What units do you never build?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

More questions, or polls if you will (I recently posted 2 in "General"). Just as it says: are there units you never build? Why? (Alternatively, are there good reasons to be building some of the units I ignore?) As a perfectionist (in civ, anyway... ), there are lots of units I never build, but even when I play world conquest I never seem to build:

1. Legions, catapults, cannons: before railroad, a 1-movement attack unit seems pointless; and while legions have a defense of 2, so do much cheaper phalanxes.

2. Destroyers: Ironclads are still around, cruisers are just around the corner; I just don't see the point.

3. Marines: weaker on the attack than armor, no better on the defense than alpines, and amphibious assaults never seem very effective. Why bother?

I could probably add cruise missles and carriers, but there are rare occasions when I build both. And you?

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly (edited February 25, 2001).]

[Smash]

[Fubla]

Legions and catapults come in handy for taking cities early on...sometimes archers just won't cut it and bribing is impractical. Marines also come along way before armor (at least for me, but then again, if I've got Sun Tzu, I like those PRESTO-veteran units), so they usually see some use. Plus I have a special forces unit that I drew all by myself and it gives a warm fuzzy feeling whenever i see it. But as far as I'm concerned, armor makes marines obsolete.

I don't really use destroyers either. They just don't pack enough punch to be worth it. Come to think of it, I don't really use ironclads, either. Not sure why, though...oddly enough, I tend to get through my games with no more than ten or so naval units. I'm perfectly content to let the AI knock itself unconscious on coastal fortresses. Or just move its ships around with no apparent purpose.

I never seem to use fanatics. Maybe because I never use fundamentalism. Oh well.

[Thoth]

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly on 02-25-2001 02:59 AM 2. Destroyers: Ironclads are still around, cruisers are just around the corner; I just don't see the point.

I usually get electricity before steam engine (I never build the GL, but HG is a priority), so I never build ironclads.

quote: 3. Marines: weaker on the attack than armor, no better on the defense than alpines, and amphibious assaults never seem very effective. Why bother?

If I'm playing standard rules, I don't bother with marines, but if I'm playing a homemade mod, I'll sometimes build them. The mod gets rid of Alpine troops, and gives Marines the alpine ability (for an extra 10 shields). This I find, makes them worthwhile.

I never build archers, legions or partisans.

I very rarely build frigates, cannon or artillery. Mostly this is due to timing. They become available while I'm a Democracy and I'm busy getting my cities up to maximum size with lots of trade routes, improvements and busy engineers.

[Scouse Gits]

Thoth - Ironclads are fun! But more important, the earlier you have them - the more lethal they are!!

At this stage of the game you shouldn't be too concerned about losing the Gardens. (SoL should put you in a more advanced government than Monarchy) It is sad to see Railroad kill them off, but by delaying this key tech you are in danger of stunting the growth of your civ. I dislike Railroad for the reduction in Caravan bonuses, but gain compensation via Darwin with Industrialisation (transports) and Economics or The Corporation.

If I have Leo's I delay Electricity as I don't want my vet Ironclad fleet becoming green destroyers.

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SG(2)
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited February 25, 2001).]

[Qin Shihuangdi]

It depends a little bit on the level I'm playing and the overall objective, but normally I will never build

The early attack-oriented units: Warrior, Archer, Legion

-Since my early game is focused on rapid expansion, I don't have time and resources to waste on movement 1 units. I am always building settlers (and movement 2 units once I find another civ), and phalanxes before I switch to Wonder building and city improvements.

Cannons

-By the time they show up my science is usually at such an accelerated pace that I am already eyeing Artillery.

Dragoons

-Much the same as Cannons. Dragoons are glorified Crusaders (they have the 1 extra defense which means little by the time the AI is using Cannons). By the time Dragoons come around, I'm already thinking about Cavalry which have a much higher attack.

Alpine Troops

-Never saw the need for these. Veteran Rifleman are less costly and are "good enough." Mech. Infantry cost the same as Alpine Troops, have an additional defense, attack, and two movements.

Paratroopers, Marines, Partisans

-I consider these the "special forces" which I would only use in a scenario format. During a normal game, mass producing Rifleman, Armor, and Howitzers, is easier to do than to coordinate an attack with Paratroopers and Marines.

Frigate, Galleon, Ironclad

-My tech path is to Transports, which carry many more units, fairly quickly after Frigates and Galleons so there isn't much need for producing these. Caravels are good enough for the early game IMO, especially with Lighthouse and Magellan's. Destroyers come around so quickly after Steam Engine that I have never seen any need for building Ironclads. They cost the same and Destroyers have two more movement.

Helicopter

-I'm sure there are virtues to using Helicopters, but I rely on a more traditional Fighter approach as they cost less than Helicopters.

[War4ever]

well now i build things just to keep one of each unit in my capital to show the power of my civ and what stage the military is at Like a shrine.... someone else did this and thus inspired me to do it.....

if i have leos..... i don't build any industrial units as upgrades make them become the very units i want.....

however there are times when the odd legion sees construction.... especially if i am around alot of hills and all i have are warriors for martial law

however most times against the ai.... i opt for warrior defense with dips as back up and a few horses...... losing a city is easily countered by the bribe back.....and the shields wasted on anything other than martial law can affect you long term disposition


I second the early and sometimes super frigate!! Awesome sea power can never be overrated

i never build marines for all the above statements... plus they suck...

i don't build alot of fighters either..... the ai rarely gets them without me already having stealth

i don't build alot of artillery, or dragoons either..... it didn't work for Napoleon, so i doubt it would work for me either

[Ribannah]

as good as never:

Artillery
Cannon
Catapult
Cruise Missile
Fanatics
Helicopter
Ironclad(!)
Legion
Nuclear Missile
Partisans

seldom:

Archers
Bomber
Cruiser
Destroyer
Explorers
Marines
Paratroopers
Submarine

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[solo]

It's easier to list the only military units I need to build:

1) A phalanx to defend each city.

2) As many cheap horsemen and diplomats as possible.

3) A big fleet, buying and bribing the best of what is currently available.

Then, quickly to Leonardo's and Fundamentalism (via Statue of Liberty), and the war should be over before anything more advanced than cavalry are required.

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It is more pleasant to live in the corner of a housetop,
than in a wide house with a brawling woman.

[colossus]

I love Catapult!
It usually arrives earlier than legion, crusader or knight.(mathematics is a high priority tech) And one cannot just sit back for the AI's push out its elephants, legion, etc. Some strong attack units must be there, especially for choke points, catapult fills exactly that role.

[Tizzy]

Never:
Explorers ( )
Partisans
Destroyers
Horsemen
Fanatics
Frigates
Galleons
Paratroopers

Rarely:
Catapults
AEGIS cruisers
Helicopters
Carriers
Nukes
Crusaders
Submarines

[Sieve Too]

Never build:

Archer - crappy move, attack and defense, what a combo!
Legion - almost as bad, can't kill most defenders behind walls
Chariot - can't kill anything except on grass/plains
Explorer - too slow and the AI always demands withdrawl
Frigate - can't kill fortifying Muskets so kinda useless
Cannon - wait for Cavalry
Marines - truly useless
Trireme - Att/Def/HP of a Warrior, annoying to move, expensive and slow
Destroyers - wait for Cruisers
Helicopter - even a Rifleman can kill this loser
Cruise Missile - too expensive and causes unhappiness in Democracy


Rarely build:

Phalanx/Pikeman - choke points only
Catapult - choke points only
Horsemen - Diplos are better for exploring and need no support
Partisans - too slow, usually dies from counter attacks, fun for pillaging
Paratrooper - same as Partisan
Caravel - better than Trireme, build a few for trade
Ironclad - small window of dominance
Submarines - leave in a city and use as counter-attack to any ship
Carriers - cruise missile magnet, only build in very watery worlds
Battleship - too slow, cruise missile magnet, small window of dominance
Nuke - build only 1 so the AI is less likely to sneak attack


Good to build:

Warriors - cheapest martial law, build Leo and watch the fun
Elephant/Crusader - best defense is a good (and mobile) offense
Diplo/Spy - obvious
Musket/Rifle - vets cans hold off most anything of the era behind walls
Dragoons - can kill any pre-gunpowder unit, even behind walls
Cavalry - can kill Muskets behind walls
Alpines - take along for defense when conquering
Fanatics - el cheapo city defense
Artillery - fp of 2 - can kill Rifles and Alpines behind walls, even vets
Mech Inf - good against anything short of Howies and Bombers
Howitzer - obvious
Cruiser - fp of 2 easily defeats any earlier ship
Galleon/Transport - gotta get there from here somehow
AEGIS - the only non-transport ship worth building in the modern era
(Stealth)Fighter - excellent scout, pick off cheap units on easy terrain
(Stealth)Bomber - invincible if the AI is pre-Flight

[Edward]

Thoth,

I'll have to agree with Scouse Gits. Railroad is a great advance that can't come too soon for me. It lets you move your caravans and defenders around your civ in the blink of an eye (after building up your railroad network). Railroads can also beef up your shield production (e.g. in forests and mined hills). The tech tree narrows at railroad. It's the first of the industrial techs (railroad - railroads, industrialization - factories, the corporation - freight, electronics - Hoover Dam), all of which boost your infrastructure.

If you're using the Hanging Gardens, then you probably skipped the Oracle and built Michaelangelo's Cathedral. After you make your Hanging Gardens obsolete, you can boost your happiness up again with the Oracle (which I'm sure you'll have the tech for) or J.S. Bach's Cathedral (which will never expire). The AI isn't keen on either of these wonders.


Back on topic: I'm in agreement with any conqueror who uses two-movement units. I'd rather have a bunch of chariots than have to march up a bunch of legions. Guess I'm too impatient.

I also love the lowly warrior - he's cheap and quick to make. He can maintain martial law. He's an inexpensive fencepost to keep an AI penned in. He's a quickly bought defender for an empty city. He's invaluable for incremental rush buying. Long live the warrior!

[Alinestra Covelia]

I do use Helicopters occasionally, because they're one of the few air units that can conquer empty bases, which is especially useful against cities on one-square islands with none of my bases nearby (since they have a longer range than paratroopers).

I find it really bizarre that you can still have Frigates hanging around after Ironclads are built if you follow the right research paths, simply because Transports don't come along until after Industrialization.

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia on 02-26-2001 01:10 PM I find it really bizarre that you can still have Frigates hanging around after Ironclads are built if you follow the right research paths, simply because Transports don't come along until after Industrialization.

Well, that's history for you. Ironclads were only used in a small part of the world anyway.



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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Thoth]

quote: Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia on 02-26-2001 01:10 PM I find it really bizarre that you can still have Frigates hanging around after Ironclads are built if you follow the right research paths, simply because Transports don't come along until after Industrialization.

It's even more bizare when you have a couple of Frigates left when you discover Nuclear Power.

Edward and the SG's: I agree, Railroad is a great advance, but I'm virtually always a Democracy at that stage of the game, and I find it hard to resist the temptation of putting off railroad for a few more turns so I can squeeze a few more people into my cities via WLTPD, especially if I'm running at a 20% luxury rate.

I'm sure ironclads are great if you can build them, but I never get the chance, Electricity is a higher priority for me. I *HATE* giving the AI anything for free (via the GL).

[Scouse Gits]

I guess the only unit I 'never' build is the Helicopter, but there are a host of units on the once in a blue moon list.

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Scouse Git[1]
"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[LeeT]

Ribannah's note is exactly why I almost never build ironclads, or Cavalry for that matter. The game designers needed Cavalry as a progression from Dragoon to Armour, but from 1815 to 1915, actual cavalry was essentially useless, unless the horse was exclusively used as transportation. And whether using a "real" map or a random one, I try and follow the historical path of whomever I pick as my civ.

I usually pick a grand "strategy" at start and play accordingly. If I'm playing the Mongols, for example, I'll build no defensive units or city improvements, but have Horsemen, Chariots, what-have-you everywhere, and endlessly attack. If the Japanese or Romans (neither of whom had any cavalry of note) Legions will be the pre-gunpowder backbone of the army, I will attack to gain an area, but then settle and fortify it before moving on.

My current favourite is playing England, which means not only mostly naval, but instead of picking a defined territory, I sail around and try to find a juice place to drop a colony, preferably off an AI's coast. I end up with a scattered, hard to defend empireand fight off the various attacks, as I end up everyone's neighbour. I've never bothered with destroyers or subs until I started this "strategy," but for an isolated island by itself, a destroyer on patrol and a sub in port waiting to strike is more flexible and cheaper than a lot of other options. I limit myself to one army, of upto eight units, with which to attack, and marines have proven themselves handy, and not too costly considering the small size of the army over all.

I find it fun to just try something you never bothered with before just for the challenge.

[Smash]

..and that is why Civ2 has had the longest play life of any game I own.

[EdwardTKing]

I never build Helicopters; they are expensive and vulnerable. While they can capture an empty city; they can not hold it against counter attack.

Other units I seldom build are Marines as expensive and sea attack will fail against fortified Riflemen behind a coastal fortress. I also tend to make limited use of chariots preferring cheaper horsemen for scouting
or more effective elephants, crusaders, knights for attack.

[Dis]

lots of them

exploerers
Legions and Archers (only get them out of huts)
spies (just don't like unconventional warfare)- I'll build dips just to set up embassys
crusaders
catapults, elephants, and cannons (I prefer late warfare)
horseman (only get them out of huts)
knights (same as above they turn into knights after I get leos)
warriors (unless the situation is hazardous I wait until bronze)
cruise missles- cost inneficient
frigates
galleons (unless leos upgrades my caravel)
ironclads
destroyers
marines
alpine infantry (occasionally I build these if I am in war and am not close to mech infantry)
paratroopers (too much hassle)
Partisans (no one in their right mind would build these)

and caravans (just kidding)


[This message has been edited by Dissident (edited February 27, 2001).]

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Dissident apparently doesn't build much - 20 units that he never builds!

Most units have a place in the game, as seen from everybody listing that they don't build this - except in this or that situation. I never use:

fanatics - fundamentalism just isn't much fun (i'm a perfectionist)
frigates - galleons carry more, and these are worthless against the soon-to-arrive ironclads
chariots - just an expensive horseman
warriors - everybody seems to like them for civil unrest, but I just never bother with them. they can't defend, they can't attack, they're too slow to explore, what's the point?

[Scouse Gits]

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq on 02-27-2001 10:30 PM warriors - everybody seems to like them for civil unrest, but I just never bother with them. they can't defend, they can't attack, they're too slow to explore, what's the point?

Don't dismiss the humble warrior. They can put up heroic stands. Early in the game when a barb archer appears on your doorstep you can sometimes kill it with a warrior - assuming the archer has no terrain advantage. Two warrior attacks have a good chance of success.

Barb archers have a defence of 1. (Thanks DaveV) However, they attack at 3. Kill them before they have a chance to strike at you! Offensive defence pays dividends.

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SG(2)

[Sieve Too]

The puny Warrior is just so cheap that he's your best ticket to allowing early Deity cities get to size 2 and 3 so that you can quickly build what you really want to build: Settlers.

As to defense, just two barbs will overwhelm your Phalanx so you're gonna lose anyway. Make Polytheism and Writing a priority and attack invaders before they reach your cities. Diplos can buy back your cities for cheap and you get a decent unit in the bargain. After you have a few cities, you should be establishing choke points on good terrain. Save your Phalanx for these places. With choke points, the AI won't even get near your cities so Warriors are as good as anything else.

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq on 02-27-2001 10:30 PM I never use: frigates - galleons carry more, and these are worthless against the soon-to-arrive ironclads chariots - just an expensive horseman warriors - everybody seems to like them for civil unrest, but I just never bother with them. they can't defend, they can't attack, they're too slow to explore, what's the point?

1) Frigates
Have you ever built a squadron of vet frigates?
(the tech path is shorter than the one leading to ironclads, hence with a bit of careful planning you should be able to use them quite a while before facing the first enemy ironclad, then you probably lose 1 or 2 frigates before sending the ironclad to the bottom; but, if your squadron is numerous enough, you just go on taking ALL AI cities close to the ocean and
RULE THE SEAS WITH YOUR FRIGATES (HELLO MR NELSON!)

2) Chariots
Expensive horsemen, but worth the expense: they beat ANY unit pre gunpowder in the open (except rough,... but who wishes to be riding in the rough? (hello Mr Ballesteros!)

3) Warriors
SG has explained (hello chieftain!)

[Sieve Too]

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 02-28-2001 09:52 AM 1) Frigates Have you ever built a squadron of vet frigates? (the tech path is shorter than the one leading to ironclads, hence with a bit of careful planning you should be able to use them quite a while before facing the first enemy ironclad, then you probably lose 1 or 2 frigates before sending the ironclad to the bottom; but, if your squadron is numerous enough, you just go on taking ALL AI cities close to the ocean and RULE THE SEAS WITH YOUR FRIGATES (HELLO MR NELSON!)

How do you make them vets? Lighthouse expires with Magnetism. Port Facility is too far off.

quote: 2) Chariots Expensive horsemen, but worth the expense: they beat ANY unit pre gunpowder in the open (except rough,... but who wishes to be riding in the rough? (hello Mr Ballesteros!)

The AI likes the rough. The early game is especially filled with rough terrain. The Chariot's poor defense means you are likely to lose them to any counter attack, even from Horsemen and Warriors. While they may be able to defeat most units on grass/plains, they'll probably lose enough hp and end up with only 1 movement point. At least with an Archer or Legion you can stick them on a mountain and they can hold their own, attacking and defending.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Helicopters. They don't move fast enough to offset the fact that they are weak, weak, weak on defense! I can't countenance spending 100 shields on something that fragile. If they moved a bit faster they might be a good exploration unit, but they never seem to last long in combat.

Stealth Bomber. Stealth fighters are cheaper and more versatile, and AI cities don't seem to require the amount of 'punch' a SB can deliver.

Archers/Legions. In the very early part of the game, I spend most of my time building defensive units (warrior, phalanx, pikeman) and 2-move attack units.

Cannon/Artillery. Catapults, I do build, just because sometimes my early cities need something to kick out AI legions/knights... but cannon and artillery are overshadowed by Dragoons/Cavalry, which attack well enough and are more flexible, being 2-move units.

Partisans. Too expensive for something that's basically a weaker version of Alpine Troops. I never seem to have much call for that 'ignore ZOC' function - that's what Spies are for!

Cruise missiles. I kind of dislike spending shields on a 1-shot, 1-dimensional unit, and besides, they're just too hard on happiness.

STYOM

[Dis]

maybe I should clarify what I do build. I even build less units than those listed above.

Helicopters: yes they do have a purpose- although not the intended one. they are great for taking size 1 or 2 cities out in the middle of nowhere (ie not connected by roads). These are very hard to find and take over with howitzers. And if I'm playing the earth map I always have these cities in northern russia.

phalanxes: gotta defend the cities with something. although I don't know how you diety guys do it. the ai Archers kill my phalanxes a lot of times! But that is the best I'm going to get until leos upgrades me to pikeman- no better against archers though. my only hope is to have an offensive unit close by.

caravans/freight: of course

settlers/engineers: hard to play without these

horseman: occasinally if I can't get them in a hut

tireme: I just can't wait for navigation (perhaps why I lose magellans so often to the ai). i need trade routes and embassys. and I can't stand black areas!

aegis cruisers: they kick ass- they can't bombard like a battleship, but they can hold their own in naval warfare without being bombed by cruise missles

carriers: I build these often- esp on earth map if I can't get airbases set up. But once my planes have a foothold on the new continent I can care less if the ai blows them up with missles

battleships: always build if the ai doesn't have cruise missles- they are tanks

armour: movement 3 good attack 'nuff said

howitzers: how else are you going to win the game if you haven't already?

transports: tranporting 8 or 16 howitzers can seriously f*ck up the ai. If in war I escort them with aegis

fighter: great for knocking out the ai's pathetic attempt at an air force

bombers: just to make the takeover that much faster

dips: only to build embassys- I dislike unconventional warfare

mech infantry: replacement for rifleman- fairly cheap

calvary/knights: only if in war and/or being harrassed by barbs

that's it folks, I'm too lazy to build anything else. I don't build rifleman because if playing the ai, I always get leos.

[Sieve Too]

I've got to put in a good word for the underappreciated Artillery unit.

Once the AI has Riflemen, your expensive Cavalry units are hard pressed to take any more cities. Large AI cities with 4 or 5 vet Riflemen are just too tough. You either blow a dozen Diplos just trying tear down the walls or you blow 15 Cavalry in a suicide attack. Either way, it sure slows down the blitzkrieg. If the city is on a river, forget it. If the AI gets (or steals) Tactics, your days of conquering with Cavalry are truly over.

That's where the Artillery unit shines! Being a clever player, you long ago gifted the AI with Railroad so they can make conquering ever so easier. Bring along 3 or 4 Engineers and a couple vet Alpines. The Engineers build the fortress outside the AI city and fill in any needed non-railed squares. The Alpines sit in the fortress for defense. Bring up the Artillery on the rail line into the fortress and blast away. Vet Artillery have Att=15 and fp=2. Only 10 hits are needed to bring down defending Rifles or Alpines instead of the usual 20. This is an enormous difference.

Even when Armor becomes available, the fp of 2 make the Artillery unit better at killing just about anything, and they're much cheaper too. I like additional moves of Armor and Cavalry too, but this become less important when the world is filled with rails.

[jake03]

[quote]Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 02-25-2001 10:54 AM
Thoth - Ironclads are fun! But more important, the earlier you have them - the more lethal they are!!


Boy I have to agree ironclads are one of the funnest parts of the game. If I get them first I quit often sail them in every directions blowing up every city I find just for amusement.