AC in BC with OC

[solo]

Just landed in 14 B.C. by converting OCC #23 to a scenario! Am wiped, but will post a log tomorrow in this thread.

[Ribannah]

Told you so

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Scouse Gits]

Brilliant!
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SG(2)

[Theben]

I hate you.

[solo]

(I have edited this entry to make a few corrections and to add my game notes to the log of the game, in which I relate my strategies and other irrelevant and boring details.)

To purists, this game will not count. It uses a map especially designed for accelerated starts. I am still totally in awe of Arii’s remarkable game, where he was able to land so early with a game-generated map and without the benefit of a distorted start. This game also violates some OCC guidelines for comparison games, namely:

1) This game was not a first try on this map. It represents the culmination of experience gathered in several previous failed attempts.

2) This conferred the advantage of knowing where the AI were likely to hang out each game, plus the unavoidable knowledge of the exact location of many of the huts on the map. However, the homogeneous nature of the map, plus the lack of ocean and plentiful supply of huts, limited the extent of this advantage.

3) In comparison games we must live with our mistakes. In this game, I freely admit to “correcting” major blunders due to carelessness or miscalculations. Civ II games take an enormous investment of time. To have one spoiled just because I forgot to complete one build before starting the next turn, or because I miscounted beakers and just missed an advance that was possible with more careful Einstein manipulations, does not seem fair. I wanted to see what I could do with my best strategy and effort, and felt incapable of playing a complete game without making a few dumb mistakes, so I took this liberty.


However, I refrained from “correcting” outcomes that should be due to chance, such as unwanted hut results or the appearance of pollution or barbarians, though I used any and all legitimate ways to lessen the chances of “bad luck”. Let me illustrate this distinction with some examples:

1) Suppose, on the first try, a barbarian comes from a hut. That‘s life. It is reprehensible to reload the game and try for a more favorable result. However it’s perfectly legitimate to use Ribannah’s tip to explore around a hut before you open it, to lessen the probability of a barbarian outcome. The technique works. Thanks Ribannah!

2) Suppose you were not aware of Oedo’s xxxo tip. Again, after deciding to revolt, it’s reprehensible to reload a game and try your revolution at a later time, hoping for less anarchy. However, most players have no qualms about exploiting the knowledge of xxxo. Thanks again, Oedo!


In fact, the sleuthing and use of such information is one of the things that make this game so much fun to investigate and play. It’s like trying to break a secret code. My biggest problem to solve in this game was finding a reliable way to delay the appearance of invention from a hut, because I felt I needed every tech available from huts to have a chance to land before 1 A.D. The technique I discovered worked like a charm, and I will describe it in a later post. Without it, the problem of invention coming too early seemed insurmountable. To me, it’s always more satisfying to find a way of reducing the role played by luck in the outcome of a game, rather than by having a good result just because I was lucky.


Playing the game as a scenario conferred another significant advantage: research could proceed in any order, because in a scenario you are never presented with those short lists of undesired advances from which to make a selection, which are so prevalent regular games. However, there was no choice but to use a scenario, because spaceship parts are not available before 1 A.D. in the regular game. Other than that, my start was just the same as the one presented in OCC #23. While creating my scenario, I resisted the temptation to start myself off with say: 20,000 gold, 10 spies, 16 engineers, or any other advantage available from the cheat menu. After all, I wanted to give Theben a reason to hate me as much as possible!

Enough said. The game log follows:

>My initial explorations exploit my previous tries with this map a little. I tried to explore in areas away from the AI first, in order to get fewer units out of huts attached to Rome later.

3950 hut: horseman
3900 hut: archer
3850 4 huts: 100g, horseman, archer, alphabet
3800 hut: archer
3750 2 huts: ceremonial burial, bronze working
3700 hut: horseman
3650 6 huts: 4 horsemen, chariot, 50g
3600 4 huts: 2 chariots, 2 archers
3550 4 huts: mysticism, 50g, pottery, map making, Rome founded using site with 2 spice and 2 gold

>I think the only other viable site is 2 wine and 2 gold, but spice gives 4 extra food for city growth and was a little closer to the starting position of the settlers. This site never generated more than 11 shields, but 10 was all I needed to finish off the last row when rush-buying caravans. I had no time to be building mines. I would like to delay Rome 5 more turns to get a bigger army, but need to reach size 3 at or before 2500 B.C., hopefully producing another settler on the way, to help irrigate.

3500 4 huts: 50g, 2 archers, currency
3450 granary, 7 huts: 100g, masonry, seafaring, 2 horsemen, code of laws
3400 11 huts: mathematics, 100g, trade, astronomy, 4 barbarians, construction, archer

>Throughout the game, I started every build by disbanding a unit, and would rush-buy each build with gold or extra units that I could spare. I was unable to get enough units back to Rome to do this on years 3500, 3400, 3300, and 3200, missing 4 chances. After getting trade early, I abandoned my extra settler idea and jumped at the chance to build the first of many hides caravans. My plan was to make as many commodity caravans as possible as early as possible, and to work the repeating hides trick for all it was worth. When nothing else was essential, I was devoted to making hides.

3350 hides, 5 huts: warrior code, chariot, writing, horseback riding, 50g
3300 6 huts: iron working, 2 barbarians, horseman, legion
3250 hides, 12 huts: monarchy, 2 legions, feudalism, horseman, literacy, 50g, barbarian, chariot, bridge building
Aztecs: peace, share maps, give tech
3200 5 huts: chivalry, 75g, navigation, knight
Mongols: peace, share maps, give tech

>Now I am getting a steady stream of units arriving in Rome and can rush-buy every turn. First to head back from hut tipping duty were the 4 or 5 that came out of huts with the Rome nametag.

3150 hides, 9 huts: 5 barbarians, legion, wheel, knight
3100 hides, 10 huts: philosophy, republic, 3 barbarians, polytheism, physics, legion, 75g
3050 hides, 10 huts: 3 barbarians, 150g, 2 legions, banking, knight
revolution, government to Monarchy
Carthaginians: peace, share maps, give tech, 50g tribute

>I did not go to Republic yet, because I was still size 2, and I did not want to go into a shield deficit supporting units from huts attached to Rome. Monarchy was best suited for the present situation.

3000 temple, 7 huts: 150g, knight, magnetism, university, legion
Zulus: peace, share maps, give tech
2950 diplomat, medicine (free due to philosophy),
7 huts: 3 barbarians, 100g, chemistry, theory of gravity
Americans: peace, share maps, give tech, 50g tribute

>Often needed to disband the last military unit in Rome to finance a build, so I took time out from hides to make a diplomat to keep the city safe from barbarians. In previous games where I waited to found Rome until 3000, I had so many extra units, I fortified them all around the outskirts of Rome creating a buffer between my city and barbarian outbreaks.

2900 hides, 8 huts: 150g, 2 legions, barbarian
2850 hides, 8 huts: 100g, economics, legion, barbarian, 3 knights
Vikings: peace, share maps, give tech
2800 hides, 7 huts: 100g, monotheism, theology, 2 legions, atomic theory
2750 hides, 7 huts: 3 legions, engineering, invention, crusader

>I am only lacking sanitation from hut technology. My invention delaying technique worked perfectly in this game, and now I had a real chance to try and land before 1 A.D.
I wish I hadn’t got the unnecessary polytheism, monotheism and theology, but having everything else more than compensated. Meanwhile it’s still hides, hides, hides. In 2700, my diplomat bribes a barbarian and uses it to kill the leader lurking behind, which I always tremendous get a tremendous kick out of doing.

2700 hides, barbarian leader, 150g, 8 huts: 275g, 2 barbarians
Aztecs: give tech, share maps, 25g tribute
Mongols: give tech, share maps
Carthaginians: give 1 tech, cut off
revolution

>Now I can switch to Republic. All units attached to Rome have been disbanded, Rome is size 3, and I can afford to buy Shakespeare’s Theater with a disbanded unit and gold.

2650 hides, government to Republic,
9 huts: 300g, 2 barbarians, crusader
2600 Shakespeare’s Theater, WLTCD starts at 3
7 huts: 350g, legion
Americans: alliance, share maps, give tech

>The start of a game-long alliance with the Americans. I kept trying with all other AI, but never got any takers.

>Hides are starting to roll into cities demanding it. My strategy was to defer science wonders and other improvements for awhile, and use caravans almost exclusively to jump-start those first few advances I had to learn on my own. Each caravan added a good chunk of beakers to research (much more than my tiny city was capable of) and provided gold I could use later to help finance the purchase of science improvements and wonders, when I had more citizens to make more effective use out of them. It never hurts to get those first 3 trade routes in early, either. Hides payoffs aren’t that terrific, but their sheer quantity gave me a lot of flexibility. Notice how each advance at this critical stage in the game is speeded up by delivering caravans, and how the extra beakers derived from trade have let me keep researching quickly while using 20% luxuries to maintain WLTCD.

2550 hides, hides(d) to Washington, 154g, hides(d) to Trondheim, 124g
2500 hides, 8 huts: 3 barbarians, crusader, 2 legions

>My hides headed for Karakorum can reach it next turn, and hides are still in demand. So I move and am blocked by a Mongol settler. Following turn, guess what, hides are no longer in demand. This is one of the most irritating things about the game, to trot halfway across the world and to lose that demand bonus on the very last turn. It happens so often it can’t be due to just bad luck. However, 92 gold and 92 beakers are better than nothing, and that 3rd trade route has been established. I divert other hides caravans headed towards Karakorum to other cities demanding hides.

2450 hides, 10 huts: 275g, 4 barbarians
2400 hides, hides to Karakorum, 92 g, hides(d) to Trondheim, 160g
5 huts: 2 barbarians, 25g, 2 crusaders
Zulus: give tech, share map
Vikings: give tech, share maps
Carthaginians: give tech, share maps
2350 spice, 6 huts: 125g, 3 legions, barbarian

>Hides finally run out, but every single one I made was critical to the outcome of the game. After making a spice caravan, it’s time to focus on the city improvements I’ve been postponing. Good timing, I’m size 8 and need an aqueduct anyways.

2300 aqueduct, 5 huts: 2 barbarians, 100g, legion
2250 library, 4 huts: 75g, barbarian, crusader
2200 university, 6 huts: 200g, legion, crusader, barbarian
hides(d) to New York, 236 g
2150 marketplace, sanitation, 8 huts: crusader, 275g, barbarian, legion

>Besides adding city improvements and science wonders, I really need to get going on my irrigation and road building, which have also been deferred. So far my lone settler has only made 3 roads to facilitate traffic in and out of Rome. So I head towards explosives to get engineers as quickly as possible. I need them even more quickly than I need Democracy.

2100 sewer system, 3 huts: 150g, hides to Teotihuacan, 112g, hides(d) to Washington, 256g
2050 Copernicus’ Observatory, 4 huts: 150g, barbarian, hides(d) to Trondheim, 212g

>Copernicus is not quite enough to get gunpowder next turn. I was just able to afford the Colossus by selling my granary, and by disbanding all 4 military units I had in Rome, leaving my diplomat all alone with about 25 gold.

2000 Colossus, gunpowder,
7 huts: 2 musketeers, crusader, 175g, hides(d) to Trondheim, 282g

>Now it’s time to rush the development of my city. In previous games I was always falling behind with 4 engineers, so decided on 5 for this game, two for irrigating and farmland, and 2 for roads, which I had been neglecting. The extra one irrigated when food was getting low or made roads when I needed more trade to generate extra science beakers. Even with 5 engineers, I just barely got my city fully developed in time to get 1 turn advances after superhighways.

1950 settler, 6 huts: 150g, 2 musketeers
1900 settler, barbarian leader, 150g, 2 huts: 100g
1850 bank, explosives, 5 huts: 100g, 2 crusaders, barbarian
All AI: give tech, share maps, 75g gift from Americans

>I wanted to research democracy now, but the timing was off, so I picked metallurgy instead. I wanted to learn it on an “o” year, to keep my celebration going.

1800 engineer, 4 huts: 100g, 2 crusaders, hides(d) to New York, 388g, hides(d) to Trondheim, 292g
1750 engineer, metallurgy, 3 huts: 150g, hides(d) to Trondheim, 292g, hides(d) to Trondheim again, 292g

>Leonardo’s was vital to upgrade my settlers to engineers and to upgrade caravans to faster moving freights later. I can now learn Democracy just in time to make oedo happy, so I pick it for research.

1700 Leonardo’s Workshop, 4 huts: 2 musketeers, 75g
1650 food, democracy, revolution, government to Democracy
5 huts: crusader, 100g, barbarian, hides(d) to New York, 418g
1600 Sir Isaac Newton’s College, hut: barbarian
1550 electricity, 2 huts: 50g, crusader, hides(d) to New York, 460g, spice(d) to Teotihuacan, 558g
1500 stock exchange, refrigeration, size 21, 3 huts: barbarian, 100g
All AI: give tech, share maps

>I like to time this giveaway of all technology soon after getting Democracy. Right afterwards, one or more of the AI start learning conscription and may actually succeed before I have to research it myself, many turns down the road. If one of them learns it, I may be able to trade for it later, saving a vital turn of research.

1450 supermarket, hut: 50g

>Now all city improvements and wonders are done, and advances every 2 turns with 80% science are now possible, but it’s a rush with those roads to keep up with the increasing beaker requirements.

1400 gold, steam engine, 2 huts: 25g, crusader
1350 silver

>Now is the time to make food, since nothing else is available or needed.

1300 food, railroad, hut: 50g
1250 food, hut: 50g
1200 food, industrialization, hut: 100g
1150 spice
1100 food, corporation, hut: 50g
1050 food, hut: barbarian
1000 food, refining
975 food

>Here I had a major barbarian invasion close to my city and busy engineers. I needed an extra diplomat to handle them all.

950 diplomat, steel

>WLTPD stops for some mysterious reason. I can’t figure it out.

925 food, WLTPD stops at 32
Americans: trade for conscription

>I wanted to get to automobile by 900, with a fully developed city, in order to cruise to space flight with 1 turn advances. Space flight is needed by 575, to be able to land before 1 A.D. My ally, the Americans, help me out by learning conscription.

900 food, WLTPD starts at 32, combustion,
spice(d) to Washington, 708g
All AI: give tech, share maps

>I give away all tech to the AI just before learning combustion, to put a buffer between their research efforts and flight. I have to give everything else away, as I have been doing periodically throughout the game, to keep my beaker requirements as low as possible.

875 food, automobile, gold to New York, 266g

>I am a turn late, but no longer need to learn conscription. My city is fully developed and now engineers start to disband so the city can celebrate to full size. I only have enough freights to sustain WLTPD until size 35, 2 citizens less than what I had hoped. I was very lucky with the silver to New York, as it arrived with its very last movement point with its critical gold and beaker boost.

850 superhighways, mass production, silver to New York, 562g
825 mass transit, electronics, size 35 (trade: 249 arrows, science: 1764 beakers)

>Now the string of 1 turn advances without the help of freights can begin. I am holding Darwin’s in reserve, just in case my city’s science alone is not enough.

800 spice, leadership, WLTPD cancelled
775 gold, tactics
750 food, machine tools
725 food, miniaturization
All AI: give tech, 400g gift from Americans
700 food, computers
675 research lab, flight (peak science: 1848 beakers)
650 food, radio
625 food, advanced flight

>rocketry took 100% science and my very last Einstein, and spice arrived in New York in time to bring in space flight by 575 B.C., just in time to make a B.C. landing possible. Whew!

600 food, rocketry, spice(d) to New York, 888g
575 silver, space flight, gold to New York, 296g
550 Apollo Program, plastics

>Now I had 11 food freights and only about 250 gold to start building my space ship. It’s a good thing I didn’t need Darwin’s, because I could not afford to build it. For the first time in the game, my city could start producing revenue, but I still had 5 things to learn and needed lots of gold quickly. No one was demanding silver, either.

500 nuclear fission
450 nuclear power
400 laser
350 Americans: give advanced flight and space flight, get 900g gift

>My allies, the Americans save me again and I send my silver to the most remote city.

325 superconductor, silver to Ulundi, 341g
225 fusion power
50 15-1-1-1-1-1 launch

>With so much work and thought invested in this game, I got a little bit defensive. Turns out I had no worries.

49 city walls
48 alpine troops
47 mobile warfare
46 armor
45 rifleman
44 rifleman
Carthaginians: trade for Communism
43 rifleman, combined warfare
42 armor
41 cruise missile
40 diplomat
39 SAM missile battery
38 helicopter, robotics
37 paratrooper
36 helicopter
35 SDI defense
34 factory
33 airport
32 stealth fighter
28 recycling
27 recycling center
23 espionage
22 spy
18 environmentalism
17 solar plant
14 arrival on Alpha Centauri

Scenario score: 259, 33% (my lowest ever)

It took every trick I knew and a lot of luck and precise play to pull this off.
[This message has been edited by solo (edited February 19, 2001).]

[Paul]

Well done, solo. By the way, was it you who said in the thread where you first mentioned the rivermap that you would like to have some extra spies and engineers at gamestart and see what ridiculously early landing dates could be achieved? Or was that someone else?

Anyway, I created two scenarios based on the rivermap. In the first one you start with two spies, two engineers and the default two settlers. In the second one I removed all the huts so that you would have to base your game on skill rather than luck. In that scenario I did give two horsemen so that you could look for the AI civs.

I played two games on the first scenario. The first time I got very unlucky (Invention as my 15th advance, way too early for a BC landing), but I was much luckier in my second attempt. I started the game in 2.42, but when I had finished Apollo I noticed that I couldn't build spaceship parts. When I saved it and continued in MGE I could build spaceship parts, so apparently that trick only works in MGE. I eventually landed in 164 BC. I lost one turn of spaceship construction because I had to build an armor to deal with a major barb uprising or I would have landed in 189 BC.

You can download a zip containing the two scenarios here. River1.scn is the scenario with the spies and engineers, river2.zip is the one with no huts.

[solo]

Paul

Yes, it was me requesting the spies and engineers, but that was before I figured out how to delay invention. Even with spies and engineers, I'm really impressed with your results! Please post your logs.

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by Paul on 02-16-2001 04:31 PM Anyway, I created two scenarios based on the rivermap. In the first one you start with two spies, two engineers and the default two settlers. In the second one I removed all the huts so that you would have to base your game on skill rather than luck. In that scenario I did give two horsemen so that you could look for the AI civs.

Yeah!




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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Juggler_Bob]

quote: Originally posted by solo on 02-16-2001 02:56 PM My biggest problem to solve in this game was finding a reliable way to delay the appear of invention from a hut, because I felt I needed every tech available from huts to have a chance to land before 1 A.D. The technique I discovered worked like a charm, and I will describe it in a later post.

OK, I give... I'll be the first to ask...

How do you bias hut-tipping against Invention?

-Bob

[Paul]

Yes, I'd also like to know more about that.

[Scouse Gits]

We are heating the tongs and polishing the thumb-screws ...
How the h*ll do you delay Invention ?

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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[Roman]

Wow, you people are good. How can you land on AC in BC?!?!

[arii]

Congratulation! Impressive. Even if it is a scenario it still takes quite a bit of skill to land at such a date. Do you mind sending me the scenario? e-mail(wvernier@sprintmail.com icq 27973218).
I also created a map to see how early I could land. It is a small map with 5 identical continents that each have 21 trade ressources. Each civ starts in a SSC spot that has 2 gold 2 spices and 12 river squarres. I removed the hutts. The difficulty with that scenario is that you can't get a tribute from any of the 4 AI (since they are on separate continents they do not fear you). I could not get a penny so far from the AI using that scenario, and actually had to give techs and tribute so that the AI don't attack your caravans ( if you spend all your gold before you talk to the AI they can't ask for tribute).
Using this ideal trade map with 4 AI, no hutts and getting no tribute, deity, raging hordes I was able to land in 895 AC. The strategy focussed on sending the appropriate trade comomdity to the different continent. I did not keep a log but have a few saves if anybody is interested in more details.
If anybody is interested in trying this scenario I can e-mail or icq it. Marcus also has a copy of it.

[solo]

I am running some tests to verfiy my technique for delaying invention, just to check out a few things. First test run got me everything except sanitation, same as in my game. When all results are ready I will post here as soon as possible. ETA: tonight or sunday.
A key part of it: study engineering, but only after you get the freebie from philosophy.

To those skeptical or baffled by a B.C. landing, I urge you to give OCC #23 a try. You'll get the idea it's possible pretty quick once you see how great a start the map and those huts give you. I still think Arii's game is more amazing.

Paul

Thanks for making up the 2 extra scenarios. I will definitely give #2 a try as soon as I finish up with the invention thing and other notes accompanying this game. Also, I want to give Ribannah a head start, and see what kind of pitiful score I have to try and beat!

In my game posted here, I also had lots of attention from barbarians. For the most part, I welcomed them, as it gave me cheap units to bribe with my diplomat who I made in 2950. I was always running short of units to disband to start my builds and for adding shields to wonders when I was short on gold. Later in the game, at 950, I had a major invasion right next to all my engineers who were rushing to irrigate and pave my city, so I had to sacrifice a few units to protect them and even build an extra diplomat, because there was too much red around Rome for just one to handle.

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by solo on 02-17-2001 11:07 AM I will definitely give #2 a try as soon as I finish up with the invention thing and other notes accompanying this game. Also, I want to give Ribannah a head start, and see what kind of pitiful score I have to try and beat!

I got Democracy before 1 AD in #2, Rome is size 21 and growing



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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[solo]

Well, it looks like my little theory about delaying invention is not as effective as it first seemed. The assumptions that led to my idea of a technique to delay invention were:

1) No tech can come from a hut until its prerequisites have been established, for example, invention can never come before engineering. This was verified by all my tests and game experience.

2) Given the tendency of this game to deny what you want, I experimented on the assumption that the tech you were currently studying was less likely to come from a hut than the others currently eligible. Not impossible, just somewhat less likely. This idea seemed to be confirmed by my experience in the game I described in the “no parts” topic, in which I deliberately researched invention, and came away with almost all the tech available from huts. This also tends to be my impression I am getting while playing the game, too, you don't often get from a hut the thing you are currently studying.


My technique was to expand this delaying tactic, by studying techs that preceded invention in the tech tree, the ones that had to be known before invention became eligible. I figured a little delay at each step along the way would accumulate into a big delay of the appearance of invention. It worked just like that in my game above. Below is a summary of techs received from huts, in the order they arrived. The ones in parentheses are the ones I was trying to “learn”. Each line marks a separate game turn.

alphabet
ceremonial burial, bronze working
mysticism, pottery, map making, ROME (horseback riding)
currency
masonry, seafaring, code of laws
mathematics, trade, astronomy, construction
warrior code, writing, horseback riding
(wheel) iron working
monarchy, feudalism, literacy, bridge building
chivalry, navigation
wheel
philosophy, republic, polytheism, physics
banking
(medicine)
magnetism, university
medicine(free via philosophy)
(engineering)
chemistry, theory of gravity
economics
monotheism, theology, atomic theory
engineering, invention

and only sanitation is left, which needs engineering as a prerequisite. Notice how the delays worked so nicely, long enough for all the other techs to roll in. Also notice that whenever philosophy appears, it is better to pick something you really need, rather than one of the delayers. After the freebie, it’s back to delaying tactics.


I tried another experimental game, to test the technique again. Here it is:

alphabet, horseback riding
ROME (wheel)
map making, masonry
pottery, warrior code, seafaring, mathematics, wheel,
(bronze working) writing, bronze working
(currency) ceremonial burial, iron working
code of laws, literacy, monarchy
mysticism, feudalism, astronomy, chivalry, currency
(construction) polytheism
navigation, trade, philosophy
construction (free via philosophy)
(engineering)
university, republic, medicine, monotheism
physics, theology
magnetism, banking, theory of gravity
atomic theory, bridge building, chemistry
economics, engineering
(invention) invention

Again, only sanitation was left. The technique worked like a charm, again. Note how especially effective engineering was as a delayer. An early experimental game I did not record also worked out this way, giving me everything except sanitation.


So just to be sure, I tried again:

alphabet
pottery, ROME (horseback riding)
map making, bronze working, horseback riding, masonry
(wheel)
mathematics
seafaring, wheel
(currency) warrior code
iron working, currency, writing
(construction) ceremonial burial, code of laws
trade, literacy, mysticism, polytheism
monarchy, philosophy
construction (free via philosophy)
(engineering) medicine, university
astronomy, bridge building, monotheism, theory of gravity
chemistry, engineering
(invention) invention

Oops, I’m still missing 10 techs, and the delays were not as effective this game, either.

So much for this technique. Anyone out there have a good recipe for crow that they could email to me!


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It is more pleasant to live in the corner of a housetop,
than in a wide house with a brawling woman.
[This message has been edited by solo (edited February 19, 2001).]

[Ribannah]

Solo, missing 10 techs is still better than average. There are only 11 prerequisites for Invention, after all, as opposed to 14 for Magnetism and 17 for Economics, etc.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[arii]

From my experience I often get the tech I am researching from a hutt when researching alphabet, writing and litteracy. Anybody feels that way?

[rah]

The one that i get most often when researching it, is code of law. Go figure.

RAH
Probably random. (of course we thought that about odeo years too)

[solo]

Arii & rah

My experience too, with alphabet, writing, literacy, code of laws and even horseback riding, but less often with other techs, like monarchy, or especially with engineering in my tests, so go figure why. It may have something to do with preserving the balance of tech categories among eligible hut candidates. I still don't think it is totally random, and believe that some sort of weighting of the probabilities is going on.

I have also noticed that techs from huts often come in pairs, such as chivalry soon after feudalism, or theology quickly after monotheism. Has anyone else noticed this?

Arii, I did email you the scenario as you requested, and hope you got it. If not, just download the .sav from OCC #23 and convert to a scenario, which is what I did.


All others

I have added my game notes and many comments to the log of my game above, which has been edited to include them.
[This message has been edited by solo (edited February 19, 2001).]

[Ribannah]

I just got ALL the pre-invention tech in #1 . Horseback Riding came quickly from a hut, but we kept our next research on The Wheel until there was little else left.
Theology immediately following Montheism etc. sounds familiar, what I do when I get a tech on the path to Invention is to seek out a hut on grassland next, to increase the chance that I get a unit instead of a tech. The next tech form a hut seems more random if there are other results in between.
There's yet another trick I use that may be helping, I will tell you about it later in order not to spoil your choice of general strategy for playing #1


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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[solo]

quote: Originally posted by arii on 02-17-2001 10:50 AM I also created a map to see how early I could land. It is a small map with 5 identical continents that each have 21 trade ressources. Each civ starts in a SSC spot that has 2 gold 2 spices and 12 river squarres. I removed the hutts.

arii

After making my map, I realized a city site with 4 gold is possible by varying the resource seed, which is even richer in trade. However, 2 spice worked out well enough for my purposes.

Ribannah

I'm not planning on trying river1.scn, because I was able to land without the spies or engineers, but would appreciate knowing what it is that you discovered so I could test it out, too. Don't let any cynics spoil your day, either. I believe the wheel thing happened, because I got similar result with engineering a few times, without using your refinements to the technique.

In river2, I kind of forgot to protect my city and lost it to the Zulus, so may give it another try. I think you got off to a better start, anyways. Democracy and size 21 by 1 A.D. is hard to do. Were you still using the 2 wine?

[La Fayette]

I think you people are playing on AC, while I almost desperately try to conquer the Mediterranean...(don't cry, it's my pleasure for the time being).
But, Solo, when reading your log I find 110 huts tipped before 3000 BC.
I didn't even imagin there might be 110 huts on a map...
WoW!

[Paul]

You really need a large map with all rivers to get that many huts before 3000 BC. Don't expect to come anywhere near that on a normal map.

[solo]

The map was 10,000 tiles, the maximum size that can be made with the MGE map editor, and with no oceans covering half the huts as in a "normal" map, and with rivers tripling normal movement, the distortion is magnified even more. Fun to try a few times to explore the potential, and still a challenge to land before AD in spite of the huge advantage given the player by all those huts and ideal city sites.

[East Street Trader]

Smashing log, Solo. The commentary and explanations are helpful and insightful.

And to hell with worrying about the odd correction. You've done this to share your insights with us, not to win some trivial boasting competition.

I've loved reading the other contributions in the thread too.

But one little wail of anguish.

We are starting to know too much about huts. I thrive on all the other knowledge which has built up here, ancient and modern. I have no problem making use of an edge from understanding combat better or eliminating a period of anarchy thanks to oedo's law. But there was always that little frisson in finding, and then opening a hut. I think I liked what I thought was the genuinely random nature of what huts added to the game.

But, then, you cannot hold back the advance of science.
Try as I might not to do so I have now recognised the hut pattern. And I know I'm going to give your trick a run out, Solo.

Ah me.

For what it's worth I think my experience supports your idea. Like others, I do get advances from a hut while I am researching them. But that is rare enough to make me think that there is something in the programming which make that less likely than that other advances will pop out. I even have an instinct that there may be an edge given to different classes of advance (although I cannot make that work by reference to what happened in your games). The reason I say that is that I often play quite a few games one after the other on maps generated on the same settings, playing the same colour civ and pursuing the same tech path. Once or twice I've felt strongly that there has been a pattern about the advances coming out of huts. For example, not long back I spent about a month getting Warrior Code and always Warrior Code as the first advance. I made no note, but your proposition makes me think I may have been in the process of researching the self same advance each and every time and, because of the similarity in maps/civ etc. I may also have had very similar existing knowledge each time.

Anyway, well done with the game. I suppose I agree with you that arii's effort stands as the most awesome of the fast finish achievements. But your posts in this thread are outstanding themselves for the care, and obvious pleasure, you have taken in sharing your experience and thoughts with us all. I have copied the thread and know that I will read over what you have said more than once so as to benefit from the depth and excellence of the insights afforded. Thank you and congratulations indeed.

[solo]

East Side Trader,

I think chance comes much more into play in regard to huts in a regular game, where there are so many less. Early exploration has always been my favorite part of the game, where I try to use a diplomat and trireme hopefully adding a bribed barbarian horseman to the team somewhere along the way.

There is a definite hut and special resources pattern, but both can be altered by changing the resource seed, which is done each game in computer generated maps. For example, notice how in some games a city can share four identical specials (e.g. 4 whales), and in others this does not occur. The hut pattern changes, too, so why bother with it? I enjoy the surprise of bumping into huts more than gaining a slight advantage by knowing the various patterns.

In one series of practice games, using the same start, I kept getting writing from huts, maybe because I always picked and learned alphabet first. But, not every time, so although the probabilities seem weighted, there is always some element of chance. This is one of the features built into the game that makes it so enjoyable. If events were too predictable, it would get a little boring. I've discovered that I can never be 100% sure about anything, except for the AI knack of always immediately finding and sinking my fully loaded transports in remote oceans.

Thankyou for the positive feedback, too! What I like so much about this site is the way everyone enjoys sharing things they have done or discovered about the game. My thanks to the many who devote so many hours researching different aspects of the game, because it is tedious work, from which I've gained a lot of useful tips. I know I'd rather just be playing.

[Ribannah]

Just landed on Alpha Centauri in 514 BC with Paul's first variation on OCC#23 (with huts). Take a seat

================================================== ==============
AC: -514

Monarchy: -
Republic: -3650
Democracy: -3250

Colossus: -3350
Copernicus: -3050
Shakespeare: -3250
Newton: -2950
Leonardo: -2600
Darwin: -1850
Hoover: -1550
SETI: -1350
Apollo: -1100

Trade routes: -2400, -1950, -1800

Size 12: -3150
Size 21: -2550
Size 35: -1150

Trade: -3650
Construction: -3600
Sanitation: -3450
Refrigeration: -2350

Automobile: -1800
Computers: -1400
Space Flight: -1150
============================================

-4000 N-Archers, N-Horsemen, 50
-3950 2 N-Chariot, 4 N-Horsemen, N-Archers, 25
-3900 starting to transform city square into hills
----- 4 N-Archers, 2x50, N-Horsemen, 25
-3850 3 N-Archers, 2x50, Masonry, Pottery, N-Chariot
-3800 starting to mine the city square
----- 5 N-Archers, 3 N-Chariot, Alphabet, Writing, 3x50, N-Horsemen, 100, Map Making
----- Rome (2 gold, 2 wine), di N-Archers, researching Horseback Riding
-3750 Settlers, 50, Code of Laws, Literacy, 50, Barb Horsemen-bribed->N
-3700 Settlers, 2 Settlers join Rome -> S3
----- 5x50, Mathematics, N-Chariot, Horseback Riding , Barb Horsemen-killed
----- The Republic , N-Horsemen, Seafaring, 25, Bronze Working, Revolution
-3650 Library, REPUBLIC, wine mined, di N-Archers
----- Warrior Code, Chariot, Ceremonial Burial, Currency, Iron Working
----- Barb Horsemen-killed, N-Chariot, N-Horsemen, Trade, researching The Wheel
-3600 Temple, We Love , Aztecs, Peace, 16 techs->Az, Ally , Embassy, di N-Archers
----- 3 N-Horsemen, 2 N-Legion, 3x50, Banking, Monarchy, Construction, 25, Mysticism
-3550 MarketPlace, S4, di N-Archers
----- Philosophy, 3 N-Legion, 2 N-Horsemen, Medicine, Polytheism , University
----- The Wheel , 4x50, Monotheism , Astronomy, Theory of Gravity, Bridge Building
----- Americans, Vikings, Carthagians, Peace, gave all 28 tech, no Allies
----- - 3x "mighty armies" , Carthagians send Spy home
-3500 Bank, S5, di N-Archers
----- N-Crusaders, 2 N-Legion, 4x50, 25, Navigation, Physics, Atomic Theory, Chemistry
----- Economics, Engineering, Feudalism, Magnetism
-3450 Stock Exchange, S6, wine mined, di N-Archers, 7x50, Chivalry, Sanitation, 3 N-Legion
----- Barb Horsemen-killed, Theology, Invention, N-Crusaders, 25
-3400 Colosseum, S7, di N-Archers
----- 9x50, 4 N-Legion, 2 Barb Horsemen-killed, N-Crusaders, 100
-3350 COLOSSUS, S8, city square mined, di Chariot
----- 3 N-Crusaders, 3 N-Legion, 25, 2x50, Barb Horsemen-killed
-3300 Aqueduct, S9, di N-Legion, sold Colosseum
----- 5 N-Crusaders, 11x50, 2 Barb Horsemen-killed, 4 N-Legion, 25
----- Zulus, Peace, 41 techs->Z, no Ally
-3250 SHAKESPEARE'S THEATRE, Democracy (<-Phi), DEMOCRACY, S10, di N-Archers
----- 7x50, Barb Horsemen-killed, 4 N-Crusaders, 4 N-Legion
----- 26 techs->Az, 1 tech->Z, 14 techs->V,Am,C
-3200 University, S11, Embassy(C), di N-Archers
----- 7x50, 2 N-Legion, 4 N-Crusaders, 2 Barb Horsemen-killed, 100
-3150 Hides, S12, di N-Archers, 10x50, 3 N-Crusaders, N-Legion, 2 Barb Horsemen-killed, 100
-3100 Sewer System, S13, gold mined, di 2 Legions, di 4 Archers
----- 8x50, 2 Barb Horsemen-killed, 3x25, 3 N-Legion, 3 N-Crusaders
----- Mongols, Peace, 42 techs->M, no Ally
-3050 COPERNICUS' OBSERVATORY, S14, di N-Legion
----- 2 N-Crusaders, 9x50, Barb Horsemen-killed, 25, 100, Barb Horsemen-bribed-N
-3000 Hides, S15, Embassy(V), di N-Chariot, di N-Crusaders, di 3 N-Legions
----- 2 N-Legion, 2x25, 4 N-Crusaders, 50
-2950 ISAAC NEWTON'S COLLEGE, S16, di N-Crusaders, 4x50, 2 N-Crusaders, 2x25, Barb Horsemen-killed, 100
-2900 Hides, Gunpowder, S17, di N-Crusaders, 5x50
-2850 Silver, S18, Embassy(Z), di N-Crusaders, 3x50, N-Musketeers, N-Crusaders
-2800 Hides, S19, di N-Legion, N-Musketeers, 50, Barb Horsemen-killed, N-Crusaders, 25
-2750 Wine, Explosives, We Love ends (needed the beakers), N-Musketeers
-2700 Gold, Embassy(Am), di N-Legion
-2650 Food, We Love , Embassy(M), di 9 N-Legions
-2600 LEONARDO'S WORKSHOP, Metallurgy, S20, di N-Crusaders
-2550 Food, S21, 3 techs->all
-2500 Food, S22, di N-Crusaders
-2450 Food, Electricity, S23, di N-Crusaders
-2400 Food, S24, Hides to Washington (d,400), di N-Crusaders
-2350 Hides, S25, Refrigeration, di N-Crusaders
-2300 Supermarket, We Love ends , di N-Crusaders
-2250 Hides, Steam Engine, Hides to Washington (d,418), di N-Crusaders
-2200 Hides, We Love , di N-Crusaders
-2150 Hides, Railroad, S26, Hides to Washington (d,279), 4 techs->all, di N-Crusaders, bribed Az->N Settlers
-2100 Hides, S27, di N-Crusaders
-2050 Hides, Industrialization, S28, Hides to Washington (d,284)
-2000 Hides, S29, di N-Crusaders
-1950 Hides, The Corporation, We Love ends , Wine to New York (d,552), di N-Crusaders
-1900 Hides, Refining, 3 techs->all, di 4 N-Crusaders
-1850 DARWIN'S VOYAGE -> Steel, Combustion, di N-Crusaders
-1800 Hides, Automobile, 3 techs->all, Silver to Carthage (238), di N-Crusaders
-1750 Superhighways, Electronics, Hides to Tenochtitlan (d,768), di N-Crusaders
-1700 Hides, Mass Production, We Love , Hides to New York (d,902), di 2 N-Crusaders
-1650 Mass Transit, Conscription, S30, 3 techs->all, Hides to Washington (438), di 4 N-Crusaders
-1600 Factory, Leadership, S31, Hides to Washington (445), di 8 N-Crusaders, di 2 N-Musketeers
-1550 HOOVER DAM, Tactics, S32, Gold to Zimbabwe (564), di N-Musketeers
-1500 Hides, Machine Tools, S33, 3 techs->all, Hides to Zimbabwe (573), di N-Musketeers, br Barb Cannon
-1450 Hides, Miniaturization, S34, Hides to Zimbabwe (573), di N-Musketeers
-1400 Hides, Computers, We Love ends , di Cannon, di 3 Crusaders, di 5 Knights
-1350 SETI PROGRAM, Flight, 3 techs->all, Hides to Zimbabwe (317), di N-Musketeers
-1300 Hides, Radio, Hides to Zimbabwe (334), di N-Musketeers
-1250 Hides, Advanced Flight, Hides to Zimbabwe (340), di N-Musketeers
-1200 Hides, Rocketry, We Love , 3 techs->all, Hides to Zimbabwe (351), di N-Musketeers
-1150 Silver, Space Flight, S35, sold Sewer System, di N-Musketeers
-1100 APOLLO PROGRAM, Plastics - we make 41 shields and have 682 gold - sold Aqueduct
-1050 S#01, Nuclear Fission, Hides to Zimbabwe (362), 3 techs->all - 44 shields
-1000 S#02, Nuclear Power, di N-Musketeers, di N-Knights - 45 shields - Americans: Mobile Warfare
-975 S#03, Hides to Zimbabwe (362), br 3 Barb Musketeers, br Barb Cannon
-950 S#04, The Laser, Hides to Zimbabwe (362)
-925 S#05, Superconductor, Hides to Zimbabwe (362) - 48 shields - di Cannon, di Musketeers
-900 S#06, Hides to Zimbabwe (362), br Barb Cannon, di Musketeers, di N-Knights, Zulus sneak attack & lose Crusaders
-875 S#07, Hides to Zimbabwe (362) - 52 shields - di Cannon
-850 S#08, Hides to Zimbabwe (345)
-825 S#09, Hides to Zimbabwe (362)
-800 S#10, Hides to Zimbabwe (368), traded for Mobile Warfare(Am), 2 techs->Am, Peace(Z), 4 techs->Z,V,Az,C,M
-775 S#11, Fusion Power
-750 S#12, grassland/r into hills/r, mined - 60 shields, di Musketeers
-725 S#13, Robotics, di N-Knights
-700 S#14, di N-Knights
-675 S#15, Recycling, di N-Knights
-650 C#01, 3 techs->all, di N-Knights
-625 C#02, Environmentalism, di N-Knights
-600 M#01, bribed American Armor , di N-Knights
-575 M#02
-550 LAUNCH 15-1-1-1-1-1, bribed second American Armor , the rest was easy
-514 ALPHA CENTAURI

------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[solo]

Very impressive, Ribannah!

You got lucky with Republic at 3650, but that was a neat trick to an early size 3, by joining settlers, an idea I would have tried if I had thought of it.

That was a great run out of wheel, too, and I'd appreciate knowing anything new you tried that might have contributed to its longevity.

Also, how did you manage to "discover" democracy exactly at 3250? Does setting science to zero until just before the "o" year arrives delay the free advance due to philosophy?

I see that you also like to get rid of legions (nifty 20 shield disbanders) just before they are demoted to less costly musketeers with Leonardo's!

Your approach was quite different than mine, as you concentrated more on building up shield production and gold revenues early, and started caravans and trade later. I was not able to build the crucial wonders as quickly as you, and you were a few turns quicker to that first earned advanced. Did pollution give you any trouble? I deliberately kept my shields low to avoid it.

Now I wonder how your approach would compare with mine if you were to try OCC #23 again without the spies and engineers.

Again, very well done, just about the perfect game.

[Paul]

Yes, setting science to zero will delay the free advance when you get philosophy from a hut. I am also playing the river1.scn at the moment and I had also thought of the size-one settler trick to get an early size-three city. I got engineering a bit sooner than I had hoped, but I was lucky after that, because I still got quite a lot of other advances before invention showed up. But I didn't get republic as early as Ribannah, so I had to wait an extra 4 turns to start celebrating. I also didn't get hides as an option for caravans, so I will probably not be able to get to AC quite as fast. I should probably try this again at the two wine & two gold site.