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Old August 28, 2001, 10:38   #1
MSCHINELLI
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Republic In Peril
I play on king and sometimes emperor level. I usually pursue AC with a little warring in the mix, and can run with the AI pretty well. Before going to democracy, i often have trouble in republic, with happiness food production. I often still have several settlers out improving terrain, and am trying to get my scine notched up.

When I go from Monarchy to republic, I often have a period of bad round and re-allocation of resources.

can anyone give me some pointers?
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Old August 28, 2001, 11:16   #2
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Monarchy to Republic

1) TIMING

Unless you have the Statue of Liberty wonder; it is important to time revolutions correctly. Every fourth term (from the very start) is the turn to revolt. You will then be able to form a new government next turn.

2) RESOURCE SUPPORT

Each unit costs a shield to support. Look at each city. If a city has more units than shields; it can not support all its units under a Republic. You may wish to re-home units to other cities with spare shields or to disband surplus warriors in cities before changing to Republic.

3) FOOD SUPPORT

Under Despotism and Monarchy; each settler eats one food per turn.
This jumps to 2 foods under a Republic. If a city has 3 settlers then that is an extra 3 food required. Unless a city is particularly food rich (fish, wheat, fruit etc.); I would generally only have one, maybe two settlers but not 3 or more settlers homed to that city, before becoming a Republic.

4) HAPPINNESS IMPROVEMENTS

Under Monarchy each unit in a city makes one unhappy citizen content.
This happiness benefit disappears under a representative government.
It is often a good idea to build temples in larger cities at least and to have researched mysticism and/or alternatively have built the Hanging Gardens
wonder before switching to Republic. Marketplaces are also useful; but only for cities with lots of trade arrows.

5) LUXURY RATE

Set this at 40% (you may get away with 30%; may even need 50%).

6) ENTERTAINERS

Using Elvis should be a last, not a first, resort only.

7) UNITS OUTSIDE OF CITIES

You do not need to worry about units with a 0 attack factor; such as settlers, diplomats, explorers, caravans etc. or about NONE units; those not owned by any city. However having 2 or more other units away from their city and nearby fortresses will result in unhappiness. Prior to building J S Bach's Cathedral wonder; there is not much you can do about this; so you should delay changing to republic until you have reduced the number of units in the field. You can reduce units in the field by moving them to cities; to fortresses within 3 squares of a city or even perhaps by simply disbanding that warrior trapped by another tribe's unit or city in a corner.

8) SUMMARY

A) Before Going to Republic:

a) Build Temples in larger cities and acquire Mysticism
b) Build Hanging Gardens
c) Finish grassland Roads (for trade) and maybe irrigation (food).
d) Re-home units (don't bother about diplomats or caravans).
e) Move units back to your cities/fortresses.

B) Just Before Revolution and Going to Republic

f) Check that your year is a fourth turn year.
g) Disband obsolete superfluous units in cities.

c) Upon becoming a republic.

h) Set that luxury rate at 40%!
i) Reallocate city workers
j) Use the occasional Elvis entertainer where helpful.

I hope that this helps you! Good Luck!



Edward the really really fat!
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Old August 28, 2001, 12:18   #3
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I won't switch (generally) to Republic until I can immediately start celebrating.
This means I want markets and trade routes.Perhaps a happy wonder and banks.Temples and colliseums are a possibilty also.It needs preparation to make the transition smooth and worthwhile.
Always use oedo years or SoL and always scroll thur your cities just after revolting to avoid disorder.Hire Elvi where needed.Run food deficits if neccessary.
Always scroll thru cities immediately after a government is established.Check for sheild and food shortages and adjust workers as you see fit.Sometimes a unit or 2 will need to be disbanded in the feild.
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Old August 28, 2001, 19:40   #4
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Excellent and thorough advice. As always Civ comes down to planning....

But, I wonder given all the steps that need to be performed...and thus diverting time and resources, is it worth it?

I there a better path to democracy? I have tried communisn and had decent reults... in the long run is republic worth it for a mostly peaceful AC game? how about for a more warrior time game?
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Old August 29, 2001, 20:24   #5
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Quote:
how about for a more warrior time game?
Despotism-->monarchy-->Communism/Fundy
last choice depends on how much units you have and the research that still has to be done.

personally I never go to Republic ,to many drawbacks
*all units need support---> bye bye a lot of shields
*unhappiness because of units=>need to divert trade to lux otherwise I could use it for tax or science
*senate pokking around in your decisions
*High rate of corruption--> bye bye trade arrows

only pluspoints
*more tradearrows(but since you need to use 20->50% as lux the're useless in my oppinion)
*celebrations(if I'm not mistaken they give extra pop?Never use celebrations except under demo)

==> conclusion LONG LIVE COMMUNISM
*to 80% usage in taxscreen
*3 units free of support(that's a basic deffence)
*NO CORRUPTION
*No senate bugging you
*No unhappines because your units are out in battle(or am I wrong,I don't pay attention on that)
{no senate downfall into anarchy when 2 or 3 cities riot(this vs demo)
*No science-50%(this vs fundy) }


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Old August 30, 2001, 07:49   #6
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I am going to try communism, but if I am not mistaken, getting the tech for communism comes much later in the game than republic. That means a much longer moarchy. Maybe that is not big deal??
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Old August 30, 2001, 08:08   #7
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You can always check how bigg the differences are(personally i never go to republic always skip to Communism and it seems to work for me)
compare your monarchy to your republic(at the moment of change ofcourse so your empire itself hasn't changed that much)
*look at your tax screen
--> if your max income for tax and science barrely changes(because of the lux rate you need to maintain to keep happines) there is no need to go through a revolution
*look at your productioncapebilities,in monarchy you can build an army of 3x#cities without any shieldsupport=> is that more than you need or do you need a bigger army to survive?

I think those 2 factors tell you what you use best,In overall Republic and Demo are not that usefull if you have a lot of wars
=> because of the senate and unhappines caused by troops.
:banned:

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Old August 30, 2001, 08:19   #8
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Old August 30, 2001, 08:20   #9
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Have you ever used this strategy for an AC game?
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Old August 30, 2001, 08:41   #10
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Old August 30, 2001, 08:41   #11
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Republic is the stepping stone.

(assuming deity)
Start game.
you're only building three things.
settlers
troops to explore/defend
temple

tech goals
1. monarchy
2. trade
3. republic

continue just building items 1-3 until you get trade.
hopefully by now you have quite a few cities. 11 keeps the happiness problems down, but i like quite a few more.
Now 80% of you production should be used building caravans. The rest is finishing your temples, settlers to continue the expansion (mostly from your boarder cities) and a couple of units.

move all caravans to your top producing trade city, (usually capital)
Build col. there if you want, but not required. Don't deliver caravans. just store them.

Keep doing till you get republic. Review your outstanding exploring troops and make sure max one from every city.
First oedo year, revolt. Crank lux to celebrate. Once your top trade city has grown.........START DELIVERING THOSE CARAVANS (just enough every turn so you don't waste the extra science beakers) It's nice if it's demanded, but not required. You will start getting a tech every 1 or 2 turns. And if you have stored enough caravans, you can keep this up for 10-15 techs.
And your treasury will have big bucks. Rush buy more caravans, and in your core cities, markets, aquaducts.


Now the strat splits depending on SP or MP
tech goal....MP democracy straighest path.
tech goal....SP all democracy prereqs except invention. (keeps the trades bonuses higher, and techs from huts.)

Get democracy, build SOL

Once you've finished milking wltkds revolt to communism. Crank luxuries up so Core cities will celebrate and get rep/dem trade bonus. Next turn you should be able to crank lux down almost all the way, but the trade bonus from celebrating should keep the cities celebrating even at the reduced lux level.

Keep up those caravans.

In SP, game over.

In MP, big Power Graph showing.
Race to gunpowder and metalurgy, and go kick some butt.


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Old August 30, 2001, 08:45   #12
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shade, For AC I meant a game in which you landed first on ALpha Centuri as opposed to a bloodlust game..
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Old August 30, 2001, 08:50   #13
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Rah, great plan...can you explain MP, SP and oedo?
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Old August 30, 2001, 09:00   #14
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oh i thought you meant the game alpha centuari(SMAC)
->yes I only play AC games(never bloodlust)
for the moment I am in a Diety game racing to AC against the mongols(I let them grow so there would be some opposition,for the moment they cover the entire eurasian continent,and I cover entire America,I really am looking forward to the fight )
normally I will win the space race.

MP:multiplayer game(more than 1 human player)
SP:single player=> standard game you vs all AI
oedo year=> every 4th turn since the beginning of the game.

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Old August 30, 2001, 09:19   #15
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[the moment they cover the entire eurasian continent,and I cover entire America,I really am looking forward to the fight )
normally I will win the space race.


Build lots of coastal fortresses...good luck
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Old August 30, 2001, 10:54   #16
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I always do but barrely need them,btw I will be the offensive force,the last time they send a fleet(that went all the way around the world )they didn't find me(and they only had to move a little north) and I shot like 15 destroyers&cruisers with 2 cruisemissles to kingdom come .
first I'll need to build an army(now my units are outnumbered 2 to 1(and this is also counting 20+ spy and 50+settlers)
good luck with your game to


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Old August 30, 2001, 15:07   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by MSCHINELLI
Rah, great plan...can you explain MP, SP and oedo?
Sorry for answering for RAH but I was here and saw the post.

SP = Single Player

MP = Multiplayer

Oedo = the name of the poster who "discovered" that every fourth turn you can revolt without having any anarchy period. The years in which the revolt can occur has been named an "Oedo Year" The first Oedo year is 3850bc, then every 4th turn thereafter (i.e. 3650bc, 3450bc etc.)
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Old August 30, 2001, 15:30   #18
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Sorry for answering for RAH but I was here and saw the post.
But you forgot to read the next post

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Old August 30, 2001, 15:44   #19
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Thanks Guys, It's nice to have help when you leave out the details.

I can't add anything else.

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Old August 30, 2001, 21:41   #20
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I'm surprised I haven't seen my concept anywhere else -

When I go into a Republic, I try to have two improvements in most of my cities - a temple, and marketplace OR HARBOR. The temple and marketplace are pretty obvious in that you reduce unhappy people and increase the number of happy people (assuming you use luxuries). With a harbor, though, assuming you've got a few ocean squares around, you've got all the land improvements you really need for a while with one city improvement. With a harbor in Republic, your oceans give you two food (enough to keep growing per square) and three trade arrows (one more than flat land with a road). Otherwise you need a lot of settler time roading and irrigating so your people eat and remain relatively happy while working the land. Granted, you've gotta think of this beforehand when you're putting cities down, and it tends to hurt your resources if you rely on the oceans too much, but I find it significantly reduces the amount of land improving time (allowing for more city-making time).

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Old August 31, 2001, 08:55   #21
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Yes harbors can help (many old threads have discussed this), and if you have the tech, it's a good idea to build them in your coastal cities. But, the tech is off the early optimal path so you have to weigh the benefits, and without happy wonders, if you have enough cities, they can only grow so big before you get an unhappy. (for wltkds maximization) Getting to gunpowder and metalurgy first in an MP game is always sweeeeet.

In SP when you can romp to the happiness wonders, harbors can provide a bigger benefit for growth. In MP getting all the happy wonders is considerably more difficult.

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Old September 5, 2001, 11:52   #22
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Switching from monarchy to republic is always a pain for me (probably because I do it pretty late in the game and without enough planning) but I think it's worth it for the increased trade arrows. It's probably not worth it if you want to be a war-monger.

If you prefer not to plan too much, artificially high luxury rates can offset the unhappiness caused by the sudden ineffectiveness of your martial law units. Military units away from home however should be put in a city (or fortress near a city) before your switch since they make people unhappy regardless of your luxuries.

Spacecow's harbor suggestion is a good one if you tend to become a republic late in the game. If so, you've probably already discovered Seafaring (if only to get the Explorer unit). The advantage of harbors here is not that they let you get big cities. It's that they let you switch to a republic (losing a lot of food 'cause settlers are now twice as hungry), yet still have enough food WITHOUT having to run around and do a lot of pre-republic irrigating. I find it faster and easier to max taxes and buy a bunch of harbors than to build a bunch of settlers and irrigate a couple squares by every city. (Then again I generally have a large - as in many cities - empire with little terrain improvement. If you have a perfectionistic civ with irrigation everywhere then your milage may vary.) The harbor approach does require consciously trying to place cities on coasts when possible while building your empire. Be warned that your dramatic shift from working land squares to working sea squares can greatly reduce the shields your cities produce. Look to see if your cities will still be able to support their units when this happens.

Owning the Pyramids (unpopular with many Deity level players) gives you a great food buffer during the switch to Republic. Even without a lot of planning you have time to rehome (or perhaps "join city") settlers that are starving their cities.

Hating micromanagement, I usually switch to republic without too much planning and have to suck up the consequences - often having to rehome units (esp. settlers/engineers) to avoid long famines or disbanding due to lack of shields.)

MSCHINELLI,

Shade makes good arguments for becoming a communism. While the tech comes later in the game, you can switch to a communism after the discovery of democracy if you build the Statue of Liberty.

I think shade's "look at your max income/tax after the switch" idea is slightly flawed because it doesn't take into account how good your republic/democracy will be AFTER it finally builds enough religious/trade buildings to no longer require a high luxury rate. Republic definitely has some major short term costs while the switch from monarchy to communism is seamless. I still think you'll climb the tech tree more quickly as a republic/democracy - especially if you prefer a smaller (as in fewer number of cities) empire and make the switch early in the game. (That said, an AC victory is very doable with a communism. In fact communism is the cure for missing happiness wonders regardless of your strategy. It offers a decent science rate and great happiness regardless of your situation.)
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Old September 5, 2001, 12:59   #23
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Problem as stated is that the switch from Monarchy to Republic is difficult to manage, especially the first few turns. In that case, switching to Commie, and setting luxuries high enough at first to start celebrations can be the key to victory. This process gets the Republic-level gold from trade squares without the messy growth that WLT_D gives when in Rep/Dem. It will then be possible to back the luxury rate down some but still maintain the celebrating. Plus, no penalty for troops out, not as much need for Happy Wonders, and veteran spies.

I generally wait in Monarchy (Deity, Raging, large map, w/restarts) until I have Bach's to switch to a representative government. The AI seldom pursues Theology, so it's a good Wonder to gauge by. Also, once I start the Cathedral, I can switch units and settlers around to avoid disbanding. If conquering, I'll switch again at Fundy discovery (to Fundy, or to Commie if a few advances are still needed, then to Fundy). For AC, waiting this long in Monarchy beats the heck out of the headaches presented by early Republic.
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Old September 6, 2001, 13:34   #24
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Blaupanzer,

I hadn't considered how powerful semi-permanent "We Love the Comrade" days can be. You could probably get near republic/democracy science research under a communism merely by ensuring that your SSC continually celebrates. It's a good strategy under monarchy, why not extend it into the "advanced" government forms. The only real advantages of representative governments are growth via "We Love" and democracy's immunity to bribing. Excepting an early AC record attempt, republic and democracy are looking pretty crappy.

You, Rah, and Shade have convinced me of the error of my representative ways. Can anyone defend republic and/or democracy? Is communism + "We Love" too powerful? Should I resurrect the "We Love is a crutch" flame-fest?
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Old September 6, 2001, 16:55   #25
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I think the main problem with the choice you make is caused by the AI.No matter what way of living you persue,if you are the strongest the AI will always try to wipe you out(and gets wooped in the proces ).I think if the AI treated you like the way you acted(peacefull=>don't needless attack you,...),I think the use of the governements could be used to better extend,and then Communism would be less attractive,but since you can be sure you're constantly under attack you'll need a decent army.

==>When you're supreme and the rest of the world isn't a problem anymore=>Demo is the best.


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Old September 6, 2001, 19:11   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward

You, Rah, and Shade have convinced me of the error of my representative ways. Can anyone defend republic and/or democracy? Is communism + "We Love" too powerful? Should I resurrect the "We Love is a crutch" flame-fest?
Every Government has it's uses. Monarchy helps you set up for Republic (by quickly growing to size 8-12), which helps you set up for Communism, which helps you build the complete infrastructure to go into democracy without any happiness problems. Getting a tech every turn is still the goal, and BIG CITIES in Democracy, make this simple( and getting the cities up to maximum size is real helpful). And Fundy whenever you need the crutch. But yes, WLTKDs in commie can be real hot.


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Old September 7, 2001, 15:20   #27
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Hi fellas!

Don't know if anyone brought this up, but I didn't see it when rushreading the thread.

With double production the problems mentioned above (support, food, happiness) are heavily reduced for obvious reasons, especially at lower levels (many play at King in MP). It's also easier to celebrate WLTCD.

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Old September 7, 2001, 16:19   #28
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I am not a fan of republic - unit support and hungry settlers can be crippling, and corruption will still eat up a lot of those trade arrows you're counting on to keep you out of disorder. Here's an alternative, which I call the Infinite Caravan Sleaze:

Try to find a good trade site early in the game (trade specials, lots of rivers). Ideally, your capital goes there, but it could be any of your first 8-12 cities. Don't build any other cities inside this city's radius; otherwise, play a standard ICS opening. Go for Monarchy first, then trade, then pottery. Build Hanging Gardens and Colossus in your super trade city, start celebrating, then use settlers to build it up to size 8. Discover Contstruction, build an aqueduct and granary, then use food caravans to build up to size 12. Meanwhile, establish three trade routes to the super trade city (STC) from each of your inner cities. The outer cities keep building settlers to establish more cities, then eventually become inner cities and build caravans. Build roads to the STC to get the 50% trade route bonus.

Several paths are available next: go for sanitation and grow to size 20; go for Democracy and SoL, or go for Railroad for another 50% trade route bonus.

Advantages of this technique: you only need to build infrastructure in one city, but you still get most of the trade a republic would generate. A small amount (20% or so) of luxuries should keep your STC celebrating, and the outlying cities will start celebrating once they establish their trade routes to the STC. Upkeep is minimal, since most of your cities contain no improvements. Martial law still works, and should be enough to maintain order. Each city should have a spare supported unit which can be out there annoying your neighbors while you continue building up.
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Old September 10, 2001, 12:50   #29
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rah,

Ahh! I now see how you're using republic as a stepping stone...

1. Make a bunch of cities under monarchy while settlers aren't hungry. Do minimal Republic preparation by building temples in most/all of your cities.

2. Switch to republic. All your cities have already been founded and you're not going to do any terrain improvement in the near future, so starving settlers aren't an issue. What about republic's happiness problems? Since you're keeping the luxury rate very high, happiness won't be a problem until you lower the luxury rate. Your sneaky idea is that when the luxury rate is finally lowered, you won't be a republic. During step 2 all you're doing is growing your cities quickly via "We Love". (You also saved your trade route caravans until republic for bigger payoffs. 'Though high luxuries are eating your tax and science rates, you use the delivery coin bonus to make buildings to keep the cities celebrating and the delivery beaker bonus to keep up the research.)

3. Switch to communism. Now you can build your infrastructure (terrain improvements & buildings) without the pressure of unhappiness robbing your production and tax/science rate. Communism = no troop-in-field unhappiness, no riot factor, and doubly effective martial law. You can ease down your luxuries until your major cities are just barely celebrating - ensuring continued representative trade arrows. Step 3 is all the more effective since step 2 gave you large cities.

4. Now that your big AND prepared, switch to democracy for super trade/science and immunity to bribing. Coast to AC (or whatever goal suits your fancy).

Very nice.
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Old September 10, 2001, 13:49   #30
rah
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Thanks, couldn't have said it better myself, (or did I?)

The only thing that is slightly different is that I continue to build new cities even in Republic and continue to do so until there is no more land to settle, but at a slightly reduced rate. And a couple of settlers are usually working on the road network. Once a city is size 8/12 and the food box is full, you can run at a negative food flow for quite a while, and as soon as you change governments, you will get the pop back right away.

My only common problem doing this is that I'm moving into Republic earlier and earlier, and then I want to keep squeezing a few more wltkds out of some of the newer cities. I have to learn more discipline in this. If I don't get SOL, sometimes I will stay in republic or fall back into monarchy and try to celebrate my core cities. In sp this never happens, but in MP there are equally talented sharks in the water.

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