The Lone Engineer at Work (started by Gastrifidis, stolen by SlowThinker)

SlowThinker · February 9, 2001, 18:44

I think that this post need a separate thread:

originally posted by
Gastrifitis
Settler
Waterloo, IA, US
Feb 2001
to Civ2-Strategy: Apolyton's "Great Library" (Page 3)

posted February 08, 2001 13:40

Hi!
I can't believe I've been playing Civ since the original came out, and didn't know about this site. This is a fantasy camp. I've been reading until my eyes blistered, mostly off this topic. Now I have lots of plans for playing the game in ways that never interested me before, or I didn't know about. In the spirit of contributing, I've expanded on something mentioned in one of the threads, and added analysis. Maybe it will be useful in the recommended Civ II FAQ. I hope this is based off of the original rules.txt file; make changes as necessary.

*** The Lone Engineer at Work***

This is a listing of all the times required for a single Engineer to complete a given task. Settlers would take approximately twice as long for the tasks they can compete. In each case, time is measured from the turn you give the Engineer orders to the next turn the Engineer can receive instructions. So, if you tell an Engineer to build a road on grassland, the road will be done instantly. But the Engineer cannot take further orders until next turn; it takes one turn of the Engineer's life to complete the task.

TURNS TASK

1* Build a road on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
2* Build a road on forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier
3* Build a road on a mountain

2* Build a railroad on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
4* Build a railroad on forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier
6* Build a railroad on a mountain

* Building roads or railroads on squares with a river always takes one extra turn.

3 Irrigate/farmland grassland/plains/desert
5 Irrigate/farmland tundra/hills

3 Clear a forest (plains)
8 Clear a swamp/jungle (grassland)

5 Reforest grassland
8 Reforest plains/swamp/jungle

3 Mine a desert
5 Mine hills/mountain
8 Mine a glacier

10 Transform grassland/plains/desert/tundra (to hills/grassland/plains/desert)
20 Transform forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier (to grassland/plains/plains/plains/tundra)
30 Transform mountain (to hills)

2 Clear pollution/build fortress/build airbase on any square

Now, what do we learn from this? Well, let's say you have a forest square and you want it to be grassland. The Transform command will get you there--in a mere 20 turns. On the other hand, you could clear the forest, then transform the plains. If you do, you'll save 7 turns. Or let's say you have a fruit (jungle) square and want to make it a wheat (plains) square. Again, the Transform command takes 20 turns. But if you reforest the jungle (silk), then clear the forest, you get the wheat square 9 turns faster.

Obviously, some Transform commands are relatively worthless. But the timing for transformation seems to be based on the movement penalty for a square. Probably not worth changing. However, by going into the rules.txt file, you could change the results of the transform command. For example, you could make forests transform to mountain squares (gold!), or make jungle squares transform to desert (the Sahara is coming!). You can even make squares transform to ocean and back. Such a command would cost an Engineer or a ship every time it was carried out, but might be worth it anyway. If you don't feel like changing the rules.txt file, just remember that the direct route isn't always the best one when it comes to transforming.

SlowThinker · February 9, 2001, 18:46

Ok:
I will post my tests too:

*** The Lone Settler at Work***

In each case, time is measured from the turn you give the Settler orders to the next turn the Settler can receive instructions. So, if you tell an Settler to build a road on grassland, the road will be done in 1 turn. But the Settler cannot take further orders until next turn; it takes one turn of the Settlers's life to complete the task.

Notes:
1. Settler can't interrupt his work immediately. If you click him, then he will be available next turn. You should (re)set the order and then click him every turn if you want to be able to move him anytime if needed (IMHO settler's work won't be lost).

2. If you break the work, the settler "brings" his undergone turns of work to a new working square.

3. Up to three settlers may work on one square simultaneously.

TURNS TASK

2* Build a road on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
4* Build a road on forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier
6* Build a road on a mountain

?* Build a railroad on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
?* Build a railroad on forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier
?* Build a railroad on a mountain

3* Build a fortress on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
4* Build a fortress on other squares

* I didn't do any test on a river. I don't know if "Building roads or railroads on squares with a river takes one extra turn".

5 Irrigate grassland?/plains?/desert? (i didn't write down what I irrigated exactly)

10 Mine hills
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited February 14, 2001).]

Scouse Gits · February 9, 2001, 19:54

Thank you SlowThinker - this did need a thread of its own.

Our two ha'p'orth - only two Settlers/Engineers can normally act on a single square - however, Xin has (amongst his many wise offerings to this forum) demonstrated that you can, by careful micromanagement) get as many active Engineer type units working full belt upon any one square as you like - given a little more time I could dig out a reference, but I fear at this moment our time is limited - I have a curfew (SG[1]) my lady will tear off my bits if I am too late!
__________________
The SGs in red - Cotes du Rhone LaFayette!

Theben · February 10, 2001, 00:27

Not sure about everything that was posted, but I believe farmland upgrades only require 2 turns to complete for engineers.

Another thing to note is that settlers actually take 3 turns to complete a road (grassland, etc.), because it must 1st move onto the square where the road will be placed. Sometimes it will even require 4 turns if the settler uses fractional points to attempt to move onto the square. Since engineers have a move of 2 they WILL get onto the square if adjacent or using up to 2/3rds movement. Then they can still complete the task, even with solely 1/3rd move left. Course you knew that already, but I still find it interesting how much of an upgrade engineers truly are over settlers.

SlowThinker · February 10, 2001, 07:31

quote:

Originally posted by Theben on 02-09-2001 11:27 PM
Another thing to note is that settlers actually take 3 turns to complete a road (grassland, etc.), because it must 1st move onto the square where the road will be placed.

Sometimes a settler takes 15 turns because the square is placed very far

I think you cannot mix a real time needed for construction of the road (it is fixed) and logistical expenses (may vary from 0 to anything).

An example of logistical expenses = 0:
A settler moving to his desired destination and working "on the road".

Ribannah · February 10, 2001, 08:38

quote:

Originally posted by Theben on 02-09-2001 11:27 PM
Not sure about everything that was posted, but I believe farmland upgrades only require 2 turns to complete for engineers.

Farmland is 5 turns for Settlers, and therefore 2½ for Engineers. If you still have your original NON-Settlers plus two Engineers, you can be very efficient by having the Settlers aid first one Engineers unit, then the other.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

Ribannah · February 10, 2001, 08:42

quote:

Originally posted by SlowThinker on 02-09-2001 05:44 PM
3 Clear a forest (plains)

This takes 4 turns for Settlers, and therefore 2 for Engineers (not counting the turn it costs to move to the square, if there is no road). Some of the other results don't seem right as well, maybe you can check them?

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

Ming · February 10, 2001, 11:09

quote:

I didn't do any test on a river. I don't know if "Building roads or railroads on squares with a river takes one extra turn".

Yes, it does take longer for a settler to build a road/bridge on a river square...

Gastrifitis · February 10, 2001, 12:33

THEFT! I shall board my galleons and plunder your cities!

Just kidding. This was a good idea. I forgot to include the tip about Settlers and Engineers working together because I always make sure to get Leo's Shop, it's a number one priority for me. So I never have Settlers and Engineers working together unless I bribe a Settler. But yes, irrigation takes 2 and a half turns for an Engineer. Clearing a swamp takes 7 and a half turns, but who builds a road there first anyway?

SlowThinker · February 10, 2001, 14:57

I am waiting.

Not kidding.

I am still waiting who will steal "my concept" of thread Info: diplomat and spies.
Gastrifitis, don't you want to pick all information concerning this topic (i think Scouse Gits will post some link yet) and to build and update some tabular/synoptic post?

Theben · February 11, 2001, 05:44

quote:

Originally posted by SlowThinker on 02-10-2001 06:31 AM
I think you cannot mix a real time needed for construction of the road (it is fixed) and logistical expenses (may vary from 0 to anything).

Sure you can. What happens EVERY TIME a settler moves from one square to another? It uses all it's movement, assuming no road exists in both the starting & destination squares (or rr's), and it's turn is over. If it's an engineer moving to a grassland/plains/tundra/desert square & starting from an adjacent square, and it may still act. the logistical expenses of a settler moving onto a non-roaded/rr'ed square are 1 to anything, not 0 to anything. That '1' adds up.

SlowThinker · February 11, 2001, 11:51

Theben,
do you take into consideration following Gastrifidis's assumption?

quote:

In each case, time is measured from the turn you give the Engineer orders to the next turn the Engineer can receive instructions. So, if you tell an Engineer to build a road on grassland, the road will be done instantly. But the Engineer cannot take further orders until next turn; it takes one turn of the Engineer's life to complete the task.

Paul · February 11, 2001, 14:54

I'm 99% certain that farmland takes 3 turns for an engineer and there is no difference between rivered and unrivered terrain.

geofelt · February 11, 2001, 16:57

It has been my thought that barring Xin's micromanagement technique, only two engineers or two settlers can be effectively be used to speed up a task. More does not help. True?
Also, the work seems to accumulate in the unit, not on the land. If a settler is irrigating land, and I interrupt to move him to safety for a few turns to avoid a barbarian attack, then he will complete the task as soon as he is returned. This technique can be used to build a fortress in one turn.

SlowThinker · February 11, 2001, 18:21

Gastrifitis,

quote:

First of all, I really was just kidding about the theft. I was incredibly pleased to see my little contribution get its own thread started by someone else. I'm sure a discussion about diplomats and spies deserves to be treated similarly.

I really don't know who is/was kidding.
I swear I talk seriously now: I was kidding when I declared I wasn't kidding.

About dips/spies:
My weak english is often confusing. I just wanted to say that it would be commendable if you would arrange results (or partial results) of this thread into some tabular form (for example, something like my dip/spy thread).

quote:

Second, I ignored arrival time on purpose. ...

I my tests, I counted "net" time of work: I counted the turn I gave order and I didn't count the turn settler was free (blinking).
I suppose you too (?).

geofelt,

quote:

Also, the work seems to accumulate in the unit, not on the land.

I agree. I would skip "seems" yet.

Do you have a link to Xin's work?
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited February 11, 2001).]

Gastrifitis · February 12, 2001, 01:29

OK, let's put some things in order.

First of all, I really was just kidding about the theft. I was incredibly pleased to see my little contribution get its own thread started by someone else. I'm sure a discussion about diplomats and spies deserves to be treated similarly.

Second, I ignored arrival time on purpose. The idea behind my post originally was to explore getting from A to B in terrain type, (forest to grassland) and compare one-step to two-step processes. For this explanation, I needed to focus on what happened after the Engineer got there, not how long it took to arrive. But, obviously, arrival time can eat an Engineer's life too.

Last, I should explain how I got my info. I created a map with an array of each terrain type, enough of each to test each thing you can do to a square (I thought). Then I started a game on it, and turned on cheat. I gave myself each Engineer technology, then put an Engineer on each square, and roads and pollution as necessary. ( I had to stagger pollution, or terrain would have changed.) Then I put them to work, and observed how many turns it took from 4000 BC. The only thing I forgot to do was farmland; I thought I remembered it took as long as irrigation. But Theben may be right, maybe it takes 2 turns. I'll have to retest. If you want to try this, you don't have to do so many river squares; I'm positive that only roads and railroads are affected.

debeest · February 14, 2001, 01:34

Right, five settler turns or 2.5 (3) engineer turns to upgrade to farmland.

Right, normally only two units can work a square productively at once (although the game won't tell you you're wasting your time by adding more).

SlowThinker, your English may not be perfect, but your thinking appears to be excellent. If anyone complains, tell 'em you'll only accept complaints in Czech.

William Keenan · February 14, 2001, 16:32

The amount of time required to irrigate or mine any given terrain square is listed in the @TERRAIN section of the rules.txt file.

Desert: Irrigate 5 turns, Mine 5 tuns
Plains: Irrigate 5 turns, Change to Forest 15 turns
Grassland: Irrigate 5 turns, Change to Forest 10 turns
Forest: Change to Plains 5 turns
Hills: Irrigate 10 turns, Mine 10 tuns
Mountains: Mine 10 tuns
Tundra: Irrigate 10 turns
Glacier: Mine 15 tuns
Swamp: Change to Grassland 15 turns, Change to Forest 15 turns
Jungle: Change to Grassland 15 turns, Change to Forest 15 turns

Upgrading Irrigation to Framland requires the same amount of time as irrigation.

Transforming all terrain types requires 20 turns for engineers.
[This message has been edited by William Keenan (edited February 21, 2001).]

SlowThinker · February 14, 2001, 19:53

A new slowthinker's theft:

posted by
rah
King
Ferretown CST
b.02-15-99
to Civ2-Strategy: damn, deity is hard (Page 1)

"P.S. Sometimes when you tell a settler or engineer to stop work they do so at once and you can move them in the same turn. More commonly they stop work that turn but can't be moved til the next (hence the OCC debacle). I'd be interested if anyone has a view on what determines the difference."

It's very simple. It's the order of movement. If you notice early in the game, with two settlers. Settler A flashes to move first then Settler B moves. The next turn the order is reversed, Settler B then A. If the settler that is working has already cycled, his turn has been used to continue working. If you click on him before his turn in the rotation, you may move him.

As long as the settler isn't first in the rotation for the turn. If you click on him as the turn starts, you will always be able to move him. You may artifically change the order by going to into a city screen at the end of your turn (or in between turns in MP, or during the building announcements at the beginning of a turn) and activate a unit. That unit will jump to the top of the rotation at the beginning of the turn. Now before you move that unit, click on the settler. You will be able to move him.

RAH
Also a good way to cancel go-to commands when taking over for an AI in a MP game.

SlowThinker · February 14, 2001, 19:55

rah,

quote:

<font size=1>Originally posted by rah on 02-14-2001 01:48 PM</font>
As long as the settler isn't first in the rotation for the turn. If you click on him as the turn starts, you will always be able to move him.

I didn't know you may "awake" the settler in the same turn. But you may "awake" the settler one turn in advance too (by clicking on him). But then, he don't get to the top.

I tried couple of tests:
1. Units don't rotate, they are arranged into a line. "Normally" you go through this line to one edge, you "rebound" back, you return to the second edge and so on.
2.If you end the turn, you start new turn with last active unit (I will call it A next) flashing, then you go to one edge (usually against the direction of last turn, but it is not a rule), then you jump back to A, skip it and go to the second edge. Then you continue "normally".
3.If you click a unit that is not active, then the process is ussually interrupted only: it continues normally after giving an order to the unit. But it is not a rule.
4.If you set an order to a settler then things may stop work "normally".

Sentences "But it is not a rule" mean I don't know how it works.
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited February 14, 2001).]

debeest · February 21, 2001, 01:38

Mr. Keenan: transformation actually takes 40 settler turns or 20 engineer turns, yes?

Ribannah · February 21, 2001, 11:01

Only for Glaciers and Mountains AFAIK.
Otherwise it's half. Two Engineers can change grassland into hills in only 5 turns, very helpful in OCC games!

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

William Keenan · February 21, 2001, 12:04

quote:

Originally posted by debeest on 02-21-2001 12:38 AM
Mr. Keenan: transformation actually takes 40 settler turns or 20 engineer turns, yes?

Yes debeest, you are right. I was mistaken.

Thank you for noticing that. I will correct it.

Campo · March 14, 2001, 08:55

quote:

Originally posted by SlowThinker on 02-09-2001 05:44 PM
You can even make squares transform to ocean and back. Such a command would cost an Engineer or a ship every time it was carried out, but might be worth it anyway.

I experimented with this but couldn't get it to work. I edited Rules.txt so ocean could be changed to swamp. When I went into the game, the "transform" command then appeared on the menu, but when I tried to use it I got the message: "That function cannot be performed here."

The way I tried to use it was by putting an Engineer on a boat, activating him, and then choosing the transform command. There was no other way to get him onto the ocean square, and I couldn't leave him there and move the boat away.

What's the trick to make this work?

La Fayette · March 15, 2001, 11:07

quote:

Originally posted by debeest on 02-21-2001 12:38 AM
Mr. Keenan: transformation actually takes 40 settler turns or 20 engineer turns, yes?

Are your settlers able to transform terrain?

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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

La Fayette · March 15, 2001, 11:18

My settlers can irrigate and mine (which can sometimes transform the terrain, for example irrigating a forest means transforming it to plains).
They cannot transform (for example turn grassland to hill). Can yours do that, debeest?

BTW has anyone established a list summing up the results of transforming special squares (such as irrigating a pheasant and getting a buffalo)?

Scouse Gits · March 15, 2001, 12:39

quote:

Originally posted by La Fayette on 03-15-2001 10:18 AM
BTW has anyone established a list summing up the results of transforming special squares (such as irrigating a pheasant and getting a buffalo)?

IIRC is this info not on the Civilization Poster that comes with the game? If not it has certainly been given on these threads somewhere -- It is a small piece of research that I shall undertake if required - rather than ask that the testing laboratories of Albi or Praha be reactivated (considering the number of innocent young spies that have died for the true cause in those laboratories - they probably have 'War Grave' status)

...

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Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited March 15, 2001).]

SlowThinker · March 15, 2001, 19:05

quote:

Originally posted by La Fayette on 03-15-2001 10:18 AM
BTW has anyone established a list summing up the results of transforming special squares (such as irrigating a pheasant and getting a buffalo)?

Inca's thread "Distilled Civ Tips and Notes (Page 1)" http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000880.html?76
Sten Sture's answer posted January 13, 2000 17:05

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All knowledge stored at Apolyton must be sorted!

Marquis de Sodaq · March 16, 2001, 01:36

To determine what will result from your alteration of a special, simply peek at the terrain1.gif file. A special always remains in the same column, regardless of the terrain type. This is good to know if you have a particular special you wish to create.

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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

March 16, 2001, 09:59

quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 02-09-2001 06:54 PM
Our two ha'p'orth - only two Settlers/Engineers can normally act on a single square - however, Xin has (amongst his many wise offerings to this forum) demonstrated that you can, by careful micromanagement) get as many active Engineer type units working full belt upon any one square as you like - given a little more time I could dig out a reference, but I fear at this moment our time is limited - I have a curfew (SG[1]) my lady will tear off my bits if I am too late!

Does someone know how this Xin's trick of getting more than two engineers/settlers work at the same square works? It would be very useful in OCC games if you have for example two settlers and one engineer and want to clear pollution during one turn.

Also transforming a mountain to a hill quickly would be nice..

Btw, is there any way to create mountains? A gold mountain would be cool to have sometimes in OCC.