Do we need the unit-trigger for Golden Age?

[Ralf]

The team at Firaxis have added (or replaced) the trigger for Golden Age: http://www.civ3.com/devupdate.cfm

Now you can trigger your Golden Age by building wonders according to your civ-abilities. I think that this trigger is so good that the specific unit-trigger isnt needed anymore. Agree or not?

I want to be able to fight with those specific units, without risking having a forced upon Golden Age, then Im perhaps not ready for it.

[Gramphos]

What happens if you can't get the wonders with your abilities or if someone sets all abilities?

I think you need a "backup".

[The diplomat]

I think we need BOTH triggers. There has to be a trigger for the warmonger who can't or doesn't want to build a certain wonder! Otherwise we are in a situation just like before where one player has to compromise their strategy to get a GA. Isn't that why we asked for a peaceful trigger in the first place?

However, I would suggest that the militaristic trigger be made more difficult since the peaceful trigger is pretty tough. I would suggest that you need to win say 4 battles with a UU to trigger a GA. Just like the peaceful player has to build 1 or 2 wonders to get a GA which isn't easy, now the warmonger would have to fight to get their GA! 1 win with a UU is way too easy!Furthermore, it would avoid unwanted GA's. The player who uses a UU to desperately defend a city won't get a GA when they did not want it.

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Gramphos
What happens if you can't get the wonders with your abilities or if someone sets all abilities?

You can always get wonders with your abilities, since also small wonders triggers Golden Age. And everybody can build small wonders, since they are non-exclusive.

If you want the unit-trigger; at least choose the third alternative. Why should one be forced to accept golden age, just because one single specific unit won a battle? It must be better and more challenging militaristic triggers. The present unit-trigger is to lame.

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Ralf
You can always get wonders with your abilities, since also small wonders triggers Golden Age. And everybody can build small wonders, since they are non-exclusive.

But if the wonder of one of the abilities is captured before you have built the other.

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Gramphos
But if the wonder of one of the abilities is captured before you have built the other.

Isnt that a little far-fetched? Anyway, why should Golden Age be a 100% guaranteed God-given right? The present military trigger is too easy and unchallenging, if not else.

[Gramphos]

Wait!
It is only the Great Wonders that can trigger Golden Age. I read the text again, slowly this time
[color={qcolor}]Great Wonders are also now associated with one or more of the Civilization strengths[/color]

[Andrew1999]

I vote for having it be selectable by the player as one of the game setup options--military only, peaceful only or both. That seems to be the way they're going with a lot of things (civ special powers, victory conditions) and it's an easy way to make everyone happy.

[RobC]

Originally posted by The diplomat
However, I would suggest that the militaristic trigger be made more difficult since the peaceful trigger is pretty tough. I would suggest that you need to win say 4 battles with a UU to trigger a GA. Just like the peaceful player has to build 1 or 2 wonders to get a GA which isn't easy, now the warmonger would have to fight to get their GA! 1 win with a UU is way too easy!Furthermore, it would avoid unwanted GA's. The player who uses a UU to desperately defend a city won't get a GA when they did not want it.

If you really want to make it challenging, you should make the trigger getting a UU to elite status! That would certainly take some doing (assuming the patrol cheat doesn't work the way it did in SMAC!!!)

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Gramphos
Wait!
It is only the Great Wonders that can trigger Golden Age. I read the text again, slowly this time
Great Wonders are also now associated with one or more of the Civilization strengths

So "Art of war" is a great wonder? I dont think so.

I vote for having it be selectable by the player as one of the game setup options--military only, peaceful only or both. That seems to be the way they're going with a lot of things (civ special powers, victory conditions) and it's an easy way to make everyone happy.

Well, why not? Or by fiddling the Rules.txt files. Just give me an option to bypass forced upon 1 successful battle Golden Ages. Its rather sad though that so many voters didnt (at least) choose the third alternative. Only Diplomat have openly agreed so far that the present specific unit-trigger needs an upgrade.

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Ralf
So "Art of war" is a great wonder? I dont think so.

Well, I don't think so. You mean that the thing about only great wonders have abilities is a typo on civ3.com?

[Bereta_Eder]

Having a UU triggered GA is way to easy compared to what you have to do to get a peaceful trigger.

ANd GA shouldn't be about war and warmongering.

So I say we don't need the UU trigger.

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Gramphos
Well, I don't think so. You mean that the thing about only great wonders have abilities is a typo on civ3.com?

Yes - It cant be Great wonders only, because there is only 12 of them in the game - and upto 8 players competing building them. How many of these great wonders are available for each civ-ability (there are 6 of those: militaristic, commercial, expansionist, scientific, religious and industrious)? And each of the 8 civs have two abilities each, remember. As you can see those great wonders would quickly be unavailable as Golden age-triggers. So small wonders is obviously also needed.

Originally posted by paiktis22
Having a UU triggered GA is way to easy compared to what you have to do to get a peaceful trigger.

Whats what I keep telling them. The present unit-trigger is infact so easy that you almost stumbles into Golden Age by accident. No effort is needed whatsoever - well, that 1 battle won by specific unit, but thats pathetic compared with the relatively hard wonder-trigger.

[Gramphos]

Not all wonders have just one ability.

Edited, due to thinking error in first time. Now it says What I meant from the beginning

[Skanky Burns]

We definately do need a military trigger to spark a GA!! Like Diplomat said before, the peaceful trigger was asked for so players didnt have to play in a style they weren't comfortable with... So why go too far and now force the warmonger to play a peaceful role?? I do like the idea of having to win 5 combat rounds with your UU to get the GA, as this would actually make you earn it more than just having the one win.

However, i dont support changing things just for the sake of it.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Ralf
Its rather sad though that so many voters didnt (at least) choose the third alternative.

Sorry if it makes you sad, but nobody forced you to start a poll about this topic.

How many of these great wonders are available for each civ-ability (there are 6 of those: militaristic, commercial, expansionist, scientific, religious and industrious)? And each of the 8 civs have two abilities, remember.

Yes, but at least some of the 12 Great Wonders satisfy two abilities.

[Rhysie]

According to the update wonders can have between 1 and all of the characteristics associated with them, though firaxis wouldn't be dumb enough to give any of them all the characteristics. But my point is, for all we know the average wonder might have three or more characteristics - It _might_ be very easy to get a golden age through wonders.

And even if it isn't easy to get a golden age through wonders, so what? You have the guarenteed chance, and the guarenteed golden age if you use your unique units well. If you aren't willing to fight a war, and you don't manage to build the right wonders, tough. No-one ever said every civ _had_ to get a golden age.

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Rhysie
According to the update wonders can have between 1 and all of the characteristics associated with them.

Even with great wonders associated with several abilities (I dont know where you get this info, with the exception of Great Wall - 2 abilities), you still have to build 1-2 great wonders (of perhaps only 5-6 available - lets face it: not ALL great wonders are multi-ability associated). Each unique Civ is supposed to have the ability to wonder-trigger golden ages - just do the math for crying out load. Mini-wonders can also work as triggers - just take "Art of war" for example? Is that a great wonder? Sounds more like a small wonder to me.

And even if it isn't easy to get a golden age through wonders, so what? You have the guarenteed chance, and the guarenteed golden age if you use your unique units well. If you aren't willing to fight a war, and you don't manage to build the right wonders, tough. No-one ever said every civ _had_ to get a golden age.

I think we are argumenting in circles here. My point is that the supposed great wonder only-trigger is extremely hard in comparison with the dead-easy specific unit-trigger. Now I have no problems with the wonder-trigger, since I believe small wonders also can act as triggers (hence; "Art of war"). But the "1 battle won" specific unit-trigger is way too easy.

They can keep Civ-specific unit-triggers, but they must enhance the trigger-mechanism. Maybe an army of tree units (at least one of them being elite civ-specific) must conquer a forreign city? Or something like that.
Just give us a militaristically triggered Golden ages where one have to prove onself before on triggers it. At least 4 civ-specific units achieving elite-status is another trigger-condition. Just one specific unit winning one lousy battle is not enough.

[Rhysie]

Originally posted by Ralf
Even with great wonders associated with several abilities (I dont know where you get this info, with the exception of Great Wall - 2 abilities),

It's in the latest developer update:

Great Wonders are also now associated with one or more of the Civilization strengths

Note the 'or more'... It doesn't say one or two, so it could be anything between one and all of them.

Also, despite your insistance, Art of War is a great wonder. I won't quote for that one, because I'd have to quote almost a third of the update to make it clear, but read the last paragraph of the latest developer update if you still don't believe me.

[Ralf]

I think I give up for now.
I have tried to turn the attention on the discrepancy between the supposed "great wonder only-trigger" and the "win one battle only-trigger", but to no avail. The hour is late, and I must get some sleep.

[Admiral PJ]

I think the millitary golden age needs to be abit more challenging, but not too much, ideally involving a succesful combat by your special unit and a special Millitary General Character which would let you trigger an age if you accepted it.

It shouldn't be too hard to get, as if a civ is getting kicked to pieces it would be good if a weak desperate civ could trigger its golden age quickly to give it a fighting chance. this would be GREAT to give small civs a better chance against big ones.

Maybe for any golden age you have to reach a new culture level too? (radius goes up)or have a certain culture level needed.

Americans golden age could start when it impeaches George W(dublyu) Bush

PJ Today i'm your Master Judo Game Coder

[TechWins]

If the peaceful trigger is harder than what some of think it is then the military trigger level of difficulty should be increased. Since Firaxis knows what they are doing I would imagine they are both balanced out. I actually I hope both of them are fairly difficult.

[Admiral PJ]

The real reason they've got the wonder trigger is to enable you to start a golden age any time during the game, as special units can be easily destroyed ( I wonder what the rules on bribing special units is too ) . Maybe other civs won't build your civs golden age wonder (golden wonder.. thats a crisp company brand isn't it? ) as they'll be too busy building there own - I don't know.

I'd like if some wonders could only be built if they were related to the builders distinctive civ abilities, so the Great wall(of china) could be only built by china and other scientific or millitary civs.

I hope the manuals good for this game, it sounds pretty complicated .

PJ damn i want to blast some chinese civ buggers in civ3 (or whoevers not on my side )

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Rhysie
Also, despite your insistance, Art of War is a great wonder. I won't quote for that one, because I'd have to quote almost a third of the update to make it clear, but read the last paragraph of the latest developer update if you still don't believe me.

Rhysie - I have now done what you suggested, and perhaps you are right after all. Maybe peaceful golden ages are triggered by Great Wonders only. Im not completely convinced yet, but when I read that update, it suddenly struck me:
What if you play americans and you want a late-game golden age? Well, if both big and small wonders can work as triggers, then it would be pretty hard to avoid early-/midgame golden ages. So it starting to look that you are right about those Great wonder-related triggers. I dont rule that out anymore.

Anyway, I still believe that the current unit-trigger is too weak. Especially compared with above Wonder-trigger. I dont want to "stumble into" golden age, just because one single successful specific unit battle.

Originally posted by TechWins
If the peaceful trigger is harder than what some of think it is then the military trigger level of difficulty should be increased. Since Firaxis knows what they are doing I would imagine they are both balanced out. I actually I hope both of them are fairly difficult.

I certainly agree to that.

[TechWins]

. I dont want to "stumble into" golden age, just because one single successful specific unit battle.

I hope you don't get a choice on whether or not you want to have your golden age. It should just happen and you should not have any complaints about it. If you want to make having your golden age a very complex strategy then plan your building of wonders and fighting with UU accordingly. Having a free choice of accepting your goldeng age will lead to most human civs receiving their golden age in modern times. Only humans will receive the golden age in modern times by non default because the AI will always choose yes. You should receive your golden age when you are supposed to receive your golden age.

[RobC]

Originally posted by Ralf
Just give us a militaristically triggered Golden ages where one have to prove onself before on triggers it. At least 4 civ-specific units achieving elite-status is another trigger-condition. Just one specific unit winning one lousy battle is not enough.

I think that's getting a bit too hard. My earlier suggestion that you can trigger a golden age when you get a single UU to elite level is fairly difficult, or at least it can take you some time to do it since you don't gain levels every time you win a battle, and you need to seek out tougher opponents (who are more likely to kill you) to have a better chance to gain levels. For example, if you are China and you start building your first Rider unit on the same turn as you start building the Great Wall (in a different city), do you think you will always be able to get one of your Rider units to elite status before the Great Wall is completed?