Waging War

[Sergeant Sheets]

That which you enter lightly should only be that which you may exit lightly. All other situations must be utterly prudent.

THE CONCEPT OF WAR IN CIV

Civ takes the position of units being like chess pieces: destroy or be destroyed. Replacable unlike the knights and rooks of chess, yes, yet it is a chess game, both with the computer and with the human opponents on the other end.

Reason for war:

You must an object, and a rational for the objective, particularly in MP. Never wage war, however, assuming to achieve one goal. If you achieve the goal (most likely capturing a city), always consider A) How am I going to be counter attacked and more importantly B) Before this civ has time to build up an army to defend itself next time, where can I strike for more gain? Collarly to B is my opinion that in MP a strike should either concentrate on an important, but non-centrally located city, or on two different cities at once.

To reason a war, you have to have some advantage over the enemy. If its Spies, then use them to subvert cities and move in with your defenses. If its Great Wall, use it to fight a war with minimal defenses in captured cities, allowing you to stretch your forces further. If its Sun Tzu, use it to make a veteran army that you will use prudently. If its Monotheism, use Crusaders to attack the militaristicly inferior nations.

If you have no advantage (mere size or wealth do not count), do not fight. Subvert, or build you empire into theirs, simultaneously heavily defending the cities you build one square from their major cities on their major sources of wealth.

When to Fight and to Incite:

Incite to capture your first city, if possible. This gives you a base and the only unit expended is a diplo (if you use a spy, she lives). Do not exhaust your treasury to incite every city- remember you need to buy units to speed up production. Attack the weak cities and incite those cities built on mountains or hills with walls, for even a warrior can fend off a tank in that case.

The concept of war in civ:

Civ is not a war simulation game. It is not particularly good at any aspect of strat games except its balance. Like Star Wars, there's something for everyone. War is one way to win, and the only red blooded way to do it. If you love football (either the Communist or American version), don't puss out and build the spaceship.

To wage war in civ is 90% the structure of your civ and 10% execution. Strategy is in the prep, not the battle. Same in life- most battles are won before they are fought. This is how to win the war:


CIVILIZATION STRUCTURE

Cities: More the better. Why? If I have nine cities that produce a sum of 100 shields (a good amount for the period of the civ game I default to, that is 1-1000 AD) and that produce 100 coins, 100 beakers, etc., I can produce at most nine units per turn, and we know that a couple cities are building improvements, such forth and so on. But having thirty cities that sum to produce in 600 AD about 120 shields and equal numbers of beakers and coins, I can realisticly produce nine units a turn and not be over extended. I use my core cities to finance my empire and wonder production, and use my Empire to build my armies. Nine cities, even big cities, producing nine units every third turn is harder on a civ than 30 cities producing nine units every other turn. Build build build, and so what is some ****head captures the city you named after your girlfriend (or boyfriend)? Rename and recapture.

Do not overextend and build a colessium in a city until it reaches size 14 or 16; the point is this:

Your civs is three things: Your population, your roads, and your units. Under population is how many cities you have as well as how big the cities are. As before said, thirty size one, two, three and four cities are worth more than nine size six, seven, and eight cities.

Roads: Trade caravans and freight are under roads, but roads also give you trade in of themselves. You need roads to interconnect your empire. You need caravans for the science bonus, the coin bonus, and the permanent trade arrows between cities. Keep producing a caravan every tenth turn or so per city. Keep building roads around cities but first between cities. Don't waste time building fortress in your empire unless next to an enemy or if your in the modern age when railroads make fortresses necessary.

Units: How many settlers are working and how many of them are NONE units? Get as many NONE units, particularly settlers, as you can in any way that you can, including the variety of cheats devised. More importantly, what kind of units do you have? Defensive, offensive, bombardment. If you have defensive army (having the Feudalism tech coupled with mathmatics), I suggest buying the fringe cities of an empire and eating away their ability to mass produce. Build Sun Tzu. I further suggest unit the defensive units to guard expanding you empire buy building cities, lots of them. If you have an offensive army (monotheism or chivarly techs), build Great Wall and swiftly attack, attack, attack those that either also have an offensive army, or those having inferior techs. Don't battle the Feudalistic empire with Crusaders, because they'll eat you lunch.


Location: Island or continent. Islands are a pain to attack because you have to land and then move EVERYTHING to the island by ship (air lifts later in the game). When you attack an island, particularly the long, narrow ones, go for two places: the biggest city and the middle. If these co-exist, go for the middle and north end of the island. People always build North and think North. Buy a city or two as a base, land your troops.

If your an island, watch out. Making war from an island is tough. Resources are tight and you can't put that many cities on an island (this summation requires one to know the difference between an Island and a Continent. Sometimes its a tough question in Civ). I suggest heading for defensive technologies early on ang get the upper hand two ways: Become technologically superior and trade alot. Don't forget to colonize a continent so that you have a stable base of action. If you're core cities are an island, make those cities your economic core and establish core cities on the continent that are production oriented.

Continent: Thank Sid that you aren't some poor bastard out on an island. If your offensively orientated in your techs, make those poor guys your first target, because they are weak, even if technologically equal, they are weak by being so tightly built. Bribery will be expensive, but if you control a few core production squares, you can bring them down, even as much as they fight.

Attacking a continental empire is a two edged sword: You have great distance to traverse to get to the prey, but they have great distance to defend as well. Don't get stuck fighting battles in open turf (not one on one scrimishes- I mean ten units playing some gambit of cat and mouse); open turf battles accomplish nothing. You cannot weaken your enemy's superstructure, only cosmetically damage their efforts by destroying units which in effect only makes the loosing civ have 'wasted' its production. Then again, you suffered when you fought the enemy, so their production was well used. If you are having an easy time taking cities, keep moving. Don't wait but as long as to heal somewhat, and keep driving. Work the shock troops to oblivion (tyrannical bastard!) and replace. Use defensive units or wonders to cement your behind, and look out for diplomats and spies to cut you off from behind. Furthermore, cut off as much railway as you can without comprimising your troops' offensive strategy.

ATTACK FORMATIONS:

This is actual combat now. Firstly, if approaching a city, pounce on them if you can. Don't lumbersomely move on them with ten legions, for if their smart they'll counter. If they can't, it is still bad to slowly and predictably attack because you're wasting time that they may use to counter strike later in the game. Attack with calvalry, preferably Knights and Crusaders.

When moving to a target but out of city range, move forward in a stacked V (inverted chevron), with the two arms of the chevron forward as possible. Do this and a unit (or city you didn't know existed) may find its way into the center of the V, and be easily destroyed.

Another formation for medival war is the bar formation. Two waves of units stacked moving across terrain to the target allows the first wave to absorb a lead attack while the second line has time to retreat or encircle the attacker. Never stretch the units more than five squares wide, preferably two to four. Past five the units are so far apart that one end cannot in any way support the other end. Therefore, make this 'line' two groups that can work independantly.

Supporting the calvary: Calvary are weak on defense, and require a lead force of diplomats and spies to reek havoc and infantry to protect calvary units from being attacked. Furthermore, move onto a city from the forests or hills (unless the city is so well connected that ten or more units can be moved to the city in one turn for defense. IN this case use some units to pillage a circle around the city, and consider those units expendable. ALL units in civ are expendable, and only those cities not having massive production of money or shield, or those cities having WORKING WONDERS are not themselves expendable).

Move onto a city from the due East, West, North, or South, where the city's sight radius is merely one square. Move from the river if that option is open, however. Capture prime production or transportation units before attacking a city. If you can make the enemy attack you and destroy themselves, do this for a turn or two, but don't wait ten turns for them to find a way around you without you knowing it and then having their defenses up for the eventually attack.

THE MOST IMPORTANT PREREQUIST TO ANY SUCCESSFUL WAR:

Explore the enemy, and have an embassy. Without those, you are fighting blind and deaf.

(more later, about backstabbing, alliances, and modern war [or the lack there of])

Chow.

------------------
"Every time I hear the name "Sergent Sheets" I picture a blanket
with portraits of Patton, Einsenhower, MacArthur, and other WWII leaders."
The Brain

"One is never too old to die young." Sgt. Sheets

"The only thing greater than the United State of America is you."
FREE YYYH and Stewart Spink
We shall never forget!!

Obviously its been too cold to go out in Iowa, huh Sheets?


------------------
Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

[Sergeant Sheets]

Yes; it was negative 23 (real temp, fortunately theres no wind when its that cold, usually) on Christmas, so 25 above is like balmy.

That and I'm a fast typer.

------------------
"Every time I hear the name "Sergent Sheets" I picture a blanket
with portraits of Patton, Einsenhower, MacArthur, and other WWII leaders."
The Brain

"One is never too old to die young." Sgt. Sheets

"The only thing greater than the United State of America is you."
FREE YYYH and Stewart Spink
We shall never forget!!

Lol, over 100 degrees here this week


------------------
Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

[East Street Trader]

London chilly and grey.

I'm gonna have to study up on those formation points, Serge. I am a pretty wussy fightin' man and no footballer (what the hell is Commie football by the way?). So I fear I just move my units along the quickest line of communication and attack from where they finish up. I'll see if I can understand these flying chevrons and double line propositions and then wheel them out in the next blood lust I play. Maybe look for some snare drum music to play while the double line advances.

Current game objective is to bribe every AI city (bar the capitals) with cash from trade so that gives me the millenia or two my wise men need to digest your mighty post.

[Ming]

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 01-18-2001 12:43 PM I haven't bought MGE yet.

Then go do it... Once you have played another human, you will learn just how stupid the AI really is. It's just no fun beating up an AI, they just don't whine like a human does

[Scouse Gits]

LoL @ Ming - I've just read a posting by MWHC!!!
----------
SG(2)

[jcarkey]

Well, I nominate this to go in the GL. That being said I have a couple of questions. For the V formation, wouldn't zones of control prohibit the unit/city to get in the center like you described? You actually support cheating like you said? And as others have said, what is Communist football?
BTW I didn't realize that it got THAT cold in Iowa. At least no wind. We got cold and wind.

------------------
If Al Gore invented the Internet, then I invented the spell check- Dan Quayle

If someone doesn't agree with you, you haven't explained yourself well enough-Luther Ely Smith

She turned me into a newt...well I got better- Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

[Sergeant Sheets]

jcarkey- I rarely gets that cold, mind you. I was shocked with 23 below, and tell you the truth, the difference between 23 below and 0 isn't noticable...IT'S DAMN COLD.

Commie football- My bigoted title for what American's call 'soccer.' Actually, at aint that bad, but...

V Formation- This is an attack formation such that you are crossing undeveloped land.

When in a civilization proper, I don't rely on fancy formations; I come from the blind spots (or roads) and try to stack on the enemies production squares or better defensive squares.

You wish to situation your units where they can't see them in their city screen. Mind you there may be a city you can't see nearby, but you can't predict everything. When you actually attack a city, move from at least two different directions (North and Northwest [Northwest is not a direction from which you come from a blind spot, but once you attack they know your coming so you don't have to worry about being incognito.])

One rule to keep in mind is that never, ever used a completely fixed book of strategy. There are always instances where it pays to do what is normally the stupid thing. Do what you think is right, and you will win much of the time.


APPENDAGE TO TRADE PROVISIONS: Roads are the basis of trade; that is, roads are the most important thing in trade. Bar none. They both facilitate caravans and provide one or two trade arrows. Build them between your cities before you build roads around your citites, and be sure to always build a road to your enemy (and then defend it heavily).

I will try to add more later.

jcarkey- Zones of control: Your right in that the unit couldn't get into the center of a tight V (3 squares) but a larger V could emcompass a city or unit. Generally, I prefer advancing my troops in a lightning bolt formation to the target city versus the chevron, for the chevron can be cut in two (and then you be f'ed). Furthermore, landing troops is preferable, but it is slow and tedious to move several ships carrying two or three units. A good force is at least five or six units. Bend your formation to maximize terrain defence. No logic in preserving a pretty chevron when you can take a mountain next to a city and, oh damn, mess up the chevron formation. Use common sense, then apply my tips (although my tips are common sense as well... )

------------------
"Every time I hear the name "Sergent Sheets" I picture a blanket
with portraits of Patton, Einsenhower, MacArthur, and other WWII leaders."
The Brain

"One is never too old to die young." Sgt. Sheets

"The only thing greater than the United State of America is you."
FREE YYYH and Stewart Spink
We shall never forget!!

[La Fayette]

AH
Is it Celsius? (you must have discovered steam engine a long time ago, I suppose).

Sergeant
Please answer EST.
I'm anxious to know what commie football is.
I would be glad to reply to your huge post, but aren't you giving advice to unfortunate MP players?
I haven't bought MGE yet.

[Blaupanzer]

If sense were common, we'd have no wars. So, a posting recommending what one would do if one had "common sense" is always refreshing.

[Sergeant Sheets]

Oh, Blaupanzer, stick it up your ass.

------------------
"Every time I hear the name "Sergent Sheets" I picture a blanket
with portraits of Patton, Einsenhower, MacArthur, and other WWII leaders."
The Brain

"One is never too old to die young." Sgt. Sheets

"The only thing greater than the United State of America is you."
FREE YYYH and Stewart Spink
We shall never forget!!

[Sergeant Sheets]

Okay, more info about War:

Combat repair tactics:

A unit wins the battle but looses an arm. Do you work it to death or sleep it till it recovers? Usually in SP games I simply let the unit sleep about two squares back from the action and wait for it to recover before it gets back in the thick. In MP the equation is four fold different.

1. The human opponent knows your unit is comprimised, for he watched it get diminished while his was killed. If that human is smart he would attack those lone units that are weak. You must then decide to cover them or let them fend for themselves. This does not include the possibility of having the unit bribed, and for those purposes you may wish to stack the unit.

2. Do you need the unit, or is it expendable? If the unit represents technology you both share as well as something that because of its location or ability is not a treat to you, AND your force is so large that trying to save it would be pointless, then by all means work it to death. But if you are like me, try to get any and all units back away from action, or try a group of weakened units and attack something. They are replacable, but you shouldn't merely waste them.

3. Stacking. This is probably the most important topic about units and weakness or strength. Do not stack, if possible, weak with weak and strong with strong. It is not a matter of an over looked combat advantage caveat, but rather common sense: If you have four units and the city you are attacking just got a diplomat, thusly you have to stack, why would you want to stack to weak units with each other and two strong units with each other? If the strong stack is destroyed, you got two weak units left over. Instead move one weak with a strong and if one stack is destroyed, you still have one strong unit to cover the flank of the weak unit are you retreat (or boldly press forward). Also, if you must stack weak units with weak units, do it on defensive terrain, even if that takes them a bit out of the action. One of the best jobs for a weak unit or stack of weaks is to take a mine or forest that is two squares from the city square, and hold it. This takes production from the attacked city and gives the weak unit time to recover, for it is away from the fray.

4. Rush builds and other. Disband the weakest units if you need shields. No denominator between a red unit and a green unit for shields given when disbanded. Also, use weak units to blunder roadways away from a city, cutting off quick reinforcements. This makes it so that the weak unit is the first to die when the wave of the enemy troops comes. Three to five legions will kill any whole or damaged knight, so why not make it a red knight?


------------------
"Every time I hear the name "Sergent Sheets" I picture a blanket
with portraits of Patton, Einsenhower, MacArthur, and other WWII leaders."
The Brain

"One is never too old to die young." Sgt. Sheets

"The only thing greater than the United State of America is you."
FREE YYYH and Stewart Spink
We shall never forget!!

[Blaupanzer]

Actually meant my input to be positive. I like this post.

Thanks Sergeant, you really have good tips here for us war-mongers! For what you told us letting injured units to heal in defensive terrain is good too (if you need to siege a well defenced city).

Things get easier if you can capture a city and move all your weak units there. They get repaired there much quicker than in open terrain. And better yet, I usually rushbuild barracks in a conquered city to get all weak units to full power in one turn. Of course, if city walls are destroyed, rushbuilding them is 1. priority.

I also like to use all those AI built fortresses to my advantage, stacking a couple of good defencing units to break his reinforce routes and let them take the blows of counter-attacks to my newly conquered city.

In my army there are often two settlers/engineers as well to build roads/railroads to assist my cannon/artilleries/howies next to the city wall with preferable full movement points left. And when my engineers/offensive units have done their work I stack a good defensive units with them hoping that they all survive the possible counter-attack.
[This message has been edited by Marko_Polo (edited January 30, 2001).]

[Sergeant Sheets]

Personally, Marco, I have never seen the reasoning to justify rush building walls in SP games. The AI rarely launches a counter attack worth a dribbling piss; in MP, however, a walled civilization makes counter-conquest harder, and puts the emphasis on subversion. I personally think walls should be costlier than they are in the game, especially in MP, but life it too short to make the rules all the way you like it...

About engineers:

I like a nice leading force of engineers, too, though I like to attack from the sea and take one prime city; I rarely go by land because its so slow! Building the infrastructure to get to an enemy is costly, but if you can do so in MP successfully and without your enemy knowing you are building right up to his back door, then an invasion is much easier to execute.

I also like how the AI always builds a web of railroads all over their civ. I can go halfway around the planet with 19th century technology, in one turn.

------------------
"Every time I hear the name "Sergent Sheets" I picture a blanket
with portraits of Patton, Einsenhower, MacArthur, and other WWII leaders."
The Brain

"One is never too old to die young." Sgt. Sheets

"The only thing greater than the United State of America is you."
FREE YYYH and Stewart Spink
We shall never forget!!

quote: Originally posted by Sergeant Sheets on 01-31-2001 10:15 PM I have never seen the reasoning to justify rush building walls in SP games. The AI rarely launches a counter attack worth a dribbling piss;

Yup, you are actually right about this which is sad.. the lack of counter-attacks makes conquering AI too easy! I usually build city walls to my first few conquered city in a strong big empire but in fact that really isn't necessary.

Rushbuilding barracks on the other hand (maybe disbanding an obsotele unit first in city to make it much cheaper) is a good strategy IMO. Makes the conquering much quicker that way.

[La Fayette]

About counter attack
shall I tell you what happened to me the first time I played at deity level?
I was Russian and strong, but there was a ridge of solid mountains between the mongolian empire and my own territory. Lots of hard fighting, howitzers against fortresses on top of the mountain, hard bombing and the like... Then comes the plain, a fat mongolian city size 15 or so. I take it, stack 12 or 15 units inside, hoping to take next fat city next turn. Then comes a young man with a bowler hat (smiling, I would swear he was smiling) and buys the city back.
OK, I was strong. I take back city #1 + city #2. A mix of 20 howitzers and armors stacked here and there. Then come 2 (smiling, I would swear they were smiling) young men with bowler hats...
I won, later on, but I remember it as if it were yesterday.

You're an idiot seargent. I've never heard such bull**** in my life.

[La Fayette]

EP
Topics on this forum should be DISCUSSED.
Posting insults leads to NOWHERE.
If you wish to discuss something sergeant has written, please do it.
If you wish to insult him, please don't do it (or at least use his private message box).




------------------
aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental