What would you name the Chinese UU then?

[DonJoel]

Goddamit i love CHINA!
Does that count as a "beef up your level" post?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
In pinyin it's sheng-quan, not sheng-suan.
According to my dictionary:
Quan. (falling tone) deed, ticket, guarantee

Hm, not sure which character to which you referred. By context it should be the one that means "calculation." My dictionary has the pinyin as suan.

Originally posted by ranskaldan
Your suggestion of Polu would sound better with a -jun. Polu means the action of defeating the barbarians. Polu-jun means the people who defeat the barbarians.

That doesn't sound good. If I were emperor I would add the jun to the end.

Originally posted by ranskaldan
To be truthful, i've never heard the names 'hurang' or 'hubai' in my life. And 'bai' means breaking by hand, but not in the sense of defeating someone. It means breaking open, say, corn, or something. 'hubai' sounds a bit off.

That's by extension.

Originally posted by ranskaldan
And as for Shen-Gei, well, i've never heard that one either. 'Gei' in the sense of 'to give' is pretty colloquial and wasn't really used to name imperial armies and the like.

*sigh*

No, it's the character that stands for "opportunity" or "machine." There are many words to one sound, you know.

[Dimorier Maximus]

Is there any Chinese speaker here that can translate the words "Horse Rider" to their native Chinese tongue as variable X. Then translate X back to English, phonetically?

That would be a cool name for the unit. It would sound foreign, yet it would still be Horse Rider.

[ranskaldan]

Urban Ranger:

Hm, not sure which character to which you referred. By context it should be the one that means "calculation." My dictionary has the pinyin as suan.

I am refering to a character read as 'quan', falling tone, meaning guarantee, or ticket, or deed. Sheng-quan is an expression meaning the Guarantee of Victory. What you referred to was 'shen-suan', meaning God's Calculations.

I believe that 'Sheng-ch'uan' is actually sheng-quan, because sheng-ch'uan is the Wade-Giles version of pinyin sheng-quan. (Wade Giles, btw, is an alternative way to write Chinese words in the Roman alphabet, other than pinyin.)

That's by extension.

Yes, but i'd prefer a name i've heard before. The Chinese UU is supposed to reflect history after all. And hubai really sounds too weird to be the Chinese UU.

No, it's the character that stands for "opportunity" or "machine." There are many words to one sound, you know.

The character for opportunity is ji, not gei. The ONLY word that's read as Gei in Chinese is the word for 'give'. I know that there're are many words to one sound, but for the sound 'gei' there's only one word in the whole language.

Rakki:

Iron Cavalry or Iron Knights would be perfect.

Dimorier Maximus:

I'm sorry, but I must object... i know that translating Horse Rider into hao-si-lai-de or hau-sih-lai-to will sound pretty foreign, but to a Chinese like me, it sounds really very very weird.

EDIT: apparently I misunderstood Dimorier, so ignore this part.

[Dimorier Maximus]

Then translate "Iron Knight" into your native tongue. Then translate it back to English, phonetically. Or has someone already done that? If so, what did they come up with? Do you come up with something different?

Please then translate it further, for example

hau-sih-lai-to = Howsilito or something like that.

This way Firaxis won't have to translate your phonics for you. It will be less confusing. Because as you can probably see, I butchered your "hau-sih-lai-to" when I tried to translate it further.

[ranskaldan]

Hao-sih-lai-to is my closest rendering of 'horse rider' into the Chinese phonetic structure. It doesn't mean anything in Chinese. I thought that's what you meant... but apparently i misunderstood

If you want to translate 'horse rider' into Chinese words, then it will be Ch'ih-ping, which, unfortunately, means cavalry, so it doesn't sound so special (to a Chinese).

I prefer T'ieh-Ch'ih, which means Iron Cavalry or Iron Knights. Thus, whether you use the Chinese or the English version, it sounds fine. Rakki suggested that we use the English version so that people can understand... but you are saying the Chinese version sounds more authentic... i don't know, maybe we can have a poll or something?

[Dimorier Maximus]

A poll is an excellent idea. It should let you pick from:

Iron Knight
Iron Cavalry
Rider (come on, this is so unimaginative)
T'ieh-Ch'ih (which means Iron Knight or Iron Cavalry in Chinese)

I'll let you make it since it was your idea, or I'll make it if you want me to.

You might want to include more or less options at your own discretion. Just make sure T'ieh-Ch'ih is there, because that's the one I would like to vote for.

[Dimorier Maximus]

One more thing, is it possible that you can translate it so that it doesn't have the "contractions" (examples: I've, I'm, can't, T'ieh, Ch'ih) and take out the "hyphen" (examples: dog-house, big-cat, T'ieh-Ch'ih). Those are not very common in describing Iron Knights.

Ir'n-'nites

[ranskaldan]

I'll take out the hyphens. The apostrophes " ' " are there, however, because they're pronounced. ti is pronounced differently from t'i. It doesn't mean a contraction.

There are actually two ways to write Chinese words in the Roman Alphabet, called the Wade-Giles and pinyin. Wade-Giles is guilty of all the apostrophes, but it promotes a more accurate pronunciation by non-Chinese. Pinyin looks 'cleaner' and it's used by most people nowadays, but the selection of letters it uses is weird.
Which one would you prefer in the poll?
For example:

Wade Giles : T'ieh-Ch'ih
Pinyin : Tieqi
Actual Pronunciation: like Wade Giles

Wade Giles : P'olu-Ch'un
Pinyin : Polujun
Acutal Pronunciation: like Wade Giles

Wade Giles : Chu-Ko-Nu
Pinyin : Zhuge Nu
Actual Pronunciation: like Wade Giles

well you get the idea... which one do you prefer?

[Dimorier Maximus]

Pinyin, 100%

I just don't like the way the other one looks. To chop-ee.

[Rakki]

the Civ convention has always been to name it in plain English. (or "common" plain english anyway). So I think Tieqi and it's myriad phonetic adaptations can be safely ruled out

I mean, what's Jaguar Warrior in Aztec and the Immortals in Persian anyway ?

[lihb]

i agree that the units should be named in plain english. but "chinese rider"....
i mean why don't firaxis named special unit of aztec as aztec warrior, zulu as zulu warrior, american as american fighter.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
well you get the idea... which one do you prefer?

Pinyin uses Latin alphabet, but the pronounciation is different. Wade Gides just doesn't cut it because some sounds can't be generated by using the English pronounciations of the alphabet.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
Urban Ranger:
I am refering to a character read as 'quan', falling tone, meaning guarantee, or ticket, or deed. Sheng-quan is an expression meaning the Guarantee of Victory. What you referred to was 'shen-suan', meaning God's Calculations.

Hm. quan (short tone) is a "ticket." suan is "calculations." sheng suan is "victory through careful calculations," or "an assured victory." It doesn't mean "god's calculations."

Customarily shen suan is used, not shen quan. The latter is only used in the 4-letter proverb.

[ranskaldan]

Urban Ranger:

Okay I get your point... i thought that you were referring to shen-suan as in god's calculations because you spelt it shen, which means god, instead of sheng which means victory. However, the 'sheng-ch'uan' is almost certainly sheng-quan because the Wade Giles system writes quan as ch'uan. As for the 4-syllable idiom, thats wen-cao-sheng-quan... oh well, that is the only use for sheng-quan i can think of.

Pinyin and Wade Giles are just two ways of spelling the same things. Wade Giles attempts to spell words according to English spelling rules, which doesn't come out so well. Pinyin tries to utilise every letter of the Roman alphabet, so some letters are assigned weirdly. like 'Q' is pronounced 'ch' and 'X' is pronounced 'sh'.

[J10]

As a Chinese, I've enjoyed reading this rather amusing thread. Honestly 90% of the time I have had no idea what you guys were referring to, but that's what amused me

We were never too good at fighting on horses, the nomad tribes from the North (including the Mongols, of cuz) were, and that's why we have the Great War to isolate us from them, because they kept raiding on small villages.

Actually quite a few interesting and unique units were invented back in the ancient time, but we'd like to focus on war strategies, battle tactics and formation more than unique units. (ex. Predict how strong and in what direction the wind will blow, then set fire at that direction; Predict where they will run and put our heavily armored vehicles and soldiers there to wait for them to run to us, then have two groups of light calvaries waiting on either side to chase and kill those who escaped).

But let's stay on topic: Since we were never too good at fighting on horses, I don't think we have a specific name for our elite calvary. Riders were simply called "Riders", and I don't think "Raiders" is very appropriate because we never raid, we always settle. A fast and heavily armored rider (+1 d m comparing to knight right?) is impossible
let's just name it the Ti'Che, which stands for the "Iron Rider". I know some Generals in ancient China like to train elite riders, equip them with the best horses and use them (Ti'Che) to cut the enemy formation in half. That's all I could suggest, sorry bout the long post

[ranskaldan]

I'd have preferred the Chu Ko Nu from Age of Kings myself, since it was actually a distinct Chinese invention... but since there's no time to change the cavalry graphics, we have to make do with Tieqi. Or maybe Qingqi, which means Light Cavalry.

What a dilemma! How can a unit have +1d +1m?

+1d would be best named Tieqi (Iron Cavalry)
+1m would be best named Qingqi (Light Cavalry)
but +1d and +1m? what a weird combo.

And there's no sign Firaxis is changing this name yet...

[Harlan]

There has been much debate about the phrase Sheng-ch'uan. I'm no Chinese speaker. However, I have access to the book Imperial Chinese Armies: 590 - 1260 AD. I saw it today, and this book mentions that phrase.

The mention is when talking about the Sung army. Here is the reference:

"Training and drill were studied scientifically, and in the best units, men were allocated to different duties on the basis of examinations in shooting and various athletic pursuits. Units of sheng-ch'uan, or picked men, were selected for special tasks such as night assaults."

So there you have it - it is real Chinese, and actually means something (presumably, "picked men"). If real Chinese speakers don't understand it, could it be because the language has changed in the 1000 years since the Sung? If the language hasn't changed significantly since that time, then it would be just about the only one on the planet not to evolve. Certainly don't doubt the source - the book is one of the best books on the Chinese army in existence and draws most of its material from the Cambridge History of China series, which is second to none.

Given all that, it doesn't seem to refer to any kind of cavalry specifically, just elite soldiers generally. So probably not the best name replacement for Rider.

[J10]

Originally posted by Harlan
"Training and drill were studied scientifically, and in the best units, men were allocated to different duties on the basis of examinations in shooting and various athletic pursuits. Units of sheng-ch'uan, or picked men, were selected for special tasks such as night assaults."

I believe Sheng-Ch'uan is (�ã‘I) "up" "choice", means elite, or best of the pick.

[ranskaldan]

Harlan, your excellent historical resources are great, it seems that there was such a unit after all...

As for the Chinese language changing... well, of course, all languages change. However, the weirdness of the Chinese language is that its writing doesn't change as much as the pronunciation does. Its pronunciation changes at the pace of normal languages, but its writing is 'fossilized'.

It's as if we still write in a modified version of Old English, or Proto-Germanic, even though we speak Modern English. Thus, the 'sheng-ch'uan' would be the Modern pronunciation of a term that would have been pronounced differently in the Sung dynasty, but would have been written in the same way (well, maybe with a different font, but it's the same characters.)

For the same reason, we Chinese can still read Confucius, 3000 years ago, with the same difficulty as say, Chaucer in English, because Chinese writing is artificially preserved. But if we heard Confucius, we would not understand a single word, because the pronunciation of the words have changed much, much more, at the 'normal' pace of all human languages.