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Old August 9, 2001, 21:49   #1
Lenius
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Britain in Civ3??? NO THANKS
This is a very serious RANT!

It's bad enough us Celts (Welsh and the Scots) get tagged along with the English in real life, but doing it in a Civilisation game is going TO FAR. Not only do you do that but the supposed Civ3 Britain has Elizabeth I as it's leader, i hate to give you a history lesson but i'm gonna. Elizabeth I NEVER ruled over Britain. So called Britain didn't exist under her reign, James I was the first King of so called Britain but was no means politically united, in fact it wasn't for another 100 odd years.

Please I implore you FIRAXIS, don't include Britain just return it back to England. I may not like the English to much but they deserve a place in Civ3 on their own.

As a proud Welsh nationalist I simply could not play Civ3 if Britain is included.
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Old August 9, 2001, 21:51   #2
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Why not change the name....? Presto, England returns.
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Old August 9, 2001, 21:52   #3
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Old August 9, 2001, 21:52   #4
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And as an Irish mutt (I'm also Italian and Cherokee Indian and God knows what else), I feel this man's pain.
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Old August 9, 2001, 22:38   #5
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Re: Britain in Civ3??? NO THANKS
Quote:
Originally posted by Lenius
As a proud Welsh nationalist I simply could not play Civ3 if Britain is included.
And lets have Quebec as a separate nation from Canada or else they won't play Civ3 either. I hate separatists, they're the reason for the violence in the Balkans and Ireland and the fact that the federal gov't here sucks all the money out of Alberta so Quebec can have more money to produce anti-Canada propaganda. Just work something out and put up with each other.
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Old August 10, 2001, 00:19   #6
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Re: Britain in Civ3??? NO THANKS
Quote:
Originally posted by Lenius

As a proud Welsh nationalist I simply could not play Civ3 if Britain is included.
That'd be your loss, boyo.

But seriously, Wales had already been absorbed into the English kingdom, and Elizabeth was succeeded by her Nephew, King James VI of Scotland. He became James I of a (the) British united kingdom.

Elizabeth also came from the Tudor dynasty, which was Welsh, I believe. I agree with you one one level, though: we should have "Britons" or "English" and Celts". The Celts deserved to get in as their own civ, but that's just my opinion.
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Old August 10, 2001, 02:15   #7
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Hey were are all the Polish screaming about being included with the Germans through history and now in Civ? What about the Macedonians and the Greeks?


Come on, not playing Civ III because the English are included? So did you play Civ I or II? This is just plain silly.
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Old August 10, 2001, 02:32   #8
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Originally posted by tniem
What about the Macedonians and the Greeks?
what about Macedonians and Greeks?
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Old August 10, 2001, 04:10   #9
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I am sure the Incans are really mad to find out they got rolled into the Aztecs. The Mongols are furious now that they are gone, and nobody from Northern Europe will buy the game coz the Vikings aren't in.
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Old August 10, 2001, 04:32   #10
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In my opinion their should be a seperate Celt and a seperate English civilisations in Civ3. If their isn't going to be a Celt Civ (Ancient or Modern) please don't tag us with the English to create Britain theirs enough tension in this area without introducing it to Civilisation.
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Old August 10, 2001, 05:52   #11
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Whereas I don't really disagree with Anne Robinson views I do think with the emphasis on Culture in CIV3 having Britain rather than England seems silly. In the screenshot on the developers page where it lists Civ Specific Abilities it says English rather than British so I wonder if the Civ list is mistaken when it says Britain?
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Old August 10, 2001, 06:01   #12
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it seems like the nation(in the civ list) is called "english" and the country(in the setup screen) is called "britain"
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Old August 10, 2001, 06:03   #13
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I think that English will like in civ1 and civ2 been included just like the English not as UK. Especial because Elizabet is indeed an English but not a UK king. In the whole history of the UK has there always been some kind of rebelion in quite all regions they owned that weren't England so they are clearly separated cultural entinies and are not viewed as part of the English I think. I really hope they choose again England instead of UK because England is much older.
The fact that the celts aren't included doesn't mean they are seen as a part of England. Just like the fact that the Dutch aren't included doesn't mean they are seen as a part of the Germans(or Spanish, or French, or Austrians, or Romans just quite everyone has ruled them ).
I think they aren't included for gameplay reasons: Europe is already full and the English island is to small(in civ) for 2 civilizations.
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Old August 15, 2001, 23:06   #14
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Nationalism
This letter is long, but I believe that could be good explain the background of this situation:

I'm catalan, and I'm quite nationalist.

In the past, Spain was Castilla-León Crown and the Catalanoaragonese Crown (known as Kingdom of Aragón and Count of Barcelona, by the shortest name, "Crown of Aragón"). Catalanesque, my/our language, is spoken in big cities, Barcelona (the olympic one ) with a 4'7 milions in its metropolitan area, València with 2'2, and Mallorca with 0'5, also there another cities. Catalanesque is the ONLY official in the tiny state of Andorra, is small, but is independent and, so, catalanesque is internationally official. In the last thirty years (Franco Decline + Transition + Predemocratic State) the catalanesque has grown from 5 to 10 millions of speakers and 6 million of catalanesque-base speakers. The castillians is starting to be strange (again) in some zones of Catalonia, thus castillian ("spanish") only was spoken here in these zones the last 150 years (in main cities, sooner of course).

In the XIII-XV we controlled all the western mediterranean, we had important people in the cultural spheres (Ramon Llull, one of the most important ones), we had popes in the Vaticano (we ressurected Rome The "bit-barbarian" valencian family of Borgia make a lot of bad things, but a big ones too!). In a short period, a catalan flag was at the top of the Parthenon, in Athina. We wasn't a superpower, but a "big one" yes.

Castillian is spoken by the 35% of Catalonia and 47% in Valencian Country too, but the most important isn't that the language is big and international, the important is that we are four nations (Catalans, Valencians, Balears and Andorrans) that respect the "Spain" ideal, because *could* be a great thing. In Germany there is a true democratic and federal state, so, here could be it too. Also, castillian (NOTE: "Español" name for the language was used in Spain the first time at 1927, the true name is castillian) is a *great* language with *a lot* of speakers, is a great thing, but it isn't our language, so we want have our own language in the top position, and castillian in the second too!

Now, UK started something similar with Wales, Scotland and North Eire, in 30 (more or minus) years the situation could be similar to us (but with a TRUE democratic system), and THIS will be the time to create a state where all the people could sense a relationship to it. Nationalism are uncomprenisble in USA because the only one that they have was the amerindians, and in the past were exterminate (Spanish Empire made the same with Incans and Aztecs, we aren't better!!), the only secessionist movement is in Texas, and is pathetic.

So, if you're lucky and your civ appears in the game, is a great thing, but when our civ (catalan) doesn't appear we think (OK; China had a big empire, USA Missiles, Aztecs must exist to full the empty America, etc...) an the more-known-one not too (Spain/Spanish), with a great past like has Spain, you think that we're again in a Anglo-centered game.

Zulus only were known by their wars with anglic ones, the same with Iroquese, in the place of them I preffer Ethiopia or Incans (The Birú) if you say me that "these continents are empty without them". So, please, understand us.

Now I believe that you can think as us, and why the Non-England ones are angry with the "Britain" name, and us with the "Spain" one. The good one MUST be "Castilla" and "England", or use the original AOK style, "Iberians", "Anglos", etc... Yes, they won a lot of wars, but we still here, and the names that FIRAXIS choosed (and some of the civs) are only thinked to reproduce the winners' wars, not an alternative.

If there is a problem with European civs, "Mediterraneans", "Nordics" and "Celts" could be prefectly the only three civs, and everybody will be happy. And for americans, "Colonials". What could happened if the Lousiana State emerged as a great country? "La Unité du Pays de l'Amerique", "UPA"??
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Old August 16, 2001, 03:26   #15
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First thanks for the great post XarXo - I learnt a lot from it. I've been to Barcelona and I loved the city and the people. One of the images that I still have is at midnight I saw a whole exteneded family - Grand-parents down to grand-kids playing boules (sp?) in a park. I was blown away by seeing this in a major city and I couldn't imagine it happening here. The only thing I really knew about Catalonia is ETA which is not a good level of ignorance, I agree.

I also I agree that the Civ's that have been choosen make sense only in game terms, which after all is how it should be. But in the real-world with real history they insult a number of peoples. What to do? In the end it is a game and will never satisify everyone - but as time goes by there will be expansion packs, mods from fans etc which should be able to address some concerns. Civ3 is an Anglo-centric game but that is where the current power is - doesn't make it right or fair but it makes it real.
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Old August 16, 2001, 11:08   #16
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It gives the majority of players someone to associate with.

And if you don't like it you can always change the name...
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Old August 16, 2001, 12:16   #17
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What I don't understand about nationalism is why anyone cares- there is no better group of people in my mind, everyone is human.

Thus we should all be united under the banner of a Human League.
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Old August 16, 2001, 13:24   #18
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Why should the Celts deserve to be one of the top 16 civs? They were barbaric tribes that were destroyed centuries ago.
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Old August 16, 2001, 13:53   #19
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Shut up Tingkai
Quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Why should the Celts deserve to be one of the top 16 civs? They were barbaric tribes that were destroyed centuries ago.
We're not talking about the ancient Celts, we're talking about the "Medevial" Celtic Kingdoms (Wales, Scotland, and Ireland

Finally; The ancient Celts Aren't Barbarians!!! Heck, They built Stonehenge without wheels using stone from Wales

Anyway; my definition of a MAJOR civilization is a nation or closely tied group of city states that had a great impact on the world.

So, U.S.A. is IN

And draco, quit dissing the US
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Old August 16, 2001, 15:55   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by MarkG
it seems like the nation(in the civ list) is called "english" and the country(in the setup screen) is called "britain"
Nice to see consistency then. I'm sorry but I think that is just really stupid, and cannot be excused.

Anyway,

I agree that the English should be the civ in the game and not the British, mainly because the English have been around for over a millenium, whilst Britain only as long as the US, and they aren't a civ are they KrazyHorse (). I also feel that the "British" civ is about as accurate as a "European" civ. Britain as a country was a notion used to get the Scots and to a much lesser extent Welsh onside - they would be willing to fight for their country Scotland or "Britain", but they wouldn't feel pride fighting for England.
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Old August 16, 2001, 17:22   #21
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BC is right, confusing 'England' and 'Britain' is an appalling mistake (I already made a thread on this).

Oh, and to any Welsh nationalists - Wales becoming its own country is a bad idea - Western Europe doesn't need any third world countries
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Old August 16, 2001, 17:41   #22
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Quote:
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Oh, and to any Welsh nationalists - Wales becoming its own country is a bad idea - Western Europe doesn't need any third world countries
Welsh and Scottish independence would be a good thing for the average English person. Scots have a greater representation in parliament per head of population, and the Welsh and Scots are also a net receiver of money from England.

I say give the Scots independence on the condition that they take the Northern Ireland issue with them.
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Old August 16, 2001, 18:56   #23
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Quote:
Oh, and to any Welsh nationalists - Wales becoming its own country is a bad idea - Western Europe doesn't need any third world countries
Very funny Red, apart from Wales being a small country, England is most to blame for Wales being poor - (if you want me to go into reasons why i shall) having said that far from all of Wales is poor, anyone whos been to Cardiff will know that, Cardiff is one of the fastest growing cities in uk i do believe if not western europe.

Anyway I'm glad to see that the vast majority would prefer Britain not to be in Civ3 and to be changed to England. Afterall it would only take a few text adjustments (from what i can see) to solve this problem that is certainly highly contentcious to people like myself.

So FIRAXIS please take note.
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Old August 16, 2001, 22:06   #24
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Re: Shut up Tingkai
Quote:
Originally posted by Odin


We're not talking about the ancient Celts, we're talking about the "Medevial" Celtic Kingdoms (Wales, Scotland, and Ireland

Finally; The ancient Celts Aren't Barbarians!!! Heck, They built Stonehenge without wheels using stone from Wales

Anyway; my definition of a MAJOR civilization is a nation or closely tied group of city states that had a great impact on the world.

So, U.S.A. is IN

And draco, quit dissing the US
A bunch of stones heaped together doesn't exactly propel a bunch of barbarians into a civilize nation. And exactly what signigicant structure have the Celts built since Stonehenge?

What great impact have the Welsh, Scots and Irish had as Celtic people, other than when they were part of the British nation?
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Old August 17, 2001, 04:50   #25
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Tingkai where do you hail from?
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Old August 17, 2001, 05:05   #26
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It's funny- BC and Lenius' posts seem to contradict each other.

I don't really care anymore about Welsh or Scottish independance - if they want their own country, fine. England is better than them anyway (j/k)


I don't understand why Firaxis have 'English' as the race and 'Britain' as the country. I don't know where to begin in describing why that is wrong.
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Old August 17, 2001, 05:18   #27
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XarXo,

Although I tend to see some of the things you wrote in a slightly different manner, that was a damn good post, man Cultural richness arises from diversity, no doubt about it.
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Old August 17, 2001, 07:27   #28
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Re: Re: Shut up Tingkai
Quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
What great impact have the Welsh, Scots and Irish had as Celtic people, other than when they were part of the British nation?
*Sigh* This is just an incitement to indulge in silly bragging matches. The fact that England never managed to conquer Scotland despite centuries of warfare with much larger resources is some kind of tribute. Heck even the Romans decided to build a wall and go defensive rather than fight the clans.

There are many Scottish discoveries and inventions listed at http://www.fife.50megs.com/scottish_inventions.html
unfortunately most of these stem from after 1603 when the English and Scottish thrones were united. Sorry about that, if you really think it important. Interestingly King James the VI and I who united the thrones is also the founding monarch of the United States. Under his reign, the first successful colonies were planted on the American mainland--Virginia, Massachusetts, and Nova Scotia (Latin for New Scotland) in SE Canada. The King himself ordered, wrote and authorized the Evangelistic Grant Charter to settle the Colony of Virginia:

"To make habitation...and to deduce a colony of sundry of our people into that part of America, commonly called Virginia...in propagating of Christian religion to such people as yet live in darkness...to bring a settled and quiet government."
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Old August 17, 2001, 07:33   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lenius


Very funny Red, apart from Wales being a small country, England is most to blame for Wales being poor - (if you want me to go into reasons why i shall) having said that far from all of Wales is poor, anyone whos been to Cardiff will know that, Cardiff is one of the fastest growing cities in uk i do believe if not western europe.

Anyway I'm glad to see that the vast majority would prefer Britain not to be in Civ3 and to be changed to England. Afterall it would only take a few text adjustments (from what i can see) to solve this problem that is certainly highly contentcious to people like myself.

So FIRAXIS please take note.
Well before you start off on saying that England is the baddy and Wales has been victimised, try looking within the UK as well. Look at the North or at regions of the Midlands who are as poor, if not poorer than the Welsh. There are a lot of northern cities that look a lot more run down than the Welsh cities I have seen. It is a greater problem than Welsh vs. English, it is one of regional inequalities throughout the United Kingdom.

Well looking at the 'civ of the week' page, it says English, so I presume it will be the English that are in.

Which reminds me from the original civ. There was only one female leader in the game, Elizabeth. But none of the text change. It was interesting to see 'Greetings from he who makes mortals tremble, Elizabeth of the English'
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Old August 17, 2001, 07:56   #30
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Quote:
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Which reminds me from the original civ. There was only one female leader in the game, Elizabeth. But none of the text change. It was interesting to see 'Greetings from he who makes mortals tremble, Elizabeth of the English'
Helped make the game a true classic
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