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Old February 15, 2001, 23:30   #1
Hermann the Lombard
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ICS Midlife Crisis
ICS Midlife Crisis

I confess I'm a perfectionist at heart, but sometimes my brain hurts and I just want to go beat up my neighbors. Then ICS is just the thing, and on a small map it produces a juggernaut that the AI simply can't cope with, even at Deity level. I had the principles down pretty well, and now DaveV's document clarifies things nicely.

But now I'm trying it on a large map (Deity, Raging Hordes, 7 Civs, No Restarts). The first few millenia went fine, but I find I'm floundering in the middle game. Here's the situation:

I'm on a small, dryish continent (or very large island), now saturated with ICS cities. Correction: as I approached 24 cities on that continent, the remaining wilderness (devoid of useful specials) seemed like a waste of settlers. To the north is a large island where I found an advanced tribe and a river long enough for 5 or 6 ICS-style cities (the longest river "at home" was only 4 or 5 squares long).

To the West lie the Zulus, my first contact, and remarkably peaceful (since we didn't share a land border). Eventually I found the Russians to the Southeast, and the Aztecs in the far Southwest. I know that the Persians and Vikings lie east and farther east, across oceans that ate several frustrated trireme captains. [The whole world appears to consist of islands and small continents.] The Sioux were destroyed by the Persians.

The tactical situation is that I have HG, LEO & Gunpowder, and started my campaign against the Zulus. They are the easiest to reach AND the proud builders of the Lighthouse--called for by the ghosts of my lost captains--and MPE (for intel on the "missing" nations). So now I have those two wonders. After Gunpowder, I had no choices on the road to Democracy, so I'm researching Feudalism with an eye toward upgrading my abundant horsemen to knights.

Here are the problems:

1. Every time I found (or take) a city, three or four existing cities go into civil disorder. Many cities are empty, because a garrison causes them to riot. So every time one of these cities completes a military unit, the city riots. There's a fine line between keeping the city productive and keeping the city un-reproductive (riot when they grow to size 3).

2. I have a lot of under-employed settlers. The riot factor makes me reluctant to just build more cities on the home continent. So I'm mining to get more shields, and building forts to house the military units that aren't welcome in the cities. Since I already have too many settlers, it's doubly hard to keep the cities from growing.

3. My "insular" homeland makes it hard to bring my military to bear. I need lots and lots of triremes, first for exploration and then for sealift capacity.

4. Most discussions of ICS assume that there will be plenty of money, but I never have much. Too many rush-buys (or at least smoothing out odd numbers of shields) and too many bribes, first of barbs and now of Zulus.

4. Research is frustratingly slow (I'm used to OCC and SSC rates; here I just have a couple of Size-5 micromanagement centers to keep science ticking over).

5. I made a tactical error, getting Gunpowder before bribing MPE away from the Zulus. Now no one wants to trade with me unless I start by giving them Gunpowder, and I'm reluctant to give up that tech edge.

6. I keep finding Advanced Tribes in remote parts of the globe. They are of almost no benefit (typically one beaker and one coin, with the rest lost to corruption). These are ripe for the plucking by enemies jealous of saltpeter. It's a pity I can't build a trireme and *then* disband via Settler. Should I disband just to remove the targets?

So, I guess I'm looking for advice on the ICS middle game. What's the best way to handle things once there are more than 24 cities? I realize that the watery world intensifies the problem. How do you make the transfer from "Pure ICS" to something else? I could start disbanding some of the interstitial cities to let the better sites grow, but is 24 (or 36) cities too few for this?

-- Hermann
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Old February 16, 2001, 03:36   #2
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Yes I know the problems, having played most of my Civ on Large maps!

Advice on a specific game is very hard without the whole picture. (If you want to send a game save PM me first)

My early adventures with ICS on a big and watery world were very much the same as your situation. To stop the mid-game crisis try the following: (ICS Trade Sleaze)

The overall objective is to trade furiously - initially with your own cities. The small ICS cities send caravans to the capital for either wonders or trade, then later they go overseas to AI trading partner(s).
The capital does not build caravans except for wonders until you can send them to a different continent. Don't squander the trade routes of your best city!

1) Monarchy - researching Pottery as the non-Monarchy tech.
Then you must head for Trade. Try and pick up Horseback Riding on the way if stuck for a research choice. Defend with horsemen - they kill bad guys before they get too close! Forget the Phalanx - use Warriors for martial law.
Then you follow the Navigation path. For early trade overseas you must have Caravels and Magellan.
Eventually you want Democracy for SoL so you have a choice of government. Communism is good as it keeps an AC option open.

2) Allow your capital to grow - so don't overlap your cities too much in this area. Unlike pure ICS you are allowed improvements here. An early Library is useful, sometimes funded by a lucky kill of a Barb King! ICS the rest of the cities, but keep an eye on a possible "Barracks" city. A high shield location where you churn out some vet horsemen for hard hitting. Found cities as fast as possible. After 6 are down have one settler begin the road network. The first job of the early cities is to build settlers after securing martial law. As the empire starts to spread from the capital, the original half dozen cities should begin caravan production for wonders. These towns are nearer to the capital so travelling time is at a minimum. The outer/newer cities continue to grind out settlers.

3) Build the Gardens in you capital then Colossus. (You must start the Gardens early - so no settlers are built here) This gives you a celebrating trade rich centre. Then put in MPE. At this point be careful! On pressing F3 you will see a mixture of attitudes towards you. Try and concentrate on those nations who are neutral or better. If the Carthaginians are hostile forget them for the time. There is no point having a war until you are ready for fighting. Civilised people like the Babylonians are perfect trading partners. Have a look at the white techs in each window. Consider what you need for the path to Navigation. Avoid being seduced by Polytheism and Warrior Code. You are looking for useful things like Map Making, Seafaring and Mathematics. You must avoid having superfluous science as it slows down the progress to Navigation. With friendly powers give techs away for maps. Make sure you give away Monarchy and if you have it The Republic. It is in your interests that possible trading partners have the best form of government available, as this enhances caravan bonuses. If the game is going well consider building Copernicus (6 caravans) in the capital to add thrust to the research. At Navigation - build Magellan, which doesn't have to built in the capital.

4) Now the serious trading starts. Divert all trade caravans into caravels. By now you should have two or three sets of maps. Identify a couple of locations that can be used as ports nearest to the intended destinations for caravans. If there are no cities there build them. I do create ship chains were necessary and viable. Some may consider this a cheat - I don't! (It's quite skilful to set one up that works well) The trading of commodities in Civ2 is configured in a messy and ungainly way. Obviously your bonuses are greater for demanded goods so you must be aware of the information in F5. However, to avoid going mad, I tend to micromanage only freight from the capital or larger cities. After a while you tend to know the useful commodities. In most games Silk and Dye are usually frequently in demand. The items like Salt, Beads and Cloth have a diminishing demand as the game progresses. Hides is a funny one! It is often a repeating demand in some cities.

The early leap to swamping an unsuspecting world with freight provides money and science. (The more ICS cities you have - the more caravans you can build) The trading cuts in at the time when the advances become harder to attain. Instead of a mid-game crisis it is the key to an early win. (My best to date is 1520 (AC) but that was a fantastic start with a repeating silk supply in the capital and a few tasty AI towns that kept demanding the stuff)

------------

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Old February 16, 2001, 09:05   #3
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Beautiful exposition SG(2).

Dammy, I may even have to give this loathesome ICS stuff a go, just for the pleasure of following your blueprint.

Now, if I can explain my own midlife crisis as well as Hermann, will you give me the answers to those problems too?
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Old February 16, 2001, 11:30   #4
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2. Don't worry about that, I have the same problem. Find ANY space to build a city. If you have no room, build ships to carry them overseas. If that option is unavailable, then make some non-irrigation work. This will keep the cities from revolting due to size. Keep making settlers!

3. You have time being on an island to build up.

4. Try to avoid rush-builds or bribes unless necessary. They aren't always good in the grand scheme of things.

4.(Or your second 4) If you have enough cities then it shouldn't take that long. I'm currently playing an ICS game where I have 22 cities. Not a single city is making more than 3 science beakers a turn. It takes 8 turns to reserch a tech in 325 B.C. I do understand that that might seem like a lot to a person who relies on an SSC. But the pace can and probably will pick up.

5. Ouch! Make sure that the techs that you wan't are really necessary. If they won't help you out, or they're ending techs, don't do it. But if it is some important tech, then think about it. You might be in a position where giving gunpowder will help you more than it will hurt you.

6. No. Don't disband it. Any science or money is a step. Defend it lightly at first. If you can make settlers to form from those cities, all the better! If you can start a 5 or 6 citiy web around it then you don't have to worry about to little defense. And if it is really remote or on an ice cap then it probably won't grow enough or be acessable and the enemy won't value it very highly.


I hope that helped.

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Old February 16, 2001, 11:48   #5
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quote:

<font size=1>Originally posted by East Street Trader on 02-16-2001 08:05 AM</font>

Now, if I can explain my own midlife crisis as well as Hermann, will you give me the answers to those problems too?


And I thought you were like me! Got all that stuff behind you at 15.

------------

SG(2)


[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited February 16, 2001).]
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Old February 16, 2001, 14:29   #6
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1. I've always been able to keep a size two city happy with HG and either one or two units for martial law. At the end of your turn, it's worth scrolling through all your cities (open one city, then press and hold down or up arrow until you've passed through all cities) and checking the F4 screen. Make the necessary adjustments to any rioting cities (usually requires moving out the second unit). Size three cities need Elvis to keep them happpy.

3. If I have a narrow channel between two landmasses, I can move lots of units over by using one or more ferryboats. Build a city on each side of the channel, then move boats between the cities, carrying units to the landmass where you want them.

4a. I usually kill enemy units instead of bribing them.

4b. That's because you stopped building cities. It's also a good idea to build some cities on trade specials (wine, gold, spice, furs, ivory, gems). More cities = more arrows = more science.

6. Hold out till communism or fundie, and your corruption in those far-away cities will plummet.
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Old February 16, 2001, 14:37   #7
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quote:

Originally posted by East Street Trader on 02-16-2001 08:05 AM
Beautiful exposition SG(2).

Dammy, I may even have to give this loathesome ICS stuff a go, just for the pleasure of following your blueprint.


Loathesome ICS??? While I didn't have quite that bad an impression of it, once I started giving it a try on a regular basis it wasn't half bad. While some may think it's cheating, I'll take any advantage I can find with MGE.

As to Hermann's original questions:

1) Even with HG, I will not hesitate to build a temple when necessary. They'll come in quite handy after Railroad. In the meantime, Elvis lives!

2) Is everything irrigated? While this might seem to defeat one of the underlying principals of ICS, I don't mind growing cities. (See #1)

3) Be patient.

4) In conjunction with #6, are you losing every advanced tribe? If not, start another ICS colony.

5) Amen, brother!

All in all, I'd say you're doing fine.

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Old February 16, 2001, 17:26   #8
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Hermann the Lombard,

I didn't see Michaelangelo's Chapel on your wonder list. You might want to research Monotheism and build it. It could be the edge you need to keep cities with one unit from rioting. I build it before Leonardo's Workshop. It also puts you one tech away from J.S. Bach's Cathedral if you're really hurting.
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Old February 16, 2001, 21:33   #9
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quote:

Originally posted by kcbob on 02-16-2001 01:37 PM

2) Is everything irrigated? While this might seem to defeat one of the underlying principals of ICS, I don't mind growing cities. (See #1)




Shame on you! That even makes the problem of unhappiness even worse. If you get to that point, then I would just disband all of those settlers and help make a wonder that will help you out.


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Old February 17, 2001, 12:34   #10
Hermann the Lombard
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Thanks to all!

SG1: The ICS Trade Sleaze sounds powerful. On a small map, the ICS military juggernaut is sufficient, but on a large map, this sounds good. It might be a trifle hard--or a trifle late--to change course in mid-game (AD980, now).
1) I went for Monarchy and then Trade; I started with horses. I built all Warriors and Horsemen and Diplos, no Phalanxes (maybe one, rushbuilt in the face of oncoming barbs), but I went for LEO not Navigation, so now I have oodles of Musketeers. However, I just took Seafaring from the Russians (gee, they sneak attacked me just because I built a fortress on a mountain adjacent to Moscow; some people are SO touchy!!!). Once I finish Chivalry I'll go for Navigation & Magellan, then turn back toward Democracy.
2+) I wonder if switching this late would work? (If you really want to see the saved game, I'll send it Monday night or Tuesday.)

JC: 2) OK, I guess the perfectionist in me loathes building cities where there is nothing but wilderness (meaning plains and hills and mountains with no specials).
3) Well, I did, and the Zulus are toast(ing). I accidentally found a stray Zulu city on a distant island; luckily I was able to kill it.
4) Rush buying and bribes can be a bad habit.
4.2) By now I have over 40 cities, 89 beakers, 38 income (and 8 total cost), 11 turns per discovery, slowing slowly.
5) Well, Chivalry seems necessary, but I'm almost there now (5 turns or so)
6) Um...if I build a city web then THOSE cities are vulnerable...but not once they all spit out a defender or two, I suppose.

DaveV: Ah, the ICS Master's Voice!
1) I frequently find riot with one or two units for martial law, but I'm often OK with zero (and thanks for that tip). But what works one turn may fail the next, when I add a city or three. I forget sometimes that the F4 screen may not update until I scroll through, but I think even if I do that, some cities will then riot when I run the next turn, even ones that didn't grow. It's also tough managing cities on the verge of growth. Are you saying that if I put 2 martial law units in each city of Pop2 then none of them should riot? I have 5 units in Moscow (Pop2) and the damned thing riots unless one is an Elvis.
3) Land masses are about 2 turns apart.
4a) OK, I'll repeat after you, "Kill, don't bribe. Kill, don't bribe. But those Barb Crusaders were right THERE! Kill, don't bribe."
4b) On the whole continent, roughly 25x10, there were precisely two trade specials, both gems. City on one, city adjacent to the other. That and precisely 5 river squares left me a bit trade poor.
6) Aiming for demo (after Nav?) to get SOL.

KCB: 1) Temple in capital @Size5, and one in an annoying city (which still revolted )
2) Some selective irrigation of plains to permit working forest or mines without starving.
3) Patience? What is this concept?
4) Curiously, I've only lost one, and then I didn't lose a tech because the city was destroyed. I forgot about that feature.

Ed: I'm thinking about MC but haven't been on that path. Likely I'll eventually take Mono from someone.

-- Hermann
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Old February 22, 2001, 14:16   #11
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quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 02-16-2001 02:36 AM
(ICS Trade Sleaze) The overall objective is to trade furiously - initially with your own cities. The small ICS cities send caravans to the capital for either wonders or trade, then later they go overseas to AI trading partner(s).
The capital does not build caravans except for wonders until you can send them to a different continent. Don't squander the trade routes of your best city!


SG(2)


Won't later overseas routes replace early domestic trade routes for the capital? Assuming lack of demand for specific products, won't I do best to have all the small cities set up routes with my highest-trade city, as with an SSC?

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Old February 25, 2001, 02:23   #12
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Yes, early domestic routes can be improved later with more significant overseas routes. Unless there is a very good reason send your freights from small cities to the capital.

When I was referring to squandering routes - I meant in terms of commodities. Say your capital starts off supplying hides, copper and silk. So, you build your first hides caravan and send it down the road for 34g. (Sent overseas to a big AI City and it is worth 10 times this amount for demanded goods) The hides commodity is now in parentheses meaning that you can only produce copper and silk. If you send the remaining two caravans out locally (for meagre bonuses) you could have no caravans to produce in your best city - other than those carrying food. As the game progresses eventually new commodities will become available.

This leads to the debate about re-homing caravans. (Building a caravan in Veii and re-homing it in Rome) If you try and press the shortcut "h" to reallocate a caravan you get a dialogue box saying this is not possible. However, if you enter the city window and use the "support from this city" command it is done! Cheat - or not a cheat? In the past a variety of opinions have been expressed over this topic. In my opinion it is dubious.

There are ways you can maximise trade. Prior to delivery make sure that the city sending the freight has all the trade squares being used - sometimes placing all the workers out to sea does this. If a domestic run - do it for the receiving city as well. If you are not in a representative type of government you can arrange for cities to celebrate before delivery so doubling the trade arrows.

The way commodities appear for supply in the game is a mystery! I have had games when there has been a repeating supply of one particular item - in my experience often hides or silk. I forget how many hides caravans I built in OCC #23!

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Old February 25, 2001, 10:45   #13
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quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 02-25-2001 01:23 AM

This leads to the debate about re-homing caravans. (Building a caravan in Veii and re-homing it in Rome) If you try and press the shortcut "h" to reallocate a caravan you get a dialogue box saying this is not possible. However, if you enter the city window and use the "support from this city" command it is done! Cheat - or not a cheat? In the past a variety of opinions have been expressed over this topic. In my opinion it is dubious.




I'd have to say cheat. If the designers intended for caravans to be rehomed, the message box saying this cannot be done wouldn't appear with the "h" command.
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