Most important learning for improving my game

[lord of the mark]

like many here i am a beginner deity player (able to win occasionally against the AI on deity, 1970 or later) I tend toward a mix of perfectionism and conservative expansionism. Lately have used matthews guide to help at start.

It seems like there are so many things to learn in order to become a better player. Oedo years, trade bonus values, incremental rush buying techniques, refined research strategies, terrain transformation strategies, riot factors, etc. What do you suggest as the most important one to learn? What was the key learning that helped you go from beginner deity to advanced deity play?

Lord of the Mark

[DaveV]

One word - ICS. I know many consider it an abomination, but I think everyone should play at least one pure ICS game. You will learn that the game can be won by pure expansion. It also teaches you how to live without city improvements that you've heretofore considered indispensable, and how not to fear Elvis. Most of the good players expand like rabbits in the early game; that's the only way to outstrip the AIs' production advantages.

[George Garrett]

I would add to that excellent advice, use caravans only for Wonders in the game's early stages, save trading for later,when you're more or less consolidated and settled, and the farthest cities have grown faraway, and fat.
My favourite example: ICS as Brits on large world map 8-9 cities on British Isles, as many on Europe as AI allows, then, when all secure, trade with the U.S.A.who, while you've been building Wonders, have built many cities, each far more prosperous than yours,and yielding high prices, by then, for the stuff you send over.

[lord of the mark]

quote: Originally posted by DaveV on 03-29-2001 02:14 PM One word - ICS. I know many consider it an abomination, but I think everyone should play at least one pure ICS game. You will learn that the game can be won by pure expansion. It also teaches you how to live without city improvements that you've heretofore considered indispensable, and how not to fear Elvis. Most of the good players expand like rabbits in the early game; that's the only way to outstrip the AIs' production advantages.

No abomination - it seems artifical and ahistorical, but no more so than OCC . I guess the question is will trying it contribute to my middle of the road game? you seem to indicate so,and i will give it a try.

LOTM

[smilo]

It can indeed be overwhelming trying to apply all the detailed advices you find on this website, but for becoming a better civ player there is one golden rule : one step at a time. Don't try to apply all the advices in one go; begin with some of the major (broader) rules and see what differences it makes. Apply more detailed advices once you have mastered the more high-level once.

for me these are the basic principles of becoming a good player for the early part of the game :

- find a good site for your first city (resources are important). This does not nessesarily needs to be a site that can sport a big city. In the beginning you need good production and trade. So build your city where you can find a decend number of resources for shields and trade arrows
- expand rapidly, building settlers and founding new cities should be a prime target. Build you first cities close toghether, they can even overlap. This will allow you to build new cities faster, and will allow you to upgrade the land more rapidly (the squares are close toghether).
- do not underestimate the power of roads, they give you good trade income and can allow units to travel faster, but be carefull don't build roads on areas you do not use if they are for trade income.
- don't start irrigating all over the place, anly thos squares that you need (keep in mind that building a settler unit will decrease you city size by one).
- explore the world and chase goodie huts (they do make a big difference)
- plan your research carefully. Try to get to monarchy as fast as possible.
- keep your people happy : you can do this by building the hanging gardens wonder. Without this wonder it is difficult to expand very rapidly. A growing civ will require a higher form of governement to keep your people happy (one of thez reasons to swich to monarchy asap)
- experiment with temples and units in a city, you'll notice that you can do without temples longer than you expect.
- don't ever go for a republic governement, it's not worth it.

Hope this is helpfull ...

[Edward]

I agree with smilo: "one step at a time." In playing Civ, I found that I couldn't/didn't implement or fully understand the next concept until I was "ready" to learn it in some sort of Eastern mystical way. Like all things, only practice prepared me to go to the next level of understanding.

One of my big steps was switching my early game from lots of terrain and city improvement (making wonderful cities) to rapid expansion (making lots of crappy cities). As everyone so far has mentioned, rapid early expansion quickly gives you a leg up in all areas of gameplay.

This first big step did lead to a need to know the best way to manage unhappiness in a particular city and overall (a wonder? a settler? a cheap martial law unit? a temple?)

Another big step was realizing that trade routes are not only worthwhile, but can drastically improve your game. In mid game I reach a point where all my cities are pumping out caravans as quickly as possible. The reason is that every time you establish a new trade route, you get a beaker bonus to your research.

[Scouse Gits]

You must control the pace of the game. Once you let the AI do that - you are doomed. So, you have to keep busy, building cities (yes I am a fan of ICS in its many forms), exploring, hut finding, swapping techs, trading and being ruthless when necessary.

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SG(2)

[Sitnam]

I agree. One step at a time. With ICS as the first step. It was one of the biggest steps to my game. Though I'm not an expert I'm still pretty decent.

Also I have read here at apolyton for at least a year and some of the older advice was a lot more helpful to mid game.

Like that the two most important wonders for out and out winning are gardens and the chapel. After these two are in the bag the game is as good as won. Old news probably but I dont come by much any more : )

Try a game like this:
1: ICS all the while focusing on gardens and chapel
2: While your building chapel get a temples in all your cities
3: Grow em all to size 8 under republic using 50% or more luxuries.

This advice is not just for the average player but new people who want a jump start. Doing this will help you refine your skills signifigantly, by letting you see where you need work.

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by DaveV on 03-29-2001 02:14 PM One word - ICS. I know many consider it an abomination, but I think everyone should play at least one pure ICS game.

Not an abomination, Dave, not at all (as far as I 'm concerned).
Civ 2 is a freeworld. Some people love building one city, some people love building hundreds. I suppose that some people love cheating by any possible means. It's OK for me, as long as they don't insult those who don't play the same game or come back bragging after cheating.
I think I'm going to follow your advice and play one ICS game before 2002.
BTW, have you tried OCC? (I confess I haven't felt like it yet).


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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by smilo on 03-29-2001 04:54 PM - don't ever go for a republic governement, it's not worth it.

smilo, I agree with the rest of your advice to new beginners at deity level.
But I must disagree with the way you write this one.
I would agree with "try to master growth under Monarchy before having a try at Republic" (I have personally won dozens of very interesting games without HG and ever switching to Rep).
But IMHO it is wrong to state that Republic is not worth it. If you manage to master it, it can give a tremendous boost to your civ in a few turns.

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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[DaveV]

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 03-30-2001 08:20 AM BTW, have you tried OCC?

Yes, with less than stellar results. But I learned a lot about the game, like the value of superhighways. The game has so many facets that you can ignore some and still be very successful, but a well-rounded player should at least be familiar with all aspects of the game.

That said, I don't really enjoy the passive style of play required for good OCC results. I'd rather send out a military expedition than a trade mission. Next target is the Rome scenario .

[Scouse Gits]

Edward - I think you are right on the money ...

For my own suggestion, the easiest way to win at deity is to go for either of the extremes OCC or ICS - neither may be your eventual metier - both have a large degree of artificiality - but IMHO they both lead to substantially easier games than those that more closely simulate reality -- they also have another major advantage -- they have manuals - DaveV's Guide to ICS and the Paulicy for OCC -- as far as I know no-one has yet come up with the same level of prescription for a multi-city perfectionist style.

Whatever you choose - have FUN - that is the only rule!

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Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[smilo]

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 03-30-2001 08:33 AM smilo, I agree with the rest of your advice to new beginners at deity level. But I must disagree with the way you write this one. I would agree with "try to master growth under Monarchy before having a try at Republic" (I have personally won dozens of very interesting games without HG and ever switching to Rep). But IMHO it is wrong to state that Republic is not worth it. If you manage to master it, it can give a tremendous boost to your civ in a few turns.

From a standpoint of merely winning at deity, you might be right. But In my experience skipping the republic and going for fundi is a strategy that has far better results. I must admid though that this is not an advice for merely winning at deity, but an advice for getting big scores. Then again maybe I have lost sight of republic and never tried to get the max out of it.

[solo]

Just play, play, play. With practice you'll get real good and all the very excellent advice above will become second nature.

[Edward]

quote: Originally posted by DaveV on 03-30-2001 08:40 AM The game has so many facets that you can ignore some and still be very successful, but a well-rounded player should at least be familiar with all aspects of the game.

So true. That's what's great about Civ. You can enjoy a game without knowing all the details. You can start on a lower level and totally ignore trade routes, high level city improvements, shifting the city squares you work, exchanging techs with the AI, learning all the combat factors, etc. and still have a successful and enjoyable game. There are many layers and options that you don't need to understand in order to play. After you're comfortable with what you know and a lot of the decisions become almost subconscious, you can start to explore a new element of Civ that you hadn't looked at previously.

Brilliant game design (despite it's numerous flaws).

[debeest]

I am perhaps just a step ahead of you. My last game I wiped out the next-to-last enemy city in 1798, but that's about a hundred years ahead of my previous best.

My deity game improved dramatically when I began to push the expansion. I'd always striven to build really good cities, placed to allow complete growth without overlap or wasted spaces. I still haven't managed to break the bounds and explode into Dave's true ICS strategy, but I believe that if I did, my game would improve even more. Why? Civ is all about choosing the right investments with the highest payoffs. On average, nothing pays off better than a new city, because that new city is the source of all production, including other new cities. Even if you don't want to build a lot of cities and get stuck with lots of management, you should still probably build your first 6-12 cities as fast as possible, even though it means forgoing lots of other stuff that has great value. Cities have greater value.

My power skyrockets in the Middle Ages when I've finally got Michelangelo and trade enhancers in place so that I can switch to republic and celebrate most of my cities every turn. I don't hurry to get to republic, but explosive growth under representative government is a huge factor in my game.

If you haven't already, study happiness. Outraged citizens become valuable when you treat them well; they turn happy with just two luxuries, rather than four (or six, as you might expect). This allow your cities to celebrate and grow with relatively few luxuries. This is one of the biggest advantages of huge expansion: more outraged citizens who readily become happy.

But what do I know? Many people here say that fundamentalism is by far the easiest way to win; I've never played it. Most people seem to think that trade caravans are the most important thing in the game; I almost never build a caravan for anything but to build a Wonder from. I've got to work on my roundedness.

[War4ever]

No matter what your style.... you need to find a devine spot for you capital and pump out both HG and Colossus. While HG isn't really necessary, it acts as the colossus until the colossus is built. The two together are virtually unstoppable and allow you to progress quickly as well as expand exponentially.

ALL other cities are expanding and for me that means quasi ics. I like room for the core cities to grow so i don't like to much overlap. Once i have about 12 cities 8 will build caravans until later in the game.

Each city is supporting a worker for roads and or irrigation..... the other four cities keep expanding. Any civs on your continent must be expelled from existance when they start getting in the way.

I avoid large wars and any alliance with civs on different continents. However i will trade for maps to allow trade.

The SSC is key and i avoid the philo route as long as possible as i want Copernicus before that. I also avoid the feudal route as long as possible as well.

You want invention quickly..... then mono...... then you have your choice.... and this depends on how close your neighbors are and whether or not you have contained them.

I don't break records with this strat...... conquest or AC... but i do win EVERY time against the ai....

Now ..... depending on your world you will have to make some sort of modifications..... in fact its quite easy to win without any wonders except apollo......

Best advice i can give against the ai...... CARAVANS...... just keep pumping them out along with settlers in your outer cities.

The other advice i can echo is to not allow the ai to controll the game...... as the intelligent Scouse Gits 1&2 have stated before me.

Avoid waiting for the production to build city improvements.... i often find that rushbuilding them is more effective and remember not to waste money on an investment that doesn't pay off immediately


[This message has been edited by War4ever (edited April 02, 2001).]

[Smash]

You can build Gardens and Collosus in different cities.It is then very easy(20% to start it and usually can be cut back to 10% once started) for the Collosus city to celebrate "we love" in Monarchy early and that is very good.Trade routes between the 2 and you are off and running.You almost have 2 SSCs for the first half of the game.I can't seem to get Trade soon enough these days.

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by DaveV on 03-30-2001 08:40 AM Next target is the Rome scenario .

Is it true?
I'm pretty sure you will love it (and I shall be happy to hear from you afterwards).

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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by solo on 03-30-2001 07:36 PM Just play, play, play. With practice you'll get real good and all the very excellent advice above will become second nature.

...and perhaps after 1000 years training you manage to land in 775AD
(your piece of advice is the soundest I read on this forum in 2001)

[Scouse Gits]

Ah LaFayette, I feared we had lost you in the 'upgrade' - SG(2) believed the site was down and we have yet to hear from EST and ST ...

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Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[geofelt]

Do not be afraid of the AI. Learn to ask for tribute. The rules are these:
The civ must not be hostile, or you will get war.
The civ must be on the same continent as you.
The date must be before 1750.
You must not be in democracy or republic.
The civ should have enough gold to give (100 or more)
If you get war, don't panic, just ignore them for three turns, and peace is likely. If the AI offers a cease fire first, consider rejecting it; they likely will offer you gold. If you take the gold, ignore the offer of peace, and you will get the same amount(if they have any left) for peace.
The point of this is to develop a cavalier and agressive approach.