A Civilization

[Ozymandias]

Hmmm... "Real" Civilizations...

By 2250 BCE there were precisely three literate societies: Sumero-Akkadian (effectively Babylon in game terms), Egypt, and the Harappans along the Indus River (which is where the Indians should logically start. (Sorry I don't have a Chinese literacy date at hand.)

Greeks first wandered into Greece ca. 1850 BCE.

Phoenicians and Etruscans arrive on the scene ca. 825 BCE.

Assyrians go on their rampage ca. 670 BCE.

Carthage is on the scene by about 480 BCE.; the Persian empire is about at its largest extent at that time as well.

Alex the Great rules ca. 323 BCE, and his empire divides into four kingdoms (ruled by Lysimachus, Antigonus, Seleucus and Ptolemy) upon his death.

Rome's a going concern by 270 BCE.

I don't have my non-Eurocentric sources at hand but I'm sure you get the drift -- "realistically" probably only Sumer/Babylon, Egypt, India, and I suspect China "should" start at the game's beginning.

... On the other hand, the climactic disaster of the sixth century CE sort of put every civilization back a few steps; turn lengths could be changed to keep the number of turns the same and, starting in the 9th Century we'd have (depending upon precise starting point):

Germans
French
Byzantines
proto-Spain (Galicia) / Visigoths
Italians / Ostrogoths
Russia (the trading posts which became Russia were in existence by then)
India
China
Aztecs
Bantu
various khanates and emirates
etc.

(this list is off the top of my head, so kindly forgive any imprecision).

Spme (random) examples of civ advance impoverishment:

The French would lack math, construction, philosophy and (arguably) currency.

The New World civs would be starting out near ground zero.

Play with the Civ tech tree some, play-balance, and it should make for a very interesting and decently historical game.

-Ozymandius

[KrazyHorse]

And...Minoans? Linear B, etc? Pre-everyone else, IIRC. Knossos was the first real city, no?

I might be mixed up on the chronology here...

[DarkCloud]

Slav's aren't Mongoloids

The 4 great distinctions:

African- In Africa
Mongoloid- in North America, South America, Asia
Caucasian- In Europe
Austrailoid- Australia Aboriginies

These are the only 4 true Races, from which is descended Saddam's list.

Actually, anything which has a developed culture and a distinct culture is a civilization... but we are arguing about 'great civilizations'

[d_dudy]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Actually, anything which has a developed culture and a distinct culture is a civilization... but we are arguing about 'great civilizations'

that should settle the entire discussion

[XarXo]

In a past thread I said something that now could be useful:

Well, a known Civ-Requirement is that the civilization must have some other-cultures-exterminations, bloody wars, terrorist tactical moves, horrorous past and large empires that dured short periods. i. e.: Germany, USA, Japan, Spain, China, Greece...

USA has exterminated a lot of ameriandians, japanese and iraquians, started bloody wars (except one, all OUT of its territory!!!), has an horrorous past, etc...

So, USA ARE A CIV!!!

NOTE: The first (known) city was Çatal Hûyûk.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
African- In Africa
Mongoloid- in North America, South America, Asia
Caucasian- In Europe
Austrailoid- Australia Aboriginies

Shame Europeans killed off the Neanderthals 20-30,000 years ago. Things may have been very different in the world today.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
Shame Europeans killed off the Neanderthals 20-30,000 years ago. Things may have been very different in the world today.

As far as I know there is no evidence that the Neantherthals were killed off by the Cro-Magnon.

[DarkCloud]

Wars on American Territory-
War of 1812, XarXo?
1776-1781 (the So-Called Revolutionary War )
Civil War?

[Christantine The Great]

DC, the War of 1812, with the exception of Washington DC and the border between USA and Canada, was largly fought at sea and not on US territory. Not much damage was done on both sides.

Neanderthals wouldn't have progressed far. If they made it to the end of the Ice Age they probably would have been blended in with homo sapiens and some Europeans would have been a bit shorter and stocky.

NOTE: The first (known) city was Çatal Hûyûk.

Everyone knows that the first city was either Rome, Moscow, or Cardiff and it was founded in 6000 BC.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Christantine The Great
DC, the War of 1812, with the exception of Washington DC and the border between USA and Canada, was largly fought at sea and not on US territory.

You forgot about New Orleans.

Originally posted by Christantine The Great
Not much damage was done on both sides.

Other than the Americans burning what is now Toronto, and burning the border towns during the winter of 1813 (I think). The latter burnings resulted in many civilians freezing to death.

That in turn led to the Brits burning Washington. The presidential home was scorched, rebuilt and painted white. Hence the name.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Ribannah


As far as I know there is no evidence that the Neantherthals were killed off by the Cro-Magnon.

As modern humans moved west through Europe, so Neanderthals retreated west. By the time humans and reached the Iberian peninsula Neanderthals were wiped out.

It may not be direct (i.e Humans killing Neanderthals) but encroachment of territory seems the most plausible explanation. The other option is interbreeding and assimilation, but this would have been small scale at best.

[d_dudy]

Originally posted by Christantine The Great
DC, the War of 1812, with the exception of Washington DC and the border between USA and Canada, was largly fought at sea and not on US territory. Not much damage was done on both sides.


Everyone knows that the first city was either Rome, Moscow, or Cardiff and it was founded in 6000 BC.

ya, it not like the presidential palace was deystroyed......

moscow?

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
It may not be direct (i.e Humans killing Neanderthals) but encroachment of territory seems the most plausible explanation. The other option is interbreeding and assimilation, but this would have been small scale at best.

Maybe also something as simple as a shortage of births.
Btw, the Neantherthals seem to have known both Fire and Ceremonial Burial

[Christantine The Great]

ya, it not like the presidential palace was deystroyed......

You're right, it wasn't destroyed. It was damaged. Bigger buildings have been built/damaged/destroyed/burnt.

Other than the Americans burning what is now Toronto, and burning the border towns during the winter of 1813 (I think). The latter burnings resulted in many civilians freezing to death.

I don't know that much about the War of 1812 so I didn't know that. But I was comparing it to the other two American-territory wars, "Revolution" and Civil. A few towns is not major damage.

moscow?

Think, white starts first, right? Take it from there...

[YefeiPi]

d_dudy

yes, our govterment is stupid to dislike people who run their fighter jets into our planes

How about I tell you that U.S was spying on China and crashed their big ass plane into the Chinese jet fighter because the American pilot is incompetent? I say EVEN if the Chinese pilot did the crash, which I do not believe for a second, I say US deserved it.


Saddam

These are the real civilizations:
1) Celts
2)Hebrew
3)Arab
4)Persian
5)Mongol
6)Saxon
7)Aryan
8)Mayan
9)Slav

The Chinese should be on the top of the list, and Aryan, isn't that a race?

[d_dudy]

i won't say a thing.....

[lupusmalus]

Originally posted by Ozymandias
Hmmm... "Real" Civilizations...

By 2250 BCE there were precisely three literate societies: Sumero-Akkadian (effectively Babylon in game terms), Egypt, and the Harappans along the Indus River (which is where the Indians should logically start. (Sorry I don't have a Chinese literacy date at hand

And what about Atlantis??? .

And the first city is usually held to have been Jericho, at about 8000 BC if I remember correctly.

And the Neanderthals were probably just too much adapted to their harsh environment whereas our smart species can live and breed about anywhere, including disco toilets Interestingly the first great flowering of civilization seems to have ocurred during the time of contact between the Neanderthals and "modern" humans. It's all about competition, isn't it?

[Admiral PJ]

Maybe the Neanderthals do still exist..
they may be relatives of the Yeti and Bigfoot which may or may not be pure fiction.
From what I make out Yetis etc are reportedly in remote parts of America and China/Tibet which IS where you'd expect surviving prehistoric humanoid species , without the pressures of the homosapiens greed for land use and able to hide and survive the more hostile environment(high ice altitude and thick forests).

[lupusmalus]

Neanderthals in America? THAT accounts for it!!!

[lupusmalus]

Originally posted by Saddam

REAL civilizations

1) Celts
2)Hebrew
3)Arab
4)Persian
5)Mongol
6)Saxon
7)Aryan
8)Mayan
9)Slav

etc...

Sid seems to like picking Nationalities here, and not Civilizations..Europe would have been lumped in 3 categories. Celts, Saxon, and Aryan (until Mongol invaders came, bringing Slavs)

They obviously ARE picking nations rather than civilisations, but that's

1) no problem because as I see it nations is the way in which civilisations manifest themselves, i.e. in subgroups, and a healthy civilization has a lot of them. In my view there's not an American civilization or a French or German one but a Western civilization, and the same goes for all the other civs.

2) If you accept this defnition picking nations instead of civs is actually the only feasible way to do it because civilisations do not act politically, only their subgroups do, and we DO want a strategy game, don't we??? There were some cases where one nation absorbed all the other subgroups of its civilisation, like the Romans or the Incas did, but these are the exception and for all their imperial splendour indicate that a civilisation is actually already in decline. Competition is essential! So here's my answer to the question whether the US belong in: they aren't a civ but neither are most of the other "civs" in the game, they are subgroups of their respective civilizations and since the US are the leading subgroup of Western civilization they definitely belong in! Period.

And Saddam, you seem to be mixing up civs and "races" and don't really seem to know where they belong, either. I guess with "Aryan" you mean "Germanic", which is what Hitler and his ilk meant just that they didn't have any idea what they were talking about. The Aryans were actually the eastern branch of the Indoeuropean language family from which Persian and Sanskrit derived. And shouldn't the Saxons in your scheme fall under the Aryan heading if what you mean is "Germanic"? At least according to Hitler the Anglo-Saxons were the second most "Aryan" people there was, after the Germans... And don't tell a Pole or a Czech that they belong to a "Slav" civilisation, in their view they're as much part of Western civilisation as anyone else and have been since they were Catholicised. Maybe one could make a case for an Eastern Orthodox civilisation, but this would include non-Slavs and exclude some Orthodox like the Greeks who are definitely Western in my view. The contemporary ones, I mean, not ancient Greece! And I guess even the Russians could be subsumed under Western civilization, a lot of them have argued this for centuries. And the Slavs were in Europe LOOOONG before the Mongols had their special guest appearance. And that's for the more obvious flaws in your scheme.