When to rushbuild, and when not?

[Jim W]

Okay, for some time now, I've tended to rushbuild anything that was down to the last -20 gold, with occasional exceptions, such as when I had two units coming to that state, and I couldn't afford both of them, while still mainlining some sort of credit balance (say, over 100).

I'm curious about what more experienced players might do about this. Is rushbuilding, perhaps,. something that should be saved for very particular occasions?

In the last stages of the game, when I am pulling in large amounts of gold, I will often spend 200- 500 gold to rushbuild things, usually Spaceship parts.

And in the normal way of things, I am expecting responses from a wide spectrum of views, which I will then carefully assess and decide that most of them require too much micromanaging for an old crosk like me.

Thanks,

Jim W-

[Smash]

It depends


I go for 5 sheilds output first.Then:5 sheilds-buy warrior,5 sheilds-buy phanlanx,5 sheilds-buy archer etc.

Then 10 output-buy all but last row(incrementally)
Then 15 output-buy 20 sheild unit
Then 20 output-buy 30 sheild unit
Then 25 output=2 turn caravans.

Later,when gold is plentiful, I buy as needed.

[Laertes]

Here are my personal do-not-rush-build rules:

1. It's wasted if you have enough shields to build it in that turn anyway (I used to be dumb enough to do this when not concentrating)

2. When you are rushing the only defensive unit in a city and the barbs/enemy are one turn away (because they will take the city "before" your unit is built)

3. Avoid rushing units and caravans if at all possible

I always rush factories, man plants, pollution preventers, universities, sewers; because they are too valuable to wait for. Happy to spend 200-300 doing this.

I also will rush aqueducts, colliseums and temples if the city is celebrating or would be celebrating.

[DaveV]

The flip side of rushbuilding to fill the box is that any shields produced by that city on the next turn will be wasted. So it's a good idea to move your workers for one turn to emphasize trade or food at the expense of shields.

[La Fayette]

Dave,
...so true (that's why it is such a bore micromanaging 30 or 50 cities).

Jim W
Rule #1: Avoid rushbuilding anything with no shields in the box ( wonders and improvements are twice cheaper if you rushbuild with 1 shield in the box).
Rule #2: Preferably rushbuild units stepwise (along with Smash's advice).
Rule #3: We say in french: "l'argent est le nerf de la guerre". This means in particular that a strong treasury:
a) protects you against low cost bribery
b) allows you to invest briskly (IMO the credit balance of 100g that you mention is OK only long BC).

[SlowThinker]

Post 5

Cost of 1 shield (my eperience only):
unit: 2+({residual shield cost}/20)
improvement: 2
WoW: 4

Doubled if shield stock is empty.

Note: I think "residual shield cost" is rounded up to multiple of 10 (I am not sure).
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited January 10, 2001).]

[Jim W]

[quote]Originally posted by Fergus Horkan on 01-09-2001 06:54 AM
Here are my personal do-not-rush-build rules:

1. It's wasted if you have enough shields to build it in that turn anyway (I used to be dumb enough to do this when not concentrating)

2. When you are rushing the only defensive unit in a city and the barbs/enemy are one turn away (because they will take the city "before" your unit is built)

3. Avoid rushing units and caravans if at all possible


So I ought not to be rush-building anything but wonders or buildings? (Subject to special circumstances, of course.)

Jim W

[Sieve Too]

Other times to rush buy:

1) A cheap unit needed to reinstitute order via martial law. You can usually wait a turn though.

2) SDI - 'nuff said.

3) City Walls after you take a city and expect a counter attack on the next turn.

4) Wonders, especially in a race and most especially when you get that most horrid of messages "The Romans have nearly completed their great project: Michaelangelo's Chapel". Even if you do have enough production to finish the wonder on the next turn, go ahead and buy anyway when you get "nearly completed". There's a "cheat" that always lets the human player get the wonder if it is rush-bought.


[This message has been edited by Sieve Too (edited January 09, 2001).]

[jcarkey]

quote: Originally posted by Fergus Horkan on 01-09-2001 06:54 AM 2. When you are rushing the only defensive unit in a city and the barbs/enemy are one turn away (because they will take the city "before" your unit is built)

So, would you take a chance with a 2 move unit "luckily" getting in your city?

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Save the whales, collect the whole set!!

If Al Gore invented the Internet, then I invented the spell check- Dan Quayle

If someone doesn't agree with you, you haven't explained yourself well enough-Luther Ely Smith

[donwebb]

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 01-09-2001 10:04 AM ...so true (that's why it is such a bore micromanaging 30 or 50 cities). Rule #3: We say in french: "l'argent est le nerf de la guerre". This means in particular that a strong treasury: a) protects you against low cost bribery b) allows you to invest briskly (IMO the credit balance of 100g that you mention is OK only long BC).

Le nerf de la guerre... Je note fébrilement l'expression... I wasn't aware that money in the bank raised my units' bribe demands. Thanks for the tip.

Anyway, maybe someone can tell me if I'm doing something inefficient here:

I normally play the "democratic ostrich" strategy and am usually wallowing in money (about 6000 g. and rising) about the time I get Adam Smith's wonder. My rule of thumb, then, is to buy any productive city improvement when it's two turns from completion. If it takes more than two turns to complete but costs 100 g. or less, I buy it anyway.

That speeds up the game, but it's very true that it takes a bit of micromanaging. I can tell from the city list, though, which improvements are ready to be financed and which need to wait a turn or two.

Since wonders are costly, I try to have at least one duplicate wonder building at all times. Then, when I have to buy an advance from a rival in order to build a wonder, I don't take such a big hit in the pocketbook. Buy, convert, finance, and, next turn, voilà, instant wonder!

[debeest]

Since the cost of buying an improvement is two gold per shield, and any shields you would be adding that turn are wasted, it's slightly more efficient to buy improvements as soon as you have any shields in the box. That way you get to spread the wasted shields out over a bigger purchase. Waiting until it's almost built is less efficient.

As noted, gold in your bank increases the cost of bribing your cities and units. Don't let your treasury drop below a thousand or so (in the AD period, anyway) unless you've got a pretty urgent reason.

As Slowthinker notes, improvements are cheap to buy, Wonders are expensive, and units vary in between. Therefore, I buy almost exclusively improvements and save my shields for units. I mostly build Wonders from caravans, but if I don't have enough of them, it can be well worth the money not only to beat someone else to it, but simply to have it sooner. Adam Smith, for example, pays for itself pretty darn fast if you have very many cities, and it's worth the extra cost to get it right away. Hoover Dam, happiness wonders, Leonardo -- just consider the payoff versus the extra cost.

I've never derived Slowthinker's formula for the cost of rush-buying units, but it is clear that (unlike improvements) units are cheaper to buy (on a per-shield basis) when they're nearly done. The methodology described by Smash is very helpful. When you can, arrange to have each city produce a multiple of five shields. Rush-buy as needed to get to a unit that's ten shields less than what you really want, and then let the city produce the last ten, so that no shields are wasted. If you can't produce a multiple of five, you can still buy units pretty cheaply by the stepwise method, but it can take kind of a lot of work.

My game usually focuses on WLT_D. I keep luxuries as low as possible much of the time and then crank 'em up enough so that everybody can celebrate for awhile, and I spend most of my money buying whatever improvement a city needs in order to grow: harbor-aqueduct-sewers, contentment improvements, and market-bank-stocks.

[SlowThinker]

Sorry, there was a mistake in my formula(Post 5):
Cost of 1 shield for a unit is 2+({residual shield cost}/20), not shield cost of full unit.

[donwebb]

quote: Originally posted by debeest on 01-10-2001 02:11 AM My game usually focuses on WLT_D. I keep luxuries as low as possible much of the time and then crank 'em up enough so that everybody can celebrate for awhile, and I spend most of my money buying whatever improvement a city needs in order to grow: harbor-aqueduct-sewers, contentment improvements, and market-bank-stocks.

That makes sense... but could you elaborate a little on your luxuries policy? You may be on to something I could use.

Normally, when I get the republic and democracy, I crank luxuries up from zero to 30 percent and keep that rate for the rest of the game. Exceptions: reverting to communism, fundamentalism or something, but I figure I'm in trouble if I have to do that.

[Sten Sture]

donwebb - are you familiar with using organized "We Love The President Day" celebrations to quickly increase population? By cranking up Luxuries periodically you can have a bunch of cities celebrate to their food maximum, then back off Luxuries to minimal levels until you get some additional square irrigated/supermarkets built. Repeat process every 15-20 turns.


On rushbuilding, I try to round off production early to avoid losing shield production - say, if a city had been running 3 shields and it grows to producing 5 shields with 12 in the box for a new settler; I will then rush phalanx & archer then switch to settler and let the city produce the last 10 shields.

Also I will rush those early warriors after the first turn so I can use trade squares vs shield production and stay happy.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I'm no kind of micromanager, so I only rushbuild in an emergency -- when I need a defensive unit or improvement during a seige, when I need a happiness unit during a revolt, or when someone's about to beat me to a wonder I want. But lately I've been experimenting with rushbuiling factories as soon as they become available. As soon as I get industrialization, I go into any city that's building an improvement and change the improvement to a factory; then I buy as many as I can, buying the rest on subsequesnt turns. I haven't done the math, but it seems like getting extra shields sooner would pay fo itself pretty quickly. Anybody else do that?

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[donwebb]

quote: Originally posted by Sten Sture on 01-10-2001 07:28 PM donwebb - are you familiar with using organized "We Love The President Day" celebrations to quickly increase population? By cranking up Luxuries periodically you can have a bunch of cities celebrate to their food maximum, then back off Luxuries to minimal levels until you get some additional square irrigated/supermarkets built. Repeat process every 15-20 turns.

Wow... taking notes here. Sounds great! How do you know when is the right moment to increase luxuries? When a certain number of cities have no discontented citizens or just one?

quote: On rushbuilding, I try to round off production early to avoid losing shield production - say, if a city had been running 3 shields and it grows to producing 5 shields with 12 in the box for a new settler; I will then rush phalanx & archer then switch to settler and let the city produce the last 10 shields.

Another trick I didn't know. It works because military units cost less than settlers, right? Sounds like a real time-saver.

quote: Also I will rush those early warriors after the first turn so I can use trade squares vs shield production and stay happy.

Not sure I follow... Rush warriors and then switch to settlers to increase trade production? I'm a compulsive irrigator, so I may be misinterpreting here.

[donwebb]

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly on 01-11-2001 02:10 AM But lately I've been experimenting with rushbuiling factories as soon as they become available. As soon as I get industrialization, I go into any city that's building an improvement and change the improvement to a factory; then I buy as many as I can, buying the rest on subsequesnt turns. I haven't done the math, but it seems like getting extra shields sooner would pay fo itself pretty quickly. Anybody else do that?

That's a bold building policy, all right. I've obviously been playing too conservatively on the economic front. Normally I wait till a factory costs 100 g. or less to complete before buying it. That usually gives the city a 2- or 3-turn jump on completing the factory. But it saves money at the expense of time and production.

Not sure about your question whether the factory repays the rush startup cost in the medium term. Your idea makes sense, though: once a city has a factory, it's a lot easier to build money-making improvements.

[Chow Yun Fat]

Usually it is not wise to rush build a factory without Hoover Dam.
You spend about 400 gold for rushing a factory. The return is +50% city production - 4 gold per turn (without powerplant). At a production of 10 shields, the return will be about 5*2 - 4 gold = 6 gold. I am quite certain that the 400 gold spending on freight has a much better return.
Of course, if you have too much gold on hand, rush-building factory is a viable solution.

[Scouse Gits]

Just a quick note:
No-one has yet mentioned the fact that since units are cheaper than wonders (5::8 in fact) rushing a bunch of caravans is the most efficient way of speed building a Wonder, set 4/6/8 cities building caravans - put first shields in the box then rush Warrior (<25), Phalanx, Diplo, Settler, Caravan (25g each) total cost two turns and less than 125g - move into Wonder city for 50 shields (200g) each - three turn Wonder!
Also a good reason to avoid early Feudalism - it really wrecks your rush building.


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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[Laertes]

quote: Originally posted by jcarkey on 01-09-2001 05:11 PM So, would you take a chance with a 2 move unit "luckily" getting in your city?

Not sure whay you mean. If I have recently founded a city without a unit in it, and the barbs turn up, in my experience they will always find and take the city.

(sometimes they offer to bugger off for some cash)

[La Fayette]

Donwebb,
1) I think Sten is advocating something close to what I tried to demonstrate with my "3 arrows" strategy: many people have a strong tendency to think very much in terms of shields at the beginning of the game. If you use your money wisely (for example partly rushbuild warriors instead of building them slowly with your small shield production), then martial law makes your people happy and you can concentrate on trade rich areas (more trade arrows, then more science and more gold).
(also read Xin Yu's size five for that purpose).
2) I strongly agree with Chow Yub Fat: factories are great, but not ASAP (don't forget pollution either, if you build them before HD).
SG
Seems at least YOU agree with my calculations. I salute you.

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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[Everyman]

Rush building decisions take on greater import in the early and middle game. By the end game, your coffers should be overflowing and you should be spending your money anyway. Since factories and space ship parts are built in the end game (in most cases) I will rush-build them at my pleasure -- I can afford to do that because since the game is in hand, the negative consequences are few.

In the early and middle game, rush-build decisions are premised on whether the benefit I receive from having a unit, building, or wonder several turns early is worth the cost.

For example, I find that at Deity level, Hanging Gardens and Michealangelo provide such immediate and far-reaching benefits that I will rush-build them as soon as they are within striking distance.

Another example is whether I should rush-build a temple in a city in chaos. If I find that the benefits of having a productive city outweigh the costs, then I will rush-build a temple. If not, then I will consider other means of keeping the citizens happy.
[This message has been edited by Everyman (edited January 11, 2001).]

[Smokey tha nuke man]

rushbuild a unit if:
1.an enmy unit is two turns away
2. your rich and don't want to wait for a really expensive unit (armor, nuke, battleship, etc.)
rushbuild an improvement when:
it is absolutlynecesary (city in civil disorder, buy a temple).
Rushbuild wonders if it is very important to your stategy and the ai is going to beat you to it

in general, rushbuild factories, manufacturing plants, and power plants in cities with 5 or ,or prtoduction in a cize 3 city or bigger.

[Strategicking/A-Team]

The decision to "rush " build should be aided by decisions made when determining your city placement. I use the 5 factor or 10 factor principle. I space my citys so that they can get up to 10 resource production or at worse 5. Then for maximum efficency useing level buying meaning if you want to build a settler and have 10 resource production, buy an archer or a diplomat or explorer (30 resources) then switch to a settler. You must really explore your need to complete the unit with total gold and they must be overwhelming to do it.

[Scouse Gits]

La Fayette, Merci Monsieur - but what's to disagree with? A sound strategy deserves support.
Just a note on Treasury - in my games I count myself lucky if I have much more than 100g in the coffers before SoL & Fundy!!!!
Yes this makes you vulnerable, just don't let them diplos get near!


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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[EOL]

In the early game I like to buy improvements as soon as possible so I can get back to producing carvans, settlers whatever. If I'm short of cash that might mean
going for a cheaper building and then switching production (nice not to waste those shields too ). Always try and keep back 50-100g for Barb bribing.

"Perhaps we should adjust the tax rate, sire." , sigh!

Usually don't have to worry about being bribed, tend to be at peace/allied with everyone at this stage.

Later on, I buy factories if allows a city to produce 20+ shields (25 is better) before Hoover's. After Hoover's the credit cards out for all the larger cities. Sometimes rush-build supermarkets in smaller cities to grow them more quickly (esp if not in Demo), if I'm not very far ahead of the AI.

Rush build man. plants to get over 70 shields. Howitzer every turn from a few cities can soon bring the AI to its knees .

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"One day your life is going to flash before your eyes, make sure it is worth watching."

[Hawkman]

There is always a tradeoff to consider when rush buying, but too much analysis will detract from the game (fun), so I use some guidelines. For factories, I'm willing to spend up to 200 gold on the buy, and more if I have lots of gold and can buy every factory. I don't like buying at two turns away, because only one turn is saved - the cost for saving one turn is usually more than I'm comfortable with.

Caravans that are used for trade are not good buy candidates, it takes away from the profit. Caravans built for wonders are good candidates, but only if I'm being pressed by another civ.

You guys have some good rules. Thanks, I'll try some of them.

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by SlowThinker (post 5)
Cost of 1 shield (my eperience only):
unit: 2+({residual shield cost}/20)

So the full cost (cost of all the shields) is
2*{residual shield cost} + {residual shield cost}^2 / 20
(the result is rounded down)

Edit: residual shield cost - I mean the number of shields to be bought
Edit: error in the formula

[SlowThinker]

double post

[Xin Yu]

The cost for buying n shields of production in unit is
n(n+40)/20, rounded down. Double if there is zero shields accrued.