Apolyton's "Great Library"

[SlowThinker]

Post 1 of
"The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread contains a detailed explanation of keywords now.

SGs, we could reconstruct Post 1 of Apolyton's Great Library" into a starting page with links etc. now

Sirotnikov,
See my post here (posted March 23, 2001 22:08; "In fact, it is not very important...")
My idea is that a .hlp file will keep something similar to a table of "The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread

I think that threads will always need corrections.
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited April 15, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

How to build a condensed thread (Info:...)

The prototype thread is "Info: diplomats and spies" thread

I will try to summarize hints how to do it. Regard them as suggestions only, the final look depends on your decision. But the existence of a standard look has some advantages: It would be more comfortable for readers and a prospective moving of paragraphs between threads would be easier.

The main post (Post 1 in the "Info: diplomats and spies" thread) needn't be held on the same place as the debate (if you want to keep it on your own web pages for example). But I suggest it: It is simpler to load everything in all and any reader can see the newest knowledge or theories (not included into Post1 yet) easily.

Name the thread Info: topic,
where topic is taken from a table in "The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread.

When I made "Info: diplomats and spies" thread, I went to SEARCH button and I searched for words spy, spies, diplomat, brib, sabotag etc. But you may search also for "keywords" (see "The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread).
You can put new keywords if there are no ones or missing ones in threads you work with.

Use posts for additional informations and reserve one or two posts for a future use (posts 2-5 of "Info: diplomats and spies" thread).

Don't be afraid of the html code if you don't know it:
Use the Post 1 of "Info: diplomats and spies" thread:
Load "Info: diplomats and spies" thread, go to edit button and copy the content to a Windows clipboard. Then make a new file through Notepad (or any text editor), paste the content of the clipboard in, and save the file with a .htm extension. Exit the text editor. Open your something.htm file using a html editor (you have to use (at least for the first time) a WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) editor: for example a built-in editor in IE (Front Page Express) or Netscape (Netscape Composer)), edit it and save it.
Unfortunately, you cannot send the result to Apolyton immediately: a standard html ignores EOLs (end-of-line-markers), but Apolyton mixes html and EOLs. You have to replace all EOLs by spaces:
I use MSWord for that purpose: I copy my something.htm into something.txt file and I open it in Word. I use the replace function (Ctrl-H) and I replace all ^p by ^s (I have made a simple macro for that procedure).
The text is ready now: you have just bring it (through a clipboard) to an Apolyton input field.

It is useful to keep links to threads that were not abandoned, i. e. to threads that contain a semifinished problem. (See yellow parts of Post 1 of "Info: diplomats and spies" thread: 3.9 (emerging partisans) and 12.1 (industrial sabotage)).

Help others to maintain build and their condensed threads. Or create a pair or a group that will build one thread. The cooperation improves the morale.

Any suggestions to improvement of this article are welcomed!
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited April 16, 2001).]

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Sorry, ST, I followed your instructions to the letter, and it does not work on my pc. When I save your spy thread and load it into ANY text editor, there is either no html code at all, or the file is so full of it that it is a sea of incomprehensible jibberish. Perhaps you could post how to do the absolute basics:

1. make a link to other text within the same post
2. make tables (and fill them, if that's not intuitive)

Also, I saw your note that the search engine does not work on edited posts AFTER I had already edited by keyword post. Any ideas on how to work around this? I'll keep it as is until our keyword discussion is resolved...

[Marquis de Sodaq]

duplicate
[This message has been edited by Marquis de Sodaq (edited April 15, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Marquis de Sodaq (edited April 15, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

I have edited the post "How to build a condensed thread " a little.

Marquis de Sodaq,
It must work. I hope you didn't save all the thread, only content of first post. Didn't you miss
and save the file with a .htm extension. Open your something.htm file using any html editor ?

[Roman]

This thread is getting rather long. Wouldn't it be wise to start a new one on this topic?

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Thanks, ST, I'll try my html luck again in the next day or two.

Re: improvements and wonders

It has become clear that GL threads on various topics will refer to various improvements and wonders. Do we want to create a static thread for these? Basically, one that lists all we know about them that can be linked in references from other GL threads? Or do we keep them disparate?

The appeal of keeping city improvements and wonders in a separate thread is organization - they are all the same type of game element.

Sorting them by type - putting economic improvements into one thread, defensive into another, science into a third, is useful because it eliminates the need for any link.

It comes down to how we choose to group things. There are 2 options:

• all GL info threads link to the improvement/wonder thread as appropriate
• improvements/wonders are not summarized in one thread, but only when relevant to another topic

What do the other librarians think?

[Marquis de Sodaq]

damn, another duplicate post...
[This message has been edited by Marquis de Sodaq (edited April 16, 2001).]

[Scouse Gits]

Keep things simple and use an alphabetical index!
------------
SG(2)

[SlowThinker]

double post
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited April 16, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

I have edited the post "How to build a condensed thread" again.

---

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq Also, I saw your note that the search engine does not work on edited posts AFTER I had already edited by keyword post. Any ideas on how to work around this? I'll keep it as is until our keyword discussion is resolved...

I have brought the problem to the Apolyton/Community forum...See http://www.apolyton.net/forums/Forum20/HTML/001480.html , posted April 16, 2001 12:47, it is comical.

---

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq Re: improvements and wonders

I vote for improvements/wonders are not summarized in one thread, but only when relevant to another topic.
There is an idea of one large hyperlink structure for advances, WoWs and improvements (a kind of the tech tree) in the table at "The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread, row 5 (lists). But I suppose there would be just basic informations (shield cost, prerequisites...)

---

quote: Originally posted by Roman This thread is getting rather long. Wouldn't it be wise to start a new one on this topic?

Yes, this thread served for two purposes from the beginning:
as the place where to store useful information and
as the place where to debate about it.

I agree we bring some portion of a mess, but it shouldn't harm: IMHO all useful information should be stored in the first post at final stage (or the first page).

[SlowThinker]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 04-16-2001 02:08 PM Keep things simple and use an alphabetical index! ------------ SG(2)

Be more specific.
My idea is that an alphabetical index may be built when condensed threads will be finished.

[Ming]

As has been pm'd to me... this thread is over the traditional limit.
I will leave it open so you can prepare for the next thread. What I would like to do is set up a Locked index thread for you to use. It will also be a sticky thread. When modifications need to made, I can be contacted to un lock it so somebody can make updates. It can then be locked again.

A second thread will also available right below it so discussion can continue.

What do you think???? Will that work?????

Discuss it some, and let me know. I will have to close this thread soon... And thanks for all your hard work. This thread is just another reason why people come to Apolyton.

------------------
Ming
ACS Civ II & OT Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

[Scouse Gits]

I think we should adopt Ming's idea. It will be simple and easy to use. The first locked thread will contain all the information about the game's functions and playing strategies, whilst the second one will allow for discussions about the Great Library to continue.

An index in alphabetical form is the universal approach to finding most required knowledge. The more elaborate approaches like the "Hierarchical Structure" may be a project for the future. I have to admit that I have reservations about this format. Firstly, it would take a lot of time to set up the structure and keep it up to date. Secondly, I see a real danger in the concept being easily misunderstood. There is currently a thread in the General Section about having a hard time liking Civ2. I would hate to see a new poster seeking information in the Great Library, and then thinking, "This is more complicated than the game itself!". In short, I don't see any reason to reinvent the wheel. To impart knowledge we must communicate in simple formats - and that is an index.

------------

SG(2)



[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited April 17, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

alphabetical index vs. hierarch. structure

SG, I can't imagine your idea of the index probably. What text do you want to index? And how do you want to do it?

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits I see a real danger in the concept being easily understood.

The basis of the concept is the structure of "Info: diplomats and spies" thread. Do you think that it is too complicated? Or do you mean the system of "keywords"?

I have noticed one or two weeks ago that you prefer an alphabetical index, but you didn't answer my response . We should debate it immediately.

---

Closing this thread

There are three things included in this thread:
A. links to interesting threads and web pages
B. concrete information about the game's functions and playing strategies
C. debate about the look of the GL

A.: Some volunteer could move them into one post of "Locked index thread".
B.: Can be conserved in this thread.
C.: We can start a new thread, say in the first post that the debate started here and add the link towards this thread. The new thread needn't be kept on the top.

quote: Originally posted by Ming What I would like to do is set up a Locked index thread for you to use.

Ming, do you mean something like "Apolyton Birthday Calendar" with a fixed number of posts? I welcome this idea. Maybe the unlock-lock procedure isn't needed: won't be simpler if we will just send you an edited text of a post if needed?

I think the "Locked index thread" may be the only thread on the top of the forum: any important thread may be referred from there:
-this thread
-a new thread that will cover C.
-pivotal threads of any form of the GL (I mean the concept of condensed threads, the "keyword" concept, the SG(2)'s concept of alphabetical index...)

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits The first locked thread will contain all the information about the game's functions and playing strategies

IMHO the first locked thread should contain commented links only.
all the information about the game's functions and playing strategies
is spread over all the Apolyton, how do you want to get it into one thread?

[Marquis de Sodaq]

I like Ming's idea of one locked thread, which would be the Great Library itself, or rather, it's card catalog. SG2, is your idea that this locked thread would be the index with links to all the relevant info threads? Essentially an index like in the back of a book, with under S the word spy that is a link to ST's diplo/spy thread?

A second thread for discussion would crop up anyway, so we may as well have a designated one at the top of the forum. This could be where people can announce their plan to make a complete info thread, and on what topic. Or call for a topic to be compiled.

I think the actual compiled knowledge should remain as is (e.g. the diplo/spy thread), in a thread with one summary post and discussion following. Players always discover something new, requiring edits/additions to the main post.

Looking back thru this thread, it appears that the SGs, SlowThinker, and I are the main "librarians," with help from La Fayette and Edward. Who else is contributing significantly at this point?

------------------
"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

[airdrik]

On your links, you should use the name of the thread as the link so that people looking at it can see a little more about what the thread is about ie. [ url... ] A thread about stuff [ /url ]

[Marquis de Sodaq]

SG2, the only problems I see are:

1) The index should alphabetize on the primary noun, e.g. the obvious place to look for technology threads, T, has only trade. I suggest using subgroups under the keywords:

O
OCC (One City Challenge)
...OCC "Paulicy" (link)
...with size 4 city (link)
...etc

T
technology
...first 20 techs - discussion (link)
...etc
trade
...maximizing (link)
...etc

The subgroups allow multiple topics under one keyword, instead of under several letters. While you don't like ST's hierarchy, the keywords are indispensable, IMHO.

2) Make the url the thread title where possible. It gives a better sense of the topic than the cryptic address.

3) Use proper spelling. It looks like you used "Capital" as it appears in the linked thread. But they were discussing the Capitol. Common mistake, but one worth correcting.

It would be easy to come up with terms to identify different types of links, such as your "- discussion", above. The diplo/spy and combat summary threads could have something like "- info" or "- summary" to separate them. Great start to getting this library in a usable form!
[This message has been edited by Marquis de Sodaq (edited April 17, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

Perfect work, SG(2).
Are links that are spread through this thread included?
I agree with aidrik very strongly.
Don't you want to make a simple html table? If yes then see How to build a condensed thread on page 4.

I see you stopped our discussion about advantages and disadvantages of our concepts again
But I will continue:
Tell me if you hate my impolite way of a communication. I will stop.

1.
Do you want to collect any thread that contains some useful information or best threads only? If you want to collect any thread, then the alphabetical index and the system of keywords do the same work:
When I got the idea of keywords, I compared both ways. IMHO the index is more laborious. You will need a separate thread where we will send new links(Or do you want to do it yourself?):
keywords system: people add 5 keywords for example
index: people will send you 5 suggestions, you will check them and file them into 5 separate places.
summary: keywords and index may cooperate IMHO, but it would be less laborious to build the index later when there will be many threads with keywords included.

2.
I would vote for a hierarchical structure of the index.
If I am looking for any information about advances: how will I know that I have to look under "Starting Techs"? (IMO the index will be very large).
An alphabetical index is better if the topic has no structure. But Civ2 is well structured.

[SlowThinker]

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq Looking back thru this thread, it appears that the SGs, SlowThinker, and I are the main "librarians," with help from La Fayette and Edward. Who else is contributing significantly at this point?

Add people from GL: Who will participate, maybe Roman

But I think we need more active people to build the Great Library. What about to join forces of Apolyton and CivFanatics? I noticed there is a good traffic now. Do you think that people would agree to be registered on both servers?

[Scouse Gits]

Thank you for the interest and suggestions.

The crude index I cobbled together in just over an hour this afternoon (something called work kept getting in the way!) provides a basis for discussion.

Airdrik - Yes, I agree with you.

Marquis de Sodaq - Capital on my side of the Pond You make some good observations. Have you a list of the "keywords" in alphabetical order? If so - can we all have a read?

Slow Thinker - I don't think you are impolite - you have as much right as anybody else to express your opinions.

The problems as I see them are:

1) We need a Great Library as a reference point for posters new and old.
2) This thread is ripe for closure because of its length, so there is a need for swift action. Ming has suggested a solution, which I believe we should adopt.
3) The information in the GL must have a better means of access - which in my opinion is an index.
4) There are many ways to create an index, (see above) can we read the list of keywords?
5) Once the index is in place, coupled with a discussion thread (which will allow you to promote your more elaborate ideas) we can gauge reaction. I would prefer to point something at the sky and see if it flies, rather than theorise about aerodynamics indefinitely!
6) No I don't think we should include any other sites. I'm sure there are some very capable people at CivFanatics, but I don't consider putting an index into the Apolyton GL should involve anyone else but us. Once you incorporate an outside body it will take years to agree anything! In the meantime this thread will be stretching from Liverpool to Prague - and the world will be enjoying CIV 14.

-------------------

SG(2)

[Scouse Gits]

An index begins to bring some order into the information in the GL. I have also included some references to interesting discussions not previously included in the Library. I'm sure many of your favourite threads will be missing - if so they can always be included.

Great Library Index
A
AC - Notable Landings with logs http://www.apolyton.net/forums/Forum...001770.html?27 http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000803.html?11 http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000748.html?16 http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000868.html?3#3 http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/001686.html?32 http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HT...7-2.html?76#76 http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HT...tml?date=06:29

B
Barbarians http://sleague.apolyton.net/Guides/sldt_barbtechs.shtml
Beaker Numbers http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HT...tml?date=17:02
C
Capital http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HT...tml?date=10:29
Cheats http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HT...tml?date=23:05
Combat Modification http://www.apolyton.net/forums/Forum...001798.html?11
Corruption and Waste http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HT...tml?date=21:17
D
Deity Level http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000940.html http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HT...tml?date=18:39
Diplomats and Spies http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum1/HT...678.html?36#36

E
Engineers http://www.apolyton.net/forums/Forum...001670.html?57

F
First Twenty Technologies - Discussion http://www.apolyton.net/forums/Forum...001319.html?22
Five Strategy http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HT...tml?date=21:30
G
General Information http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000880.html
H
Hidden Specials http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HT...tml?date=09:58
High Scores http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HT...tml?date=05:47

I
ICS - Infinite City Sleaze Strategy http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HT...tml?date=12:21
Intermediate Skills Discussion http://www.apolyton.net/forums/Forum...001236.html?90

J
K
L
M
N
O
OCC - One City Challenge http://members.home.nl/paulvdb/occ.htm
OCC with size 4 city http://www.apolyton.net/forums/Forum.../001811.html?8

P
Perfectionist Strategy Perfectionist Strategy

Q
R
Research Path http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/001533.html
Resource Square Usage http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000758.html?13
Revolution Years http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HT...tml?date=17:27
S
Scrolls of Wisdom http://stefan.winkler.net/civ2.html
Settlers http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000888.html?19
Spaceship Configurations http://www.apolyton.net/forums/Forum...001335.html?24
Spaceships http://www.apolyton.net/forums/Forum.../001248.html?9
Starting Techs http://www.apolyton.net/forums/Forum...001522.html?43

T
Trade http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HT...tml?date=08:12 http://apolyton.net/forums/Archives/...-3-000096.html http://www.apolyton.net/forums/Forum...001778.html?11

U
Unhappiness/due to number of cities http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/001279.html

V
W
We Love the - Day http://www.apolyton.net/forums/Forum...001603.html?23
Wonder Building http://www.apolyton.net/forums/Forum...001288.html?28

X
Y
Z

---------
SG(2)

[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited April 18, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited April 18, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited April 18, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits 4) There are many ways to create an index, (see above) can we read the list of keywords?

"The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits 6) No I don't think we should include any other sites. I'm sure there are some very capable people at CivFanatics, but I don't consider putting an index into the Apolyton GL should involve anyone else but us.

I was thinking about "condensed" threads. They could manage several topics at CivFanatics.

---

Closing this thread

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits 2) ... Ming has suggested a solution, which I believe we should adopt.

We should continue in the debate about the content of the first closed thread. Time of the closure may come soon. Our opinion are differentiated:
I would minimize the first closed thread and include links only, so that Ming needn't be asked for frequent unlocking.
See my post posted April 17, 2001 07:08.

[Ming]

Since this is such an important job that you guys are doing, I'm going to cut you a LOT of slack on when I close this thread. It still seems like you need to iron out a few differences. However, if it does take a LONG time for you guys to come to agreement, you might just have to start a new "discussion" thread and provide a link to this old thread. When the time is right, (and you guys tell me), I will archive this thread so that any link you use in the new thread is valid. (I want to archive this one instead of just closing it so that it doesn't accidently get swept out with the trash when normal housekeeping occurs)

Keep up the good work guys... the civ community appreciates it!

------------------
Ming
ACS Civ II & OT Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Re: Debating the content of the closed thread

I vote to have the GL's first post be a finalized version of SG2's quickie index, above. This will retain links to all knowledge deemed worthy. As librarians, we ought to filter out the useful threads from the hooey, excluding the latter.

In the spirit (and success) of the diplo/spy and combat threads, additional posts should be used for:

• Description of what the GL thread is,
• Description of what the different linked thread types are (discussion, strategy, info compilation, etc),
• Directions for use of the GL and any associated thread(s), such as where to comment or submit new info.

SG2, I know of many US/UK spelling differences, but capital/-ol is new to me! I agree that we need to get the GL flying instead of always ruminating about what can be...

[SlowThinker]

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq I vote to have the GL's first post be a finalized version of SG2's quickie index, above.

IMHO the placement of SG's index depends SG and Ming, they have to fix if the index will be included in the "top closed thread" or will be referred from:
SG, how often do you think to update it?
Ming, how often are you willing to unlock-lock the "top closed thread"?

But I suggest a separated thread for the index: people could send suggestions for interesting threads.

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq Description of what the GL thread is, Description of what the different linked thread types are (discussion, strategy, info compilation, etc), Directions for use of the GL and any associated thread(s), such as where to comment or submit new info.

Wouldn't you be willing to write it?
(I suppose a detailed description about the system of condensed threads and "keywords" would stay in "The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread (I will add "How to build a condensed thread" etc.), you could create only a brief lead-in with a link to "The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread.)

[Ming]

"Ming, how often are you willing to unlock-lock the "top closed thread"?"

As often as needed, but I don't assume this is something that would need to be done every day or so. And, if worse comes to worse, maybe I can ask MarkG and DanQ to make one of the "Keepers of the Library" a mod in just this forum. That would give one of you the ability to open and close the thread as needed. I don't think that would be necessary, but you never know

Again, the key here is to pick a format/option that everybody can work with. (so I can close this thread before I get to much grief for keeping something open past 150 )

------------------
Ming
ACS Civ II & OT Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

[Scouse Gits]

May I suggest that we follow Marquis de Sodaq's suggestion.

In the next couple of days I will attempt to smarten up the basic index with an introduction and more descriptive links.

When this is done Ming can cut and paste the index into a new locked thread. This current thread can then be archived.

The open discussion thread that will complement the locked thread will give an opportunity for Slow Thinker and others, to discuss the evolution of a GL in a different format. Perhaps we should have a simple index running in parallel with a more elaborate alternative - I don't see a problem with that approach. However, in my opinion Slow Thinker's ideas will take more time than we have at present - even if Ming is generous in allowing this current thread to run on borrowed time.

----------------

SG(2)

[Mixam]

Ok seeing as how i cannot figure out if there is a great library yet or not I decided to read the entire thread. Darned but i only made it to page 2 b4 i fell asleep. Being very dedicated to finding this out i started reading again when i woke up. Made it to page 4 and i am getting pretty tired

Please help me out. I found a few good links in the posts but I really wanna find the GL if it exists yet *yawn*.

Maybe after I wake up again i will make it to the end and won't need this answered. This post may only be 5 pages long but I click on everylink and end up reading for a while till i find another link pretty soon i have to hit back on the browser 3 times to get back to this thread

Ok I am done rambling

[SlowThinker]

Mix(i )am,
wait couple days, SG will create a basis of the GL.

SG,
OK.