Come! Laugh at an SG!

[Xin Yu]

I replayed using the new plan (see my previous post). The first two huts gave the same outcome (a unit and an advanced tribe), but the third hut gave a barb horse, which was worse than last time.

4000B Carthage
3950 hut-chariot
3850 Utica
3750 Alphabet, hut-Malaca
3550 hut-barbarian horse, killed my chariot
3450 Code of Law
3050 Currency
2650 Caralis
2500 hut-100G
2450 Monarchy, change government the same turn
2350 Panormus
2150 Leptis Parva
2100 Trade, set science low (30%) and put workers on forest for caravans.
1950 Cartenna
1600 Marco Polo's Embassy (4 food caravans). I don't have 2.42 so the AI civs are nasty. Got to plan before talking to them. I'll definitely trade Map Making and Writing. Others I don't know. Vikings has Iro! Need to plan defense as well.

[DaveV]

620 Democracy discovered, Explosives next. Taxes 20/50/30. Hides Leptis Magna->Carthage, 31; Dye Leptis Parva->Carthage, 45. Rushbuy 5 shields in Utica, 2 in Saguntum, 5 in Panormus, 2 in Malaca, 1 in Girba, 8 in Capua.
640 Silk (D) Rusucurru->Carthage, 102; Wine Oea->Carthage, 35; Silver (D) Saguntum->Carthage, 115. Rushbuy 8 shields in Capua, 5 in Utica, 2 in Tingis, 5 in Panormus, 4 in Leptis Parva. Taxes 30/40/30.
660 Explosives discovered, Bridge Building next. Taxes 10/60/30. Dye Caralis->Carthage, 28; Dye Cunaxa->Carthage, 33; Gold Rusaddit->Carthage, 34. Rushbuy 8 shields in Capua.
680 Americans undertake Magellan's Expedition. Add 8 caravans to wonder construction in Carthage. Bribe Himera for 52 gold. Silk Issus->Carthage, 39; Food Malaca->Carthage; Silver (D) Naples->Carthage, 92; Dye Alalia->Carthage, 33. Rushbuy 2 shields in Caralis, 2 in Rusaddit, 21 in Cannae.
700 Carthage size 25, completes Isaac Newton's College. Bridge Building discovered, Economics next. Food Malaca->Carthage. Rushbuy 45 shields in Panormus, 48 in Capua.
720 Carthage size 26. Food Utica->Carthage; Beads Akragas->Carthage, 42; Silk (D) Capua->Carthage, 81. Taxes 20/50/30. Rushbuy 16 shields in Malaca, 3 in Cunaxa.
740 Economics discovered, Navigation next. Carthage size 27. Salt Cartenna->Carthage, 54; Silk (D) Cannae->Carthage, 99; Silver Cremona->Carthage, 34; Food Panormus->Carthage. Rushbuild Stock Exchange in Carthage.
760 Carthage builds stock exchange, switch to caravan. Wool Gades->Carthage, 30. Taxes 40/30/30. Rushbuy 21 shields in Turin, 2 in Naples.
780 Navigation discovered, Physics next. Gold Girba->Carthage, 32. Rushbuy 2 shields in Saguntum, 18 in Panormus. Taxes 10/60/40.

[DaveV]

800 Gems Saguntum->Carthage, 46; Salt Rusicade->Carthage, 45; Gold Leptis Parva->Carthage, 45. Rushbuy 4 shields in Carthage, 42 in Capua, 43 in Cannae, 3 in Alalia, 12 in Akragas, 1 in Theveste, 2 in Oea, 10 in Naples, 20 in Leptis Parva, 17 in Cremona, 2 in Carthago Nova. Crete established. My attack on Wood Lake fails .
820 Physics discovered, Steam Engine next. Dye Capua->Carthage, 30; Wool Caralis->Carthage, 29. Rushbuy 18 shields in Caralis, 16 in Alalia, 17 in Akragas, 2 in Rusucurru, 15 in Rusicade, 16 in Issus, 23 in Himera, 16 in Cremona.
840 Salt Rusucurru->Carthage, 37; Salt Rusaddit->Carthage, 54; Dye Cannae->Carthage, 34; Dye Leptis Magna->Carthage, 32. Taxes to 30/50/20 (I should have been running 20% luxuries since build stock exchange ). Rushbuy 48 shields in Capua, 49 in Cannae, 2 in Saguntum.
860 Civil disorder in Naples. Steam Engine discovered, Railroad next. Silver (D) Cunaxa->Carthage, 82; Coal (D) Cremona->Carthage, 85; Silk (D) Alalia->Carthage, 99; Copper Capua->Carthage, 30. Rushbuy 46 shields in Alalia, 2 in Malaca, 46 in Issus, 45 in Cunaxa, 46 in Cremona.
880 Sioux land a caravan near Carthage. Sorry, Sitting Bull, I won't share the wealth. Gems Akragas->Carthage, 40; Dye Naples->Carthage, 40; Dye Issus->Carthage, 39; Wool->Carthage, 34. Rushbuy 45 shields in Naples. Taxes 0/70/30. Verona established. 900 Railroad discovered, Industrialization next. Civil disorder in Himera. Dye Cremona->Carthage, 23; Wool Cunaxa->Carthage, 22; Wool Alalia->Carthage, 23; Wool Issus->Carthage, 28; Coal (D) Naples->Carthage, 87. Rushbuy 7 shields in Genoa, 42 in Carthage, 1 in Tingis, 5 in Leptis Parva. Hire Elvis to keep order in cities upset by the loss of HG.
920 Industrialization discovered, Magnetism next. Add 8 caravans to Statue of Liberty in Carthage. Revolt, taxes to 0/40/60. Macaulay reports happiness: Carthaginians 1st, Sioux 3rd, Vikings 4th, Aztecs 5th, Russians 7th.
940 Russians land, I give Navigation for peace. Americans have nearly completed Magellan's Expedition. Carthage builds Statue of Liberty. New government: Communism. Taxes to 0/60/40. Rushbuy 5 shields in Utica, 1 in Leptis Parva.
960 WLTCD in Carthage. I capture Wood Lake, take 26 gold and Warrior Code (Polytheism also available). Taxes 0/70/30. Rushbuy 1 shield in Cartenna, 3 in Cannae.
980 Sioux sign peace treaty, Aztecs steal Railroad. Magnetism discovered, The Corporation next. Taxes 0/70/30. Rushbuy 4 shields in Carthage, 4 in Rusucurru, 3 in Rusicade, 2 in Leptis Parva.

[Smash]

Man..I don't know how you can play that way .It works but..it looks like work also.

questions:
How much micromanaging do you do?Are you running thru each city every turn type thing?..this civ is fairly small right now(for ics standards)...would you normally be microing 100+ cities each turn?

You grow your cap or ssc with food caravans...How do you avoid a food route in the city?

Will you stay Commie from now on?Is this the usual plan?Is a representative government ever used?

[DaveV]

Originally posted by Smash
Man..I don't know how you can play that way .It works but..it looks like work also.

questions:
How much micromanaging do you do?Are you running thru each city every turn type thing?

Normally, I back way off on the micro once I grow beyond 10 or so cities. When I realized I had a very good game going here, I cranked the micro back up again. I am running through the cities every turn, not a hard habit after playing a little MP (even though I thought Ming was nuts when he first suggested it). I'm also micromanaging beakers somewhat to try to keep 2 techs/3 turns.

Originally posted by Smash
..this civ is fairly small right now(for ics standards)...would you normally be microing 100+ cities each turn?

In a conquest game, micro is unnecessary once I have built the key wonders; I just set up ship chains, build railroads, and take cities.

Originally posted by Smash
You grow your cap or ssc with food caravans...How do you avoid a food route in the city?

By setting up 3 normal routes first, I guess.

Originally posted by Smash
Will you stay Commie from now on?Is this the usual plan?Is a representative government ever used?

I love commie. Lots of shields, no corruption/waste/riot, very few happiness problems, no senate interference.

[La Fayette]

I played my game again from 1AD, with objective AC this time.
Launched 1804 a 21-5-5-1-1-1, ETA 1814.

Here is the tiny Hall of Fame for the time being:
AC (with caravan rehoming) : smash, landing 1543 (!!!)
AC (without rehoming): La Fayette, landing 1814
Conquest (without rehoming): La Fayette, 1758
I hurry up writing this because:

It is clear that Dave is now playing a game much better than mine (more than 10 turns ahead at 1000AD IMO). He might be able to land on AC close to 1750 without rehoming... and Xarathas, the Gits and Xin Yu have not yet published any result past 1AD, so I am fairly sure that my name won't stay written there more than a few days .

arii, makeo, geofelt, what are you doing now?
What I shall try is playing once more from 4000BC making use of 2.42 instead of MGE, and trying to apply the lessons learnt from all of you (just to check whether 2.42 is really more performing, and whether I am able to learn from the really strong players ).

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by DaveV

By setting up 3 normal routes first, I guess.

I love commie. Lots of shields, no corruption/waste/riot, very few happiness problems, no senate interference.

1) This didn't work well for me in this game. Some food routes disappeared (were replaced by new trade routes), some didn't.
I know Xin Yu has done a lot of research in that field, but I haven't understood yet exactly what his advice is.

2) So do I. I use it most of the times when playing conquest. Will enjoy having a look at your game, building a SS as a commie.

[Xin Yu]

A food trade route will diappear if a more valuable route can replace it. Before you establish a new trade route to your SSC, change all citizens in the source city of the food route to specialists. This will minimize the value of the food route (which equals to the value of any commodity route from that city to the SSC), thus the new trade route will replace the food route. After the change, put citizens back to work.

[La Fayette]

Very clear explanation.
Now I have understood.
And I shall try to use this wisely.

(La Fayette, happy to know how to get rid of those unwanted food routes)

[DaveV]

1000 Gems Rusaddit->Carthage, 48. Rushbuy 1 shield in Issus, 3 in Girba.
1020 The Corporation discovered, Metallurgy next. Silver Carthago Nova->Carthage, 29; Dye Cartenna->Carthage, 72; Wine Tingis->Carthage, 27; Gems Rusucurru->Carthage, 38; Wool Leptis Parva->Carthage, 62. Rushbuy 1 shield in Caralis, 24 in Capua, 6 in Theveste, 2 in Panormus, 2 in Leptis Magna, 28 in Cremona. Taxes 20/50/30.
1040 Metallurgy discovered, Refining next. Taxes 0/70/30. Dye Utica->Carthage, 44. Huts: 100 gold, 100 gold. Rushbuy 3 shields in Oea, 5 in Leptis Magna, 24 in Gades, 40 in Wood Lake.
1060 Silk (D) Gades->Carthage, 84; Oil Malaca->Carthage, 42; Wine Rusicade->Carthage, 58. Rushbuy 1 shield in Caralis, 15 in Rusaddit.
1080 Aztecs demonstrate Monotheism, undertake Darwin's Voyage. Refining discovered, Combustion next. Coal (D) Leptis Magna->Carthage, 80; Hides Rusucurru->Carthage, 38; Hides Saguntum->Carthage, 64; Silver Theveste->Carthage, 64. Rushbuy 8 shields in Utica, 14 in Tingis, 2 in Leptis Parva, 30 in Girba, 6 in Carthago Nova. Wounded Knee completes Magellan's Expedition, Americans change to Darwin's Voyage, Russians abandon project. Washington completes Darwin's Voyage, Aztecs abandon project.
1100 Combustion discovered, Electricity next. Gems Caralis->Carthage, 29; Silk (D) Rusaddit->Carthage, 228. Rushbuy 4 shields in Carthage, 9 in Cartenna, 6 in Tingis, 30 in Theveste, 18 in Issus.
1120 Electricity discovered, Steel next. Spice Panormus->Carthage, 46; Oil Girba->Carthage, 48. Rushbuy 27 shields in Cannae, 4 in Saguntum, 8 in Rusucurru, 30 in Leptis Magna, 18 in Gades. Aztecs gift 100 gold. Sell Colosseum in Carthage.
1140 Americans undertake Women's Suffrage. Salamis established. Hides Tingis->Carthage, 54. Rushbuy 8 shields in Caralis, 18 in Alalia, 14 in Rusicade, 30 in Rusaddit.
1160 Babylonians undertake Women's Suffrage. Steel discovered, Automobile next. Silk (D) Theveste->Carthage, 192; Hides Leptis Magna->Carthage, 48; Hides Carthago Nova->Carthage, 58; Oil Cannae->Carthage, 48. Rushbuy 4 shields in Girba, 30 in Carthago Nova.

[Carolus Rex]

Hm, looks like it's going to be a close call between DaveV and Smash...

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

I'll give it a try too.

How do you upload the saves, do you need a web page?

Carolus

[Smash]

right above the submit button is a small "ATTACH FILE" with a "browse" thingy.Click that and you upload from your computer to...here...somewhere..Apolyton server I guess.

[La Fayette]

Sure Dave's game is great. He has built a very powerful civ and seems to be travelling quickly towards AC.
IMHO it would be unfair to compare with smash's game, because of caravan rehoming. smash used it and, believe me, it is a VERY powerful weapon.

Dave,
looking at your savegames, I have a feeling that you are NOT rehoming any caravan. Is this true?

I have started my second game, using 2.42 instead of MGE, and it seems to be running quite smoothly (far from being so powerful as dave's civ, but much more 'foreign minded',... wait and see ).

Here is the log until 20 AD (I forgot to save at 1AD):

3850 Carthago
3600 Utica
3000 barb attack
2250 Monarchy
2000 Trade
1400 Pottery
800 Colossus
650 Hanging Gardens
625 Philo + Polytheism
475 Monotheism
375 Mike
225 Switch to Republic

[Xarathas]

one thing about MGE.. has anyone had much success in getting money from your allies (of course, gifting them with techs in return)??

[arii]

Tryed again with a different strategy. I choose to develop only 3 cities on top of my SSC, dedicating the rest of my civ production to foreign trade as soon as I discovered trade and map making.
I launched in 1590AD with ETA 1611 (15-3-3-1-1-1 without fusion = 21 years). Smash is still the best!
I did not rehomed caravans in this game and played without using the knowledge of the map that I had from the previous attempt (played as if the map was new).

[DaveV]

Originally posted by Carolus Rex
How do you upload the saves, do you need a web page?

No, you don't - that's the beauty of it. Go to the "browse" selection button under the message text box, select the appropriate file from your hard drive, and that's it. The file ends up on Apolyton's server, so you don't need any personal web space.

Originally posted by La Fayette
Dave,
looking at your savegames, I have a feeling that you are NOT rehoming any caravan. Is this true?

True. No caravan rehoming. I've made lots of mistakes in this game, the latest being missing out on Darwin's . So there's lots of room for improvement (go, Carolus!).

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by arii
I launched in 1590AD with ETA 1611 (15-3-3-1-1-1 without fusion = 21 years). Smash is still the best!
I did not rehomed caravans in this game and played without using the knowledge of the map that I had from the previous attempt (played as if the map was new).

We all agree that smash played a fantastic game, but caravan rehoming is such a fantastic tool that it would be unfair to compare his and your result without mentioning that.
IMO your second game is now THE earliest landing without rehoming.

ETA 1611 to beat!
(and ETA 1543 if you choose to rehome caravans)

...og Carolus er hjertelig velkommen.

[Smash]

assumes altar of shame

I think my game was not so good considering each camel/truck was worth at least 3 non rehomed.I was a little indecisive around 1ad>500ad.I think at pre 1300s is quite doable with rehoming on this map.No rehoming then pre 1500s,certainly.My tech path was not "perfect" either and a little jumbled as far as strategy wa concerned.Maybe I should try again....

[Carolus Rex]

I'm trying conquest to get a different game to look at.

How do I create zipped files? So far I've saved every turn (except one, when I forgot to) and I tried to zip them. When I used winzip, the program asked me to give a name for my zip-file, which I did (Apolyton). Then I chose my saves to zip, and they were stored in that folder (?). So the zip-file I named Apolyton turned out to be a folder containing all the saves in original size.

Until I get help on that one:

Gentlemen, my log!

Version: MGE
Notation (I may add more here as they happen): B = bribed, C = conquered (not much of that yet ), D = discovered, E = exchanged, F = founded, H = hut

4000-3000 BC

3950 50 gold (H)
3850 25 gold (H)
3800 Carthage (F)
3650 Utica (F)
3550 Alphabet (D)
3450 Barbarian horse (H), killed it
3150 Code of laws (D)

3000-2000 BC

2950 Malaca (F)
2800 Caralis (F)
2700 Currency (D)
2550 Barbarian horse (H), killed it
2300 Monarchy (D)
2250 Proclaimed King
2200 Panormus (F)

2000-1000 BC

1900 Trade (D). Here I had a choice between Pottery and Map Making, chose Pottery despite that I now knew I was on an island
1800 Leptis Parva (F)
1650 Aztecs have undertaken HG (I made the right choice, apparently )
1500 Cartenna (F), Rusicade (F)
1450 Pottery (D)
1300 HG completed in Carthage (Aztecs switch to Colossus and not LH, phew! )
1150 Vikings undertake Pyramids (Hah, fools! )
1100 Map making (D), Gades (F)

1000-425 (?) BC

975 Rusucurru (F)
875 Leptis Parva builds LH, Writing (D)
750 Girba (F)
725 Leptis Magna (F), Carthago Nova (F)
700 Warrior Code (D), yep you read it right!
675 Aztecs build Colossus, Oea (F) and Tingis (F)
550 Feudalism (D)
525 Russians land near Girba , which is undefended, and walk right in . Diplo moved to Panormus to buy city back. Taxes to max for one turn. Russadit (F). Russians demand Feudalism (Fools! Why didn't they take it (instead of Mysticism?) when they conquered Girba? ), I decline, “prepare for war”, yes sir!
500 Girba (B). I get a horse, a chariot and the Wheel for 34 bucks. Wham, bam, thank you ma'm!
475 STWA built in Carthage

I think I played two more turns before crashing into bed, but apparently nothing worth logging happened.

Status: 16 cities, 3 wonders (HG, LH and STWA), 57 gold, 15 techs ( heading for Invention/Democracy/Navigation)

No barb kings, no tribute, almost no interaction with the AI.

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Hm, looking back four huts gave me 75 gold and two barb horses.

Still, being on an small island what good would a hut born exploring unit do? True, disbanding it to speed up a settler would have been possible, or keeping it around to strike against barbs. But there have been none (except from the huts).

The hut outcome could have been worse (like two none monarchy techs)...

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Originally posted by La Fayette
...og Carolus er hjertelig velkommen.

Mange takk!

Carolus

[La Fayette]

carolus
My first zip file is about one month old, so I'm no specialist at all.
Here is what one of 'those who know how' told me:
'click on the file containing your savegame with the RIGHT button of your mouse; you get a pop up menu that allows you to zip the file and put it where you wish to'.
It works for me, so it might work for you.


(La Fayette, now able to zip a file)

[Carolus Rex]

That easy, eh? I'll try.

Still, would be nice to know how to do it the "right" way using winzip directly.

Carolus

[La Fayette]

arii
Rereading this thread, I notice that you launched your SS exactly 6 turns later than smash (1590 against 1530).
IMO 6 turns difference between rehoming and not rehoming caravans is a very low price.
smash's game was great. Your second game is perhaps even greater.

(La Fayette, wondering whether his own game #2 will be as great as yours)

[La Fayette]

I have now played until 980AD (same year as the last savegame published by dave)
Dave's civ is huge, so we can name it Goliath.
My civ is small, so we can name it David .
Still my civ is 1 tech ahead.
Do you think David might win against Goliath?
Do you think any of us might win against arii?

That is the fun of it. Thank you once more SGs!
I think your idea was brilliant and is giving us a very nice opportunity to improve our gameplay, while looking at what the others do.

Here is my short log from 1AD:
220 Cope
400 Shake + Invention
800 Leo
940 switch to Democracy

[La Fayette]

Sorry I don't know how to attach several savegames together.
Here's one more:

[La Fayette]

... and the one in the middle

[Scouse Gits]

0200 local time and , I guess, we have to post our results so far...

Red wine 4 - Civ 3 - shucks

1AD - Demand tribute from Sioux - predictably they foolishly declare war
40AD - swapped for The Republic & Literacy with Aztecs
80AD - hut- Engineering!! SG2 doesn't believe his Eyes
100-180AD - vet Caravel with diplomatic status is 'researching' Russia seeking Barbarian Kiev
200AD Invention - Philo (Demo) next; Oea founded; Kiev found, bought for 52g including a vet Legion & a new Diplo
280AD - Tingis, Rusaddit
320AD - Philo (Demo) as advertised
340AD - SoL !!!!
360AD - Revolution
380AD - SG2 wins the 'debate' (he hit me over the head until I gave in) and we went Commie (sob); Alalia founded
400BC - run out of time - SG1 has a home to go to!
____________________________
The SGs in tandem - very red

so we are here - wherever that may be?

[Scouse Gits]

&
________________
Pissed as farts