion.

[Darius]

Yes, John, Free Drone Central would be fine. Be aware that you will have to cross a sea fungus square outside the base. I just flew from Shanghai to FDC and there are no enemy vessels within a three-square swath along that route.

The Hive does not have Fusion Power. I do not know what caused that dip. (Would Fusion do that?)

2185 to John.

[johndmuller]

2185 to knowhow2

Finished off the MWs for now (cost me another good rover).

I think that a new reactor does that to the power chart (perhaps the existing units are downgraded as all of them are suddenly no longer the best weapon, armor, etc. or else they spend a lot of ec's upgrading).

Knowhow2, given what we have and what we are working on, Presentient is the only prereq to Fusion yet to be started on. We don't have the tech for "Green" yet (Cent. Empathy), nor do we have a lot of the prereqs for Hybrid Forests. We do, however, have the prereqs for SuperString (Chaos weapons).

Perhaps we need to think about our next set of research targets.

[knowhow2]

turn 2185 to darius

Well if they have the Fusion and we don't then there wouldn't be a fair war would it. Anyway I think Fusion goes before Chaos weapon. Since they have the PDL we can't outtech them so we have to conquest at least some (or boost me up so we can go for Diplomatic, still we need to conquest sooner or later to reduce them).

oh and another thing. I am having major problems with those gigantic files (128k) at hotmail so in the future I would like to download the turn here instead if it's okey with ou john.

[Darius]

The Hive has 9 needlejets in operation. (Or was it the University? I forget now.) But get this - the Consciousness has a chopper in operation and a drop infantry in production.

The Spartans are pummeling my southwest coast. (Spartans? How did they get down there?)

Knowhow2, with the problems on Apolyton's server lately, I doubt that you'll do much better downloading turns from there, not to mention whether the administrator would allow it.

2186 to John.

[knowhow2]

Well I fail to see why the administrator would have a problem with it. You put the file in I download it and then you take it away. It would however take effort out of John (since he's the one that have to put the files both on and off his posts).

My problem is to me hard to work with. As soon as the files are bigger than 30k I start having pronlems. I have to press "download" one or two more times to make it work (the first time a second download comes up and the second just proxy but if I click it a few times the other two will "let loose" so that it can download the rest). With this more than 100k files sometimes the thing get so stuck that nothing helps. I have to restart my computer and that takes like 5-8 minutes each times. This annoys me a lot. I don't know why but it easier to download from here (when it use to work ).

so anyway it's up to you john.

[johndmuller]

2186 to knowhow2

Darius, I almost attacked or asked you to attack the (Drone) ProbeShip down aat (67,31)

Knowhow2, I'm attaching the turn and will e-mail it as well; we can each see what the difference is.

Edit - Saving w/o attatchment

[Darius]

2187 to John.

The Spartans landed on my SW coast. I killed one unit, subverted another, and sank their transport. I have a probe foil within range of a Spartan base to infiltrate them next turn, if they don't have a probe in that base.

[johndmuller]

2187 to knowhow2

Finished researching Intel Integ; now doing Presentient; will finish about the same time as you guys.

Knowhow2, I'm attaching the turn again and have e-mailed it again as well; maybe this time we can each see what the difference is if Poly is cooperating. Was able to drop the old one OK; don't know if it really makes any difference to anyone or to the system, but seems like a good thing to do (except for the PIA factor).

[knowhow2]

turn 2187 to darius

Downloading the files from apolyton takes one second, downloading from hotmail takes at least a couple of minutes (if nothing goes wrong which happens way to often). So if it's okey with you I would like to download the file from apolyton.

[johndmuller]

2188 to knowhow2

Darius: Your Former at (53,33) is finished the BH; Please move it to (55,35) for another BH - Thanks. You've got the transport back now (sorry I forgot to tell you about the formers last turn, I suppose you noticed anyway).

[knowhow2]

2188 to darius

what do guys think about repealing the charts? No right now but in 5-7 turns when I've got a bigger airfleet and all of them armed with Nervegas. Just gas some bases away and we're in driving seat. Any thoughts?

[Darius]

2189 to John.

Repealing the Charter sounds cool to me. I've never done that, though. Are there any negative side effects?

[knowhow2]

AFAIK, only the fact that anything we do to them they can do to us. But knowing the AI (even if this ones have been given certain benefits, they're still AIs) I don't think a large scale comeback would be expected. However this could be considered cheating since Humans obviously have a huge advantage over AI when it comes to the usage of Nervegas.

[johndmuller]

2189 Here.

What talk this is - coming from the UN of all places

Maybe I'll tell Googlie on you, knowhow2.

Aside from the ethics, . . . . .

A) They can presumably outvote us and Yang could possibly veto it, but some of them might be happy to do it anyway; so who knows, it might pass.

B) Nerve Gassing is an atrocity, but I'm not too familiar with the way atrocities work in the big picture, let alone the fine points. On one extreme, the perpetrator would be under automatic vendetatta with everyone, experience economic sanctions for some period of time and become more subject to EcoDamage. I don't know if all that applies to Nerve Gas, but I think it does. We could repact quickly enough, but there would be a one turn hit on the commerce at least; I don't think that we hav the ability to waive the sanctions.

C) The consequences are probably reduced if the Charter is repealed, but it probably still applies as far as the ED is concerned and possibly even the economic sanctions, but I'm pretty sure that we wouldn't have an automatic vendetta occurring amongst ourselves. We should try to find out the actual behavior of these things if possible. You two might want to look at the impact that economic sanctions would have; I think that we would definitely notice the reduction in income.

D) If there are consequences, then not all of us would have to participate in this shameful activity in order to minimize them; Knowhow2 could do the dirty deeds while Darius and I join in the universal condemnation from the sidelines - Death to the Monster Knowhow2

E) Do we actually need to do this? Halving the population would have a less dramatic effect during this part of the game while bases are not that large and if we were going to take them over for our own use, we might want them larger. . Googs said that they would come and get us, but so far, they haven't mounted a really bad attack and we are seemingly holding our own. I suppose that you are thinking ahead, Knowhow2, to when we are trying to take the battle to them.

F) I'm planning to go the Punishment Sphere route, so I can't pretend too much to the moral high ground, but . . . . . .

[knowhow2]

What talk this is - coming from the UN of all places

Actually I'm roleplaying..... is there a bigger backstabber than Lal?

A) They can presumably outvote us and Yang could possibly veto it, but some of them might be happy to do it anyway; so who knows, it might pass.

Hive ALWAYS repeals the chart. Those who usually says no are, Morgan, Drone, Cyborgs and (sometimes) Lal & UoP.

B) Nerve Gassing is an atrocity, but I'm not too familiar with the way atrocities work in the big picture, let alone the fine points. On one extreme, the perpetrator would be under automatic vendetatta with everyone, experience economic sanctions for some period of time and become more subject to EcoDamage. I don't know if all that applies to Nerve Gas, but I think it does. We could repact quickly enough, but there would be a one turn hit on the commerce at least; I don't think that we hav the ability to waive the sanctions.

IIRC. If we repeal the charts Nervegas is NOT considered a atrocity (well i don't think anything are...... including NUKE) so commerce will stay the same. Ecodamage, some I guess but not big enough to be an issue.

C)

look above

D) If there are consequences, then not all of us would have to participate in this shameful activity in order to minimize them; Knowhow2 could do the dirty deeds while Darius and I join in the universal condemnation from the sidelines

well if we don't repeal the charts and I alone starts nervegasing then you two will lose the commerce you get from me. That's plenty (which of cause means that I lose both yours)

E) Do we actually need to do this? Halving the population would have a less dramatic effect during this part of the game while bases are not that large and if we were going to take them over for our own use, we might want them larger. . Googs said that they would come and get us, but so far, they haven't mounted a really bad attack and we are seemingly holding our own. I suppose that you are thinking ahead, Knowhow2, to when we are trying to take the battle to them.

What are we trying to do? How do you plan to win. You do wanna win don't you? We CAN'T outbuild them. Hive has PDL which means that we can never have better tech than them. They are FOUR we are THREE. So they have one more turn to shoot at us when that day comes. Even though we're the humans we can't expect to win just by "building". I'm positive we have to battle them. By gasing them we reduce them and then we can go back building stuff (espescially if we take out the Hive base with PDL).

There are however a morale question when it comes to the cheating part. Nervegas is a HUGE advantage against AIs. How much confident do we have in us without using the small tricks?

[knowhow2]

turn 2189 to darius

[Darius]

2190 to John.

More commentary later....

[Darius]

My preference would be not to use wholesale atrocities, even with the Charter repealed. I've been in a game where a guy did that, and the sea levels and the mindworms went crazy. (He was the Pirates, and his strategy was to provoke Planet as much as possible, hoping that he could survive better than everybody else. The game never got completed, because the guy that he attacked with gas and PBs got so PO'd that he quit the game and quit playing SMAX altogether. He was a well-known participant in these forums, too.) The loss of income would also hurt. Also, I agree that it would be better to take over bases with the population intact as much as possible. And I'm not convinced that we need gas. Many of the opposition bases do not even have AAA garrisons, so we could just clean them out with choppers and march right in.

The Spartans are staging air raids on my territory from a Hive sea base off my southwest coast. My goal right now is to take over that base. But before I do that, I want to build enough probe foils to steal all of the Hive techs AND their world map. Then we will know where the PDL is and can start planning to capture or destroy it. Can anyone participate in this operation, either with aircraft, ships, garrisons or probes?

[johndmuller]

2190

Darius, can't help you directly over there (is it "Sea Collective" that you are targeting?) in any reasonable time frame, but I could "drop" you a unit or two to help on your home front. For example, if I gave you a Police unit, I believe that you could use that attribute on your other units without needing the tech. I could also drop land probes (I think of decent morale) if they would be helpful. It would take me several turns to get started on this, depending on exactly what we wanted to make. When my punishment sphere(s) get going, the p-drone thing will be not so important, but the rehoming business will add time to the process.

I can also do something like this for you too, knowhow2, although it would have to be relayed through Darius' Miners Freehold (to your U.N. High Commission) and might have to involve him as temporary owner to reduce the p-drone costs.

If I am going to drop units across the channel, roads at (50,46) and (50,48) would help me minimize the pacifist drone problem. That way it would take no more than 1 turn in the open to get to your base, depending on whether there was any movement left after the drop. Insofar as I can handle the P-drones or do multiple things in the same turn, I could probably afford to upgrade units from the shell form to their ultimate configuration as well. My plan would be to build high-morale drop shell units - I think under my SE settilngs that they would start out as "veterans", upgradable to "commandos" at a monolith, assuming I built them at a base with best appropriate facilities. They should go "elite" under your SE settings.

As an alternative to the roads, if I had a base at say (49,45), I could drop direct into it and upgrade them and whatever without having to worry about the P-drones. Speaking of pacifist drones, I'm thinking that they occur even in a pactmate's territory, but I don't really know that for sure. I do know that land attack units and sea combattants (whether offensive or defensive) get the P-drones when outside your land or sea borders, but I am uncertain about land garrison units, although I suspect that thay do too. I think what is the deciding factor for land and sea units is whether or not they have a weapon (even a hand weapon). Do either of you know for sure? AFAIK, SAM equipped aircraft are immune and non-SAM aircraft get them all the time, even in your home bases. If the SAM attribute is what does it for fighters, does it also do anything for land and sea units?

[knowhow2]

turn 2190 to darius

my bases are running well on docs and citiziens and they are all growing so police units are not needed at the moment. I can help you against hive with my airfleet but I need to clear out a Cyborg seabase first. I don't have any seaunits at the moment so if any one of you have some it would help. Another thing about this. I'm last player in the turn that means no newle build units can be put in place before my turn. So I should be the one sending the troops in after you make your attack.

[Googlie]

The subject of X-weapons came up in the other Demoacracy in Peril game, and I was approached for an opinion.

I was agas't. Or even flabbergas'ted

You are the three democracies on a planet run wild, taking on an evil empire who will stoop to nothing to achieve their nefarious ends....

You must take the high road, or Yang wins (by pulling you down to the Axis level)

Lecture over

G.

[johndmuller]

Honest, Knowhow2, I didn't turn you in to Googlie
He must have found out on his own - maybe some reporter told him.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you are getting at with your discussion of newly built units and you being the last in turn (and not just because you aren't the last in turn, the rest of it as well).

As far as the Cyborgs go, I can reach part of their domain with drop units and I will have another base right across the shorts-out sea from them in two turns. Eventually, I will be moving against their NorthWestern coast. You are of course welcome to use my bases to launch air and sea attacks from as well.

[Darius]

Yes, I am targeting the Hive base "Sea Collective". It is currently empty of defenders, and I can easily keep it that way with my jets and choppers. I just need to get a ship down there to capture it, and I need to build (or beg from you guys) several AAA garrisons to hold it. Before capturing it, I wanted to nail it with a bunch of probes to steal all the Hive techs plus their map. Some land probes would be helpful, John, because I think probe teams can probe a sea base from a transport, can't they? But I think I probed that base once before, so it probably has one of those security interlock gizmos, right? If that's the case, maybe I will just go ahead and capture it. I still need to build a bunch of garrisons first, though.

I've moved formers into place to build the road you asked for leading into my base.

I, too, am interested in moving on Cyborg territory and was actively building up my forces for just such an attack, but I need to focus on that Hive base first.

Turn to John.

[johndmuller]

2191

I forgot to mention last time - Native Life up through 2210.

Speaking of which, some of the missing Greenish techs might come in handy - We probably want to get Hybrid Forests and Centauri Preserves, not to mention all those fun native units.

Darius, are you planning to protect your fleet by covering it with rotating aircraft, or are you confident you can get there without being attacked on the way? A Locust (see above) would come in handy for the remote chop and >?chirop?< operation to that sea base.

[knowhow2]

turn to darius

I don't think you can probe a seabase with landprobes.

[Darius]

Originally posted by johndmuller
Darius, are you planning to protect your fleet by covering it with rotating aircraft, or are you confident you can get there without being attacked on the way?

I'll cover with aircraft. There doesn't seem to be much activity over there now.

Originally posted by knowhow2 I don't think you can probe a seabase with landprobes.

I know it sounds weird, but I think I remember doing it before.

Turn to John.

[johndmuller]

2192 Here

Darius, I can get a unit over to you the turn after next, although it won't have been monolith-upgraded or converted into a AAA garrison yet; there's a monolith on the way in your territory and I can convert it in one of your bases, but it will need several turns to do everything:
-2193- Trained drop shell unit finished; drop it into MMMM base (from where I can drop into your territory)
-2194- drop unit on (50,46), move to monolith at (50,48) for upgrade
-2195- move unit to Workers Paradise
-2196- drop unit on Craftsman Keep (assuming that is your jumping off point)
-same turn??- convert to AAA Garrison and give to you - I don't know how many of these things can be done together.
Anyway, I don't know if that fits your invasion schedule, but that's the best I can do at present. If your road is done and we skip the monolith, that could save a turn, arriving at Workers Paradise in 2194 instead of 95. If we were to plan ahead a little more, I could have some units already at MMMM.

Do you know what are our relative costs of upgrading units are?

I should be able to do similar things in Aki Territory (in fact a lot easier). I just started a punishment sphere going now, so when that base (3rd World Trading Co.) gets built up a little more, I can base these roving units there (if there is enough lead time, to avoid incurring P-Drone charges) and also some more aggressive units, namely attack aircraft and ships, in that base. My rationale for this unseemly behavior is that this base is importing product made with cheap 3rd world labor.

Regarding probing a sea base with a land probe from a ship: I pretty sure that you can do that, although I recall that sometimes particular bases don't allow it, giving a bad error message saying that you need amphibious pods (which you can't put on probes) or the bad message that says that you need to start your turn on the boat even though you did. Anyway, I think that the occasional reject is a bug, as most of the time you can do it; but when you can't, it seems that you won't be ever able to do it to that base.