Civ3 IS Civ 2.5 but not what you think

[korn469]

D E S I G N E R S ’ N OT E S

The main inspiration for Civilization was the success and reception of Railroad Tycoon. We were very pleased with how Railroad Tycoon worked and began looking for a suitable topic to which we could apply some of its better concepts. Thinking back, we can’t recall now what triggered the idea of making the new game about the history of civilization, but once the topic arose, it quickly became obvious that it fit our specifications.

The central concept to Civilization was that it was to be a “god game,” casting the player as the hero and ruler of a civilization over the course of its history. In this role he would guide and build his civilization, watching it grow and expand, rise or fall. As play proceeded the player could see the results of his decisions unfold and success would hinge on his relative skill.

We also wanted Civilization to require the decision maker to juggle several balls at once. We found in Railroad Tycoon that this helped keep the challenge and interest high. As Sid sketched out the basic design, he evolved the various hats the player would wear.

Clearly he would be the military commander, moving his armies against rivals. A second role was that of economic planner. Wearing this hat, the player would plan the placement, growth, and production of cities. The player would have to decide between “guns or butter,” producing military hardware or economic enhancements for his civilization.

The player would also have to decide upon the direction of research for new knowledge. This again would often be a guns or butter decision, as some advances improved internal conditions and others made the military more potent. The player would have to judge which avenue of research was most useful at any one time, and be prepared to change if conditions warranted it.

As design work continued, additional player roles were added. He would have to conduct his own diplomacy. By keeping track of rivals through the reports of his advisors, the player would have to make judgments on whom to appease, whom to attack, whom to make friends, and whom to ignore. In addition, the management of each city was made more complex, forcing the player to spend more time to keep his cities efficient and stable.

With all of these duties falling to the player, we felt that we had come up with a mix of interesting decisions that would keep the player challenged, and result in a game that was fun and addictive.

Another major concept that we wanted to borrow from Railroad Tycoon was the variability of worlds that made every game different. This worked very well, as in the previous game, making the play fresh each time.

We also decided early on to include the hidden map. We found that this contributed significantly to the fun and interest of play. Another feature that Sid developed was the Civilopedia, the on-line encyclopedia of game concepts. We thought this would especially help new players.

Most of these game features were in place in a rough form by the end of the winter of 1990-1991. Thereafter work proceeded mainly by the trial and error process of coding, testing, reviewing, and re-coding. Through the spring and summer a new version appeared every day or so, and the design became more refined. We made adjustments in the list of technology advances, we juggled their relationships, we made changes in the types and values of military units, we adjusted the time length of turns, we curbed the danger presented by barbarians, and, most critically, we continually improved the artificial intelligence of the rival civilizations.

Among the interesting features that didn’t make the final cuts were ocean minefields that could be laid by Ironclads; alcoholic beverages (proposed by some as a major impetus for the first permanent settlements); Solar Power Plants; Fighter-Bombers 8-8-8(32); the Super Highways Wonder that speeded road building; Charlemagne, king of the Franks; and a much more detailed spaceship.

The most important feature that went in as the game neared completion was the concept of trade routes established by Caravans. This helped with the generation of knowledge and the establishment of strong economies. It also encouraged exploration and diplomacy.

Also important was the home city concept, especially under the Republic or Democracy. Originally, military units cost $2 maintenance each under these governments, then only $1 if they were fortified or on sentry duty. When military units caused unhappiness instead, this seemed to work more as one would expect. It became more difficult to wage war under these governments and provided an interesting trade-off for the improved economic performance.

The last major feature to be included was the Space Race. We had tossed around several ideas for ending the game but eventually returned to space, one of the earliest ideas. Reaching another planet with colonists from Earth made an excellent culmination for the history of humankind on our planet.

Like Railroad Tycoon, Civilization has been a great project to work on. In fact, important work has often been delayed because it was so much fun to play. Civilization has proven to be extraordinarily popular with our colleagues here at MPS Labs, and that’s a good sign. With so many cool features and interesting decisions, plus an endless supply of new worlds, we are certain that Civilization is the last game you’ll ever need. But, just in case you disagree, we’ll start on something new as soon as this one goes out the door.

Sid Meier
Bruce Shelley
September 11, 1991

It looks like to me that Civ3 is going to be the philosophical sequel to the Original Civilization and not to Civ2 and certainly not to SMAC. Most of the above will certainly apply to civ3 and it seems like civ3 is going back to it's roots. So when I say civ3 is civ2.5 I don't mean it as an insult, but instead as a compliment, I mean it as a sequel (to Civ 1) that goes above and beyond the call of duty. If one cares to go back and read The List, or most of the fan suggestions then they would see that we have asked for a larger number of more complex subsystems. However, instead of listening to us the Civ3 team has went back to the original civ and concentrated most on making Civ3 fun.

There are two ideas in particular that I remember that would have certainly made significant progress in making Civ3 more complex and realistic. The first of those is The Joker's very detailed idea of Social Interaction (SI) inspired by the discussion in the improved Social Engineering threads, and the second idea (that I cannot contribute to just one author because I’m going from memory alone) is the idea of a realistic resource and manufacturing system (not like what they implemented in Civ3 but something more like the system used in Imperialism, something truly complex, that every unit had a cost in steel beams/ concrete/ aluminum siding/ lumber/ man-hours for example). These two ideas if combined would have easily increased the complexity of Civ3 exponentially. Yet, I have no idea if they would have increased the fun of Civ3 any at all, much less exponentially. It is possible that they might have increased the fun in Civ3 far more than they did the complexity, we may never know, but the reason that most people (including me) wanted these ideas incorporated was to make Civ3 more realistic.

Now I am not saying that realism doesn't have a place in Civ3, instead what I am saying is that I think many of the fans got caught up in trying to realistically depict everything possible in human history, whereas firaxis has concentrated on boiling down everything to the most essential subsystems and trying to make each one of them as interesting as possible. Almost everyone would rather play a game that only lasted thirty minutes but all thirty minutes was fun; compared to a game that lasted two hours, but only thirty minutes was fun while the other hour and a half was just tedious.

I am optimistic for civ3 and I think it will be quite fun. I think that although firaxis has changed many things and has slimmed down some areas it will be for the best. I was very disappointed (for a long long time) at seeing SE was out of civ3, but now I see more in what direction they are going and until I play civ3 I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. This is for everyone out there who is upset at having their favorite feature either not included, or cut out of the game, or reformulated with a smaller role. Civ3 is going to be fun, it might have been more fun in other ways, but Sid and firaxis are going to concentrate on making it as fun as they possibly can. Who knows, maybe civ3 might just be the last game we ever need.

For all of those who still want more depth in your game, please check out the Alternative Civ section here at Apolyton. There are a number of interesting games in various stages of development. These games have a number of different theories on how to make a great game and most likely, you'll find one that you like. If not come up for a game concept and test the waters with it here. If you find enough like-minded people then maybe your project will be the next big civ like game.

[Timeline]

Hey Korn, the alt civs are pretty good, but, I don’t play them because they are all for multiplayer. Are there any ones that are made for single player, and have a good AI?

[korn469]

Timeline

iirc i thought that Ron said Manifest Destiny is going to have a neural net based AI, but i don't remember exactly...i know that the civ evolution project uses user built AI and has a couple floating around out there and you can find it here www.c-evo.org and you can play freeciv in single player mode but i'm not sure if you would consider the AI good

[Timeline]

What does iirc mean? What is a neural net based AI? (sounds interesting). And, has anyone found Civilization I on the net yet (Warez or otherwise?) Since I couldn't buy it if I wanted to, I don't think it would be wrong to donwload. I have all the other Civ games and I just really want to see what the original Civ is like.

[Wittlich]

Originally posted by Timeline
What does iirc mean?

iirc - If I Remember Correctly

[M. le Comte]

Originally posted by Timeline
What does iirc mean? What is a neural net based AI? (sounds interesting). And, has anyone found Civilization I on the net yet (Warez or otherwise?) Since I couldn't buy it if I wanted to, I don't think it would be wrong to donwload. I have all the other Civ games and I just really want to see what the original Civ is like.

Go to www.abandongames.com
Free and legal ! Civ is no more protected by a copyright.

[Timeline]

Hey Great! Thanks very much.

[ancient]

so wouldnt that make civ3 civ2 not civ 2.5? then what the hell is civ2, civ3? so maybe we shouldnt look forward for a sequel we should look backwords..

[Nikolai]

This was very interesting!!! But, korn, how did you get that "Designers note"? By stealing it??? God forbid!!!

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by M. le Comte


Go to www.abandongames.com
Free and legal ! Civ is no more protected by a copyright.

Just FYI:

"3 Q: Haven't the copyrights for old games (like Atari & Commodore) expired?
A: U.S. copyright laws state that copyrights owned by corporations are valid for 75 years from the date of first publication. Because video & computer games have been around for less than three decades, the copyrights of all video and computer programs will not expire for many decades to come. "

(From http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Abandonware/faq.html)


Another interesting article on the topic can be found at MobyGames:

http://www.mobygames.com/featured_ar...,7/section,26/


Dan
Firaxis Games, Inc.

[ancient]

yeah but no one obeys copyright laws when refuring to pc

not trying to be disrespectfull to the govternment that made these laws but its the trueth the internet is open to anything and no one can stop it..

you cant buy civ1 new anywhere so i think you guys should be supporting its download, encourage keeping the history of gaming alive

[Pembleton]

Edit: I figured out the answer the to my dumb question.

[Mahdimael]

Abandonware is something that the game community needs to address. Developers don't want the games to be distributed, but at the same time, the games are not available anywhere.

Imagine if this were music or books. Would you want an author stopping the distribution of a novel on the internet that has been out of print for years?

Or is Civ1 still being patched by Microprose?

If you want an example of how abandonware should be handled, check out www.theunderdogs.org. He takes down games if the developer/publisher asks, and digs up old classics that a lot of people haven't had the chance to play. And anything that's being sold is not available on his page, but he links to where you can get it.

[General Ludd]

Alot of companies are really anal-retentive when it comes to abandonware and actively pursue and stop any site that is offering their games for download, even if they are no longer being sold / produced.

[Ralf]

Im not gonna argue if "abandonware" is OK or not. Strictly speaking its not legal.

For me the term "abandonware" means games so old that it is impossible for the original company (if still alive) to repromote them/ make money on them - even at heavily reduced prize. Most of these old games is simply hopelessly outdated.
The developers still own the copyrights, and nobody can simply steal the name & game-idea and make updated sequels of it, of course. But commercially speaking, no one is going to lose money just because of some gamers download & play these old versions for free. Its mostly gamers who are stuck with old system due to small wage/ bad economy who bothers with it. Either that or nostalgia-reasons.
Nevertheless there are some few gems available out there - like "Little Big Adventure II" from 1997/Activision (yes, I bought a legal copy back then). If Activision ever decides to release a third sequel, I sure will buy it intantly. Its a true classic.

[korn469]

Dan is right, abondonware is not legal...however i really do think that the copyright holders and the abondonware community should be able to come to some sort of agreement over the issues

look at the pharmaceutical industry...they award patents on drugs to give a company an economic incentive to develop new drugs, but after so many years the patents expire...i think prozac's patent expired earlier this year, even though this was going to cost it manufactorer millions of dollars because of generic brands of the drug...yet abandonware cost the copyright holders of games nothing, and in fact it probably gives then a slight boost to sales but they seem to love to shut down abandonware sites; don't get me wrong i think warez sites deserve to be shut down, and i don't support warez at all, but abandonware is different

just imagine in the year 2050 if someone was looking around in a basement and found a daikatana cd-rom...then they translated this game and put it up on whatever networks they use then...that means unless laws change then they could get sued for copyright violation of a game that was a big flop and that few wanted to play anyway

i wish there would be an abandonware clause in the copywrite laws, i used to own ghengis khan for the NES before my NES tore up and i gave all of my NES related things away, then about a year or two ago i downloaded the ROM version of gk and played it for a couple of weeks...did that hurt either koei or nintendo? not hardly, is it really piracy to download a game you used to own before your severly outdated system died? i don't really think so...especially not since nintendo is going to rely on the gamecube to generate sales for it...i really wonder when the last retail copy of ghengis khan for the NES sold

i believe if you like a company then buy the games it makes...i bout two copies of diablo2 on the second day it came out and i bought two copies of diablo2: lord of destruction on the first day it came out, so i spent about 180 dollars on diablo2 (my brother couldn't afford to buy it and i wanted for both of us to be able to play) so i always try to put my money where my mouth is...if you get a copy of civ1 then makesure you go and buy civ3, not only will you help firaxis out you'll also get a better game than civ1

[Gramphos]

The main reason for Abondonwares is that people want games that no longer are sold. Either because they have heard that they are very good, or because they have a sequel and wants to play earlier versions to compare.
I know Abandonwares are illegal, but they harm nobody, as long as that specific game/application only has made small changes from one version to another, so that you don't think you require the newest one if you can obtain an older.
Many companies give away old applications/games they have made in campaigns to make people buy newer versions. They might change the credits to always show up, and have announcements for the sequel. Civ 1 could for instance have some banners for Civ 3 added, and given away at the Internet or together with a Computer Magazine, but it can't be sold any more.

[isaac brock]

its not a civ-related game, but one of the best abandonware games is Sid Meier's ( ) Covert Action. It's at the underdogs and you're supposed to be an agent for the CIA. you do wiretaps, you can trace peoples vehicles or tail them, and you get to sneak into buildings with uzis and grenades and arrest people (or turn them into double agents). Could Sid consider a remake of this game? it's sweet.

[Timeline]

Originally posted by Gramphos
Civ 1 could for instance have some banners for Civ 3 added, and given away at the Internet or together with a Computer Magazine, but it can't be sold any more.

Oh my God, this appeared in the Civ 3 news section about an hour after your post:

Firaxis Games Communications Manager Kelley Gilmore delivered the news and the cover shot to us this afternoon. In doing so, she also mentioned something on the magazine's cover CD that should also be of interest to fans: the windows version of the original Civ is included.

You sure you aren't psychic Gramphos?! lol!

This changes everything for me. Now that Firaxis is re-releasing Civ 1, I think I am gonna buy the magazine instead.

THIS IS REALLY COOL

Anyone have any comments on this sales move? Good? Bad? . . . INGENIOUS! He he. Well I can now see how an abandonware version of civ would be very bad now that it is available “for sale” so to speak, as some people would not buy the magazine if they already had it (illegally). I also now understand why Dan Magaha so quickly stepped in to set us straight on the copyright.

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Timeline
You sure you aren't psychic Gramphos?! lol!

I don't know. I just think that great minds think alike.

This changes everything for me. Now that Firaxis is re-releasing Civ 1, I think I am gonna buy the magazine instead.

THIS IS REALLY COOL

I must have that magazine! Where can I find it in Sweden?

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Timeline
Anyone have any comments on this sales move? Good? Bad? . . . INGENIOUS! He he. Well I can now see how an abandonware version of civ would be very bad now that it is available “for sale” so to speak, as some people would not buy the magazine if they already had it (illegally). I also now understand why Dan Magaha so quickly stepped in to set us straight on the copyright.

Hmmm, two smart moves from Firaxis:
1) they promote their Civ serie just a month before the Civ 3 goes to the shop (they get the benefit of game inclusion, not the magazine IMHO: I wonder who pay who for the transaction )

2) they "fake" the newbie players to compare Civ 3 with Civ 1, a sure "first glance" greater improvement than that from Civ 2 IMHO

On a side note, I agree that laws are laws, but 75 years of copyright on sw? Come on! Neither my PC is so old!

Abandonware sites and Authors/Publishers should agree on a more realistic limit: it seems better for everyone if best of oldies never rest forgetted under the dust.

Giving the permission to distribute it in a game magazine CD is probably a step into the right direction.

[Skanky Burns]

Also from the site Dan posted:

If you absolutely must play an older game, go ahead and snag a copy from someone. Yes, this is illegal; I should probably be publicly flogged for suggesting it. But a private individual lending a game to another private individual is hardly something worth spending time and money prosecuting. As long as you are discreet and don't attract attention to yourself, you will be largely ignored.

Just for the record, i do have the original Civ 1, still in its original box.

[Timeline]

"As long as you are discreet and don't attract attention to yourself, you will be largely ignored. "

The same applies to shop lifting too, this doesn't mean I am going to go out and do it. You won't be prosecuted for downloading abandonware, or even warez either, does that mean it is okay to do?

Unfortunately, most people believe that when it comes to illegal practices, it all comes down to what you feel is right and what you can get away with.

I try not to force my ideas on the subject on others, but I think that breaking laws just because the law can’t enforce them - is wrong.

My personal feelings are that -in some cases- downloading abandonware is wrong, in some cases, it’s not.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Timeline

"As long as you are discreet and don't attract attention to yourself, you will be largely ignored. "

The same applies to shop lifting too, this doesn't mean I am going to go out and do it. You won't be prosecuted for downloading abandonware, or even warez either, does that mean it is okay to do?

Unfortunately, most people believe that when it comes to illegal practices, it all comes down to what you feel is right and what you can get away with.

I try not to force my ideas on the subject on others, but I think that breaking laws just because the law can’t enforce them - is wrong.

My personal feelings are that -in some cases- downloading abandonware is wrong, in some cases, it’s not.

If a law can't be or isn't enforced, it's really just a suggestion. And in that case, it comes down to how the individual feels about it.

Infact, you prove this with the last line in your post, where you say that you think in some cases it's OK, even though you know that in all cases, it's not legal.

[korn469]

posted by Timeline
The same applies to shop lifting too, this doesn't mean I am going to go out and do it. You won't be prosecuted for downloading abandonware, or even warez either, does that mean it is okay to do?

Unfortunately, most people believe that when it comes to illegal practices, it all comes down to what you feel is right and what you can get away with.

I try not to force my ideas on the subject on others, but I think that breaking laws just because the law can’t enforce them - is wrong.

to me there is a huge difference between downloading an old game that isn't sold any longer off the internet and actually going into a place of business and taking one of their products

copyright laws are made by politicians, who we all hope are acting in the interest of all when they make a law, however a law might have been proposed in the united states by an elected representative whose political career depends upon campaign contributions from those that the proposed law would benefit most, so this politician is going to do everything in his power to make this law as beneficial to his contributors as possible...this politician isn't taking everybody's best interest into account, instead it is the best interest of the campaing contributor and the politician's career

you might laugh and say that such unethical things do not exist in your country, and that elected officials act in the best interest of all...but because of treaties your nation signed with the US, you are now under the jurisdiction of US copyright laws enacted not to be in the best interest of all but to be in the best interest of what we could call here in the US a special interest group...you now have to comply with laws that are not in your best interest, nor are these laws even in the best interest of the majority of people...sometime these laws aren't even in the best interest of the special interest group that payed for them

by stealing games, either through shoplifting or through warez then you are hurting yourself in the long run because you destroy the economic incentive that goes into making games...infogrames will only make civ4 if civ3 made a profit, if civ3 ends up losing money for infogrames then there is no way they will pay for another civ game

however by procecuting fans of actual abandonware (out of date software, which i would say would be at least five years old, that is no longer for sale) the computer games industry is hurting itself...at least a few fans have a demand for this and the goodwill a company could earn would more than make up for the cost of trying to provide these games to people...there is only so much retail space for games, and packaging and distributing games is fairly expensive, especially when there isn't that much of a demand for them, most stores wouldn't want to carry them...older games are usually small and can easily be distributed over the internet...i really hate the negative aspects of globalization, but there are good parts, like talking to other people who share my interest all around the world

i bet that civ1 isn't much larger than the SMAC version 4.0 patch, so it would be well within firaxis's technical means to provide civ1 from the civ3 website however i don't think that firaxis owns civ1, but i think infogrames does, so i think it would be nice if firaxis and infogrames worked out a deal to offer civ1 free to fans...this would certainly increase sales, because who wouldn't wanna play a better version of the game? it's not like if id gave doom1 away that it would hurt the upcoming sales for the upcoming doom:3

so Dan what about it? think Firaxis and Infogrames could work out a deal to make civ1 a download from the Civ3 site?

[lord of the mark]

US (international?) copyright law does give an owner 75 years protection - tht is true - and it does so EVEN IF they pull their product off the market - downloading ordinary abandonware is therefore illegal, and arguably unethical (since a publisher may have good reason for keeping an older product off the market, such as to prevent cannibalization of later versions, protect a name for future use, etc)

However it is also possible to let a copyright lapse. IIUC the most popular abandonware site states that it will pull a game from the site at the request of the publisher, for any reason. Thus the games there are ones that the publishers have not requested be pulled off. Arguably they have thus allowed their copyrights to lapse. Now one could argue that explicit permission is required, rather than the implicit permission given by silence, but this seems an undue burden on such a site, given the difficulty and expense of tracking down copyright holders of abandoned games. AFAIK there is no settled law on this matter.

Note well: I myself have never downloaded such abandonware, even where I believe a legal case could be made for it.

LOTM