Tech path priority after Monarchy

Six Thousand Year Old Man · January 31, 2001, 14:45

After Monarchy, I used to rush to Philosophy to get that free tech. These days, I really like to get Wonders early, so I try for Trade instead. Caravans help me rush-buy the really key early wonders (Colossus, HG, sometimes Pyramids). Plus, getting some trade routes in place early can help the cash flow situation.

On the other hand, Philosophy requires Literacy which is right on the path to Republic... and once I have HG, I always want to switch to Republic...

Decisions, decisions! After Republic, I head for Monotheism, and then Invention (Leos), and then Gunpowder to make my cities relatively secure.

The one route I avoid is the Warrior Code/Feudalism/Chivalry path - like most others here do, I bet

And unless I'm stuck on an island (I usually play on large/continents maps), I can get away with not going the Map Making/Seafaring/Navigation route for a while.

STYOM

drake · January 31, 2001, 14:56

quote:

The one route I avoid is the Warrior Code/Feudalism/Chivalry path - like most others here do, I bet

Actually, this route is very important to my style (minus chivalry), because i go right after theology and bachs cathedral. Besides the obvious advantage of having one of the best happiness wonders, it cancels someone elses oracle (which i try to never have to build).

My #1 priority after monarchy is trade....get those camels out in a hurry and use them to gain a good lead on the rest of the field.

Theben · January 31, 2001, 15:34

I admit I'm still hooked on getting Philosophy after Monarchy- I HATE it when an AI civ gets it 1st! Since both Writing and Mysticism are on this route (important for the reasons EST mentions), and that Literacy is needed for Repubic, I don't consider it a wasted trip. I almost always take Mapmaking as my freebie (which you & the AI need in order to trade maps).
Lately I've been reconsidering, wondering if I should head for Trade a lot earlier. Or maybe straight to Monotheism after Monarchy. I'm even working on a strategy involving the Pyramids so Masonry, which I used to ignore for a while, is coming a lot earlier. Decisions, decisions.

As for that war/feu/chi route, well I'm no fan of warrior code or a big one of chivalry, but I am a Sun Tzu's fan bigtime, and I much prefer veteran pikemen over non-vet phalanxes. So gimmee Feudalism ASAP!

rixxe · January 31, 2001, 15:46

I think it depends on 3 factors:

1. the conditions of victory;

- If it's BH i'll take war techs first, if its space conquest, philosohy is the choice

2. The level

- If i play in prince level, i know i can get philosophy before AI, but in deity, it's different

3. THe free startin' sciences

Six Thousand Year Old Man · January 31, 2001, 16:59

quote:

Originally posted by Theben on 01-31-2001 02:34 PM
I almost always take Mapmaking as my freebie (which you & the AI need in order to trade maps).

As for that war/feu/chi route, well I'm no fan of warrior code or a big one of chivalry, but I am a Sun Tzu's fan bigtime, and I much prefer veteran pikemen over non-vet phalanxes. So gimmee Feudalism ASAP!

I forgot about the ability to trade maps that comes with Mapmaking... but in my games, it seems the AI is always reluctant to trade maps! If I played on a smaller board (and ran into the AI civs sooner) or one that wasn't mainly continents, I'd probably take MM sooner.

As for pikemen versus phalanxes... I'd prefer pikes over phalanxes too, but I'd rather make a beeline for Gunpowder, and get there a few turns sooner.

The one thing I really admire about CivII is how each of us can probably justify *any* tech path based on their own individual advantages and our game styles. Same goes for wonders (except Eiffel Tower!).

STYOM

Chris 62 · January 31, 2001, 17:35

After Monarchy, I usally go for Literacy, and also like to get Philosophy, since an added bonus on this trail is Mysticism, so I can get Astronomy, as I like to have the Copernicus's Observatory. I try to avoid conflict atleast until the Industrial Revolution, But this is difficult(to say the least), at higher levels. I always try the path of knowledge(if I want conflict, I will play one the many fine scenarios on the net), but conquest often becomes neccesary if only to thwart unruly civs bent on conquest or intimidation. I do hope a more peaceful alternative is in civ-3, as being sneaked attacked by those bloody french for the hundredth time is quite tiresome at times. Other times boldface conquest is the order of the day. I hope we have more of a choice in the next version.

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All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

Theben · January 31, 2001, 19:03

quote:

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man on 01-31-2001 03:59 PM
I forgot about the ability to trade maps that comes with Mapmaking... but in my games, it seems the AI is always reluctant to trade maps! If I played on a smaller board (and ran into the AI civs sooner) or one that wasn't mainly continents, I'd probably take MM sooner.

The AI will trade with you if you your relations are worshipful, or even enthusiastic sometimes. If you are allied they almost always trade maps with you. I find it useful since I invariably play on large maps-saves some exploration time.

quote:

As for pikemen versus phalanxes... I'd prefer pikes over phalanxes too, but I'd rather make a beeline for Gunpowder, and get there a few turns sooner.

Well like I said a like Sun Tzu's; no, I LOVE Sun Tzu's! It saves me the headache of micromanaging my cities so that I must send units from my "barracks" cities all over creation, plus isolated &/or new cities build vets also. In addition, air & sea units benefits if they win their 1st combat by automatically becoming veteran. That's why I troll coastlines with frigates & ironclads, looking for settlers and explorers for easy kills and instant vet status before hunting the big game.

Gunpowder's nice, but my mod tends to push it back a bit in discovery time so no real "beeline" is available.

Scouse Gits · January 31, 2001, 20:02

EST - Good question!

I usually play large or giga maps so I place a high priority on movement and logistics.

Assuming no starting techs:

Monarchy techs, with Horseback Riding as the "other" one you have to research prior to your coronation. This is mainly for Barb protection and in the hope of 150 gold coins.

After Monarchy: Pottery (HG)
Currency or Map Making
Trade (Marco) - essential for tech trading and maps. I use MPE to obtain techs on the way to Navigation. With Magellan's and Caravels moving 5, carrying 3 caravans, you have a huge early financial and scientific edge during the BC years. I usually combine this with an ICS approach that offers options for conquest or occasionally AC.

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SG(2)

War4ever · January 31, 2001, 20:31

After Monarchy..... trade , then writing, Philosophy, mono.invention.... repub, demo, then feudal route.... if by land. I like leos before suns.... although if i get bogged down by science i switch it up.

Obviously with an island start..... i will get mapmaking as a priority and rule the seas with lighthouse and magellens.

its so easy to get a leg up on the ai..... only on a rare occassion do they frustrate me to the point where i want to put their heads on a pike.... ususally i am calm as i KNOW i am going to add to my "headhunters" collection eventually.... plus i like sending my young men to the slaughter LOL

I try to build as few wonders as possible now ... letting the ai build them so i can take them from them.
Nothing more gratifying than relieving the ai of its prized possesions.

Still..... a raging warmongering tribe left to its own devices.... can be like a mosquito flying around your head at night... you hear the buzzing but the thing is so stupd it doesn't know when it is beaten

Bereta_Eder · January 31, 2001, 20:38

quote:

<font size=1>Originally posted by East Street Trader on 01-31-2001 12:46 PM</font>
Like everyone else my early tech path and tech trading is dominated by the compulsion to get crowned.

LOL EST

Ahem, I shalt not abide by thy laws me lord but by my own.

emm, in other words, I'd prefer to say (instead of what comes after monarchy) that for as long as I remember, my first in EVERY SINGLE GAME advances are Alphabet (if I don't already have it) and writing.

After those it's open game altough Monarchy is a top priority. After that still, the game needs direct me.

There are two exception though. After a while I do plan to achieve Monotheism fast and later on Electronics.

Michaelangelo Chapel and Hoover Dam are so vital to my way of playing that I have been known to strip down my whole civ in order to get them. There were occasions that I beat the AI only by one turn. And there was one time that I sold nearly everything that was for sale in my civ in order to build the wonders first.

Recently I chase Tactics as well for those funny guys in yellow costumes as I can more or less secure my perfectionist state early on.
[This message has been edited by paiktis22 (edited January 31, 2001).]

East Street Trader · February 1, 2001, 01:46

Like everyone else my early tech path and tech trading is dominated by the compulsion to get crowned.

Previously, once Monarchy has been achieved I have thereafter been pulled in several different tech path directions. No surprise that Currency then Trade has had strong attractions. Map Making, bringing with it the ability to build a trireme, is always desirable and can be absolutely vital. I build a temple in my capital and may build others too so maybe I should go for Mysticism to maximise their value and may then lead on to joining in the race for the free tech which Philosophy brings. And there are wonders to consider, and the desire for the comfort of the phalanx's defensive qualities.

But, in fact, I have latterly been sucumbing to the blandishments of my political adviser and researching the wonders of Writing as the next priority.

It is not so much that I want her to get her hooks into other nations straight away, but rather the measure of security against the barbarian hordes which the first diplo brings, together with the opportunities which the arrival of those self same barbs confer when the doubty diplo is in your camp.

I played a game the other day when I got some cash early and was then able to bribe a barb trireme incredibly early on. The rapid exploration this allowed was decisive. My path to Monarchy was rapid when I got the chance to trade for one of the critical techs (which also knocked out the need to research a non Monarchy tech) and I picked up an early advanced tribe (I have little doubt that there is a weighting in favour of that outcome for the first grassland/plains hut tipped on any new landmass).

But the main benefit is simply that the risk of the early loss to an unlucky barb incursion is pretty well eliminated plus you get to plan hut tipping better. You can leave nearby huts until they can be tipped with the diplo handy to mop up a barb outcome.

I suspect that this approach is working so well for me that the only time I'm going to delay Writing in the future is when Map Making is of overriding importance. And even then Writing is going to come next.

Luckily, so far the option always seems available, even after an unwanted Warrior Code.

What is your priority after Monarchy, and why?

Rufus T. Firefly · February 1, 2001, 07:29

Great question! I'd been thinking about asking this myself.

I tend to play as a perfectionist democracy headed for AC, and put a lot of emphasis on certain woders. Assuming no techs; I first research Bronze Working, for Phalanxes and for an early start on the Colossus. Then I make a beeline for monarchy. Then it's currency, trade, pottery (for HG), and then I head for Philosophy, taking Astronomy-based techs on turns I'm forced to detour. After Philosophy, it's Astronomy, then Monotheism, Invention, Democracy, Economics, and finally the Theory of Gravity (usually acquired before Econ, actually, as a detour tech), building all of the associated wonders except SoL. After that, it depends on my position in the world.

Scouse Gits · February 1, 2001, 08:26

Strange --- no advocates of early Republic?
Ribannah where are you ??

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

Kitana · February 1, 2001, 15:30

First I go for Bronze Working for Collossus. Then I head for Astronomy as soon as possible to get Copernicus' Observatory and then for Theory of Gravity for Issac Newton's College. After that I go for Invention.

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Kitana
Shogun of the Japanese

Chris 62 · February 1, 2001, 17:42

quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 02-01-2001 07:26 AM
Strange --- no advocates of early Republic?

I try to stay away from the Republic if my science city is working correctly. The shields lost for defense and exploration under early republics can be a drain on wonder building. And also, there is always some troublsome tribe that must be destroyed, and the senate can always be counted on to prematurly end the war when I'm on the verge of total victory, leaving me set up for the treaty breaking sneak attack that is sure to follow! After industrialization, a republic or democracy will be my gov, but I try to avoid it early, as the revolts and unhappiness can be quite tiresome.

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All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

Cyclotron · February 1, 2001, 20:15

I am an advocate of early republic... I find that on the harder difficulty levels it is almost required to keep up with AI tech. The loss in production can be made up for with a few mines, and the cash gained by republics makes wonder-building easy (rush build caravans for that extra kick). My strategy, however, is almost always economic; I find very little problems in Civ2 that money can't solve. After monarchy, I get trade, then go for republic, banking, and gunpowder. I usually don't worry about ships until the mid game (something I should probably try to improve on).

East Street Trader · February 1, 2001, 20:30

Ships and trade go hand in hand, Cyclotron.

And an early trireme does wonders for exploration, exposing a juicy whale or two around your coastal cities and grabbing more than your fair share of huts -often makes tipping safer and/or more profitable too.

Stick an early dip into an early trireme and he may send you back a little stream of units from the fair land of "none".

Not to mention an advanced tribe or two ready to seed a second/third landmass before the A1 is in any shape to stunt your growth in the locality.

Pretty much my next priority after getting the first few cities down, attending my coronation and building a diplo is getting that trireme out there.

And then you've made a start towards a ship chain (if your mores allow you such things).

Cyclotron · February 2, 2001, 01:23

I didn't say I never put ships out... I do try to reaveal all city sea radius squares I can. I prefer land combat, however... I find it is less costly and less time consuming to simply trade and explore by land. It's just a medium I am more comfortable in until the more substantial ships appear.

Scouse Gits · February 2, 2001, 07:31

Try a few early boats! Trade bonuses are greater when you land caravans on other continents. Hut hunting is safer by sea. When the barbs appear just pop the explorer back on the ship.

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SG(2)

Carolus Rex · February 2, 2001, 08:48

quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 02-01-2001 07:26 AM
Strange --- no advocates of early Republic?

Ok, I'll bite!

I like early republic a lot. It can be very powerful, but is IMHO especially effective under certain conditions (maybe even requirements for success in MP?):

- double production. One of the major drawbacks of republic, the support penalty, vanishes. Happiness is also easier to keep in check with Elvis as your cities still can produce decent amounts of resources (of all kinds) despite the King. Also makes celebrations easier to achieve (important, but often forgotten).

- dificulty level. At king you can pull it off without happy wonders.

- map size. The larger, the better. Early republic is a vulnerable strategy in the early game, even with double production. If an aggressive warmonger finds you fast it's probably going to be difficult to survive.

- world settings. Again, settings that make early contact more difficult are probably a good thing. Archipelago instead of large landmasses, many small continents instead of one large etc.

- the opposition. Some people I play all go for early rep. All players in the game know this, we leave each other alone and are not so worried about being attacked early. These are growing games with warfare later in the game. Other players are warmongers and will start looking for me right away. They want short, intense games featuring early warfare. Then monarchy first may be a better choice.

- variety is more fun. Always playing the same way gets pretty boring, it's nice with a change every now and then.

Carolus

Carolus Rex · February 2, 2001, 09:03

About the tech path...

For the moment, after I have rep or monarchy I usually go for BW, Currency and Trade to get caravans. After that it's pretty open, I'm not as focused on the tech path as I should be.

Either pottery for HG or, if I suspect I'm coming in second on that one, straight for mono. Sometimes I go for masonry, construction etc to get LW. I like LH a lot, but map making seems to be found more often in the huts than any other tech (except warrior code!) and I often pick it up from one (unless I know the world has lots of water).

What the opponent does matters too...

Carolus

Carolus Rex · February 2, 2001, 09:26

Oh, one more thing!

- barb level: the lower the better for early republic.

So to summarise the extremes:

- If it's 1x1x, deity level, small map, raging hordes against DaveV I go for monarchy first, then trade and pottery or the masonry route.

- If it's 1x2x, king level, normal map, restless tribes against Carnide it's early republic, mono and philo. No defending units in the cities (at all!) and no GW.

Anything in between depends (plus the fun of change)...

Carolus

East Street Trader · February 2, 2001, 09:38

quote:

Originally posted by Carolus Rex on 02-02-2001 08:26 AM
(at all!)

Now that is taking a strat to the max!

Edward · February 2, 2001, 14:19

First a warning - I play single player, small map (it's all my poor playstation can handle), peaceful spaceship victory, deity.

My early priorities are:

1) Monarchy - I play as an expansionist, claiming land via settling cities. Republican settlers are way to hungry for food to have an early expanding Republic.

2) Trade - for quick wonder building via caravans

3) Colossus - for super science city

4) Hanging Gardens - to keep expanding until Michaelangelo's Chapel comes along.

5) Copernicus's Observatory - again SSC

*) Philosophy if the AI hasn't already gotten it. I've learned to swallow my pride and let the Golden Age of Enlightenment happen elsewhere.

6) Michaelangelo's Chapel - to keep my expanding tribe happy

My small maps mean boats are not too much of an issue and that trading maps with the AI is not quite as powerful. Marco Polo's Embassy is less important too.

Since I'm an expansionist with many cities, I have no improvements unless they're absolutely vital - too much upkeep! Building settlers in unhappy cities can delay my temple needs for a long time - so mysticism is only used as a step to Copernicus's Observatory.

Since I try and remain peaceful, I give almost no consideration to my military. All my units are green unless vetted by battle. Sun Tzu's War Academy would only eliminate my ability to make the phalanx step while rush buying caravans.

As Six Thousand Year Old Man said, any tech path is viable.

DaveV · February 2, 2001, 16:27

quote:

Originally posted by Edward on 02-02-2001 01:19 PM
My small maps mean ... Marco Polo's Embassy is less important too.

A suggestion: try, just once, building MPE as your very first wonder. You'll have immediate contact with all the AIs, and will usually find them with substantial treasury balances. Odds are good on a small map that most or all of the AIs share your continent; if you've been expanding, I mean really expanding, you'll be supreme and the AIs will give you most of their cash. This has the twofold effect of curtailing the AIs' growth and probably giving you enough money to rushbuy HG and Colossus. As a bonus, you can frequently trade techs with the AIs just before demanding tribute.

Some consider this cheating, because it makes things just toooo easy...

Edward · February 2, 2001, 19:20

Thanks, DaveV.

While I'm usually relatively powerful compared to the AI civs, I generally don't demand tribute. Only do so in rare occasions when I really need the cash to say rush a wonder or buy back a city. Guess it's just my peaceful nature.

Marco Polo's Embassy would give one the chance to demand tribute from AI civs that you haven't even seen yet - so no fear of retaliation. I'll have to try demanding tribute my next game.

Ribannah · February 3, 2001, 20:58

quote:

Originally posted by Theben on 01-31-2001 02:34 PM
I admit I'm still hooked on getting Philosophy after Monarchy- I HATE it when an AI civ gets it 1st!

Staying away from Philosophy until you need it usually gives better results. If you're still the one to get it, you have a more expensive tech for free than if you had it earlier. If the AI gets the free tech, you can often trade for BOTH philosophy and that free tech, so you'll be even better off.

The same is true about Darwin's Voyage: having an AI tribe build it can occasionally be very profitable.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

Chainsaw · February 4, 2001, 14:03

quote:

Originally posted by DaveV on 02-02-2001 03:27 PM
A suggestion: try, just once, building MPE as your very first wonder.

MPE can be also very useful playing Bloodlust. The only thingf you still need is Map Making. Then you go to every AI, give them some early techs to make them think you`re a nice guy and then easily find out where your next prey is hiding. Eliminates the long & annoying search on medium or big maps.

Chainsaw · February 4, 2001, 14:03

quote:

Originally posted by DaveV on 02-02-2001 03:27 PM
A suggestion: try, just once, building MPE as your very first wonder.

MPE can be also very useful playing Bloodlust. The only thing you additonally need is Map Making. Then you go to every AI, give them some early techs to make them think you`re a nice guy and then easily find out where your next prey is hiding. Eliminates the long & annoying search on medium or big maps.

February 10, 2001, 18:11

OK, I think everyone knows that there's no ultimate tech path... but I'm sure after discussing major cases and situations, there should be quite a few different "Top Tech Strategies" or so given by the thinkers among you... (with the most propable playing situations (map, AI, etc.))

Well, are those going to be included in the Great Library or somewhere else but on a thread that will disappear soon?