Partisans

[Blaupanzer]

We have had some discussion recently as to what tech generates partisans. My question is how does the program determine the number of partisans a given city produces. City size, civ size, tech level, and time frame all seem to play. However, I can't put my finger on what, exactly, causes some cities to fill every unoccupied square, while others produce 4 or 5. I have had two cases in a recent game where the number of partisans appeared to be greater than the pop of the city taken. I know occupying squares in the city radius prior to a city's fall can help reduce the number, but what determines that number.

[EdwardTKing]

Sid Meir's Civilization II: The Official Strategy Guide

Page 146:

"Note: After you discover Guerrilla Warfare, the number of Partisans you receive when one of your cities is captured increases, while the number of Partisans your opponents receive when you capture one of their cities decreases."

Page 278:

"The number of Partisans that appears is based on a number of factors (random and otherwise), but the general rule is that the bigger the city, the more Partisans you receive at the time the city is captured."

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Communism triggers them initially, n'est-ce pas? This would reflect historical accuracy, in any case.

Population must be the primary factor. What else plays in to make a unique number? How about something specific to each city, such as the number/type of improvements present (or destroyed?) upon sacking. Or the sacked civ's GNP, happiness level, or some such ranking? Just a brainstorm, no real reason to suspect one way or the other... It's likely just a random number based on the population.

------------------
"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

[SlowThinker]

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq Communism triggers them initially, n'est-ce pas?

Many people think so, but I don't:

a remind: Partisans emerging after bribing a city
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited May 08, 2001).]

[Rufus T. Firefly]

slowthinker - For what it's worth, and in reference to the thread you link to above: In a current SP game (ToT, 7 civs, raging), I just started the push for world conquest. I've taken the cities of four different civs (1 by attack, 3 by bribery) in the last couple of turns, and got partisans from all of them. Nobody has guerilla warfare; everybody has communism. Interestingly enough, though -- here back to blaupanzer's original question -- the cities taken ranged in size from size-3 to size-8, but each generated only 1 partisan.

------------------
Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder
[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly (edited May 09, 2001).]

[Smash]

It is Communism.No doubt about it.

[Scouse Gits]

Hear, hear - Communism allows partisans to appear...

ST - we have had several situations that appear to have defeated the Cheat Menu - certainly enough to put any findings dependant upon it at doubt...

------------------
Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library has been built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[La Fayette]

I love to open a city to the barbs and get partisans when they take the city (then bribe it back later on, of course).
I seem to remember that this can happen before discovering communism.
The trigger would then be RESEARCHING COMMUNISM.
Dear friends testers: open your labs!
(I'll be trying to win ww2 as neutral leader meanwhile)

------------------
aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[Blaupanzer]

I suspected (feared) a thread like this might go to what tech causes partisans. I'm still more interested here in how the number gets determined.

(Marquis: No, in the real world, Communism is a result, not the cause, of the partisan and guerilla revolts of the industrial age. Napoleon's army waded thru them in Spain, Poland and Hungary filled with them in 1848, and other examples can be provided from Latin America and the Czech regions all prior to the writing of the Manifesto. My own observation is that they start in Civ II when any nation develops Communism, like a trigger. [Thanks, Lafayette! Perhaps it is starting the research that counts!] The rules provided by Edward seem to reinforce that, talking of increases at Guerilla Warfare and not an initializing. Still, I wondered if someone either had the time to look at, or had already looked at, what factors might determine the numbers.)
[This message has been edited by Blaupanzer (edited May 10, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

savegames?

[Thoddy]

quote: Originally posted by Blaupanzer on 05-10-2001 05:00 PM Still, I wondered if someone either had the time to look at, or had already looked at, what factors might determine the numbers.) [This message has been edited by Blaupanzer (edited May 10, 2001).]

I think, it generally depends on the number of happy people in the city, with modifications by guerilla warfare, city sqares with hills, mountains, rivers, forests, city squares occupied by others.

[Thoddy]

my last message was definitively false.

[Smash]

well not entirely.The number of partisans depends on the size of city captured....not happys but citizens none the less.

I never thought I'd miss the party boys,but compaqred to the defection thing of civ3...partisans are much more realistic.In civ3 you capture a city.Then-poof--the city defects back taking all your occupying units and throwing them into oblivion.I don't recall hearing of a captured city switching back the next day.Partisans represented local resistance pefectly.It doesn't cripple you.It draws some resources away while you "put down" the resistance.I have always considered partisans a major pain.But i have never wanted to smash something because of them.Can't say the same thing about civ3 defections.....

Some of my fun has been replaced by rage

[Thoddy]

I have made a comprehensive test
some months ago
see this url:
http://civ2-forum.gamigo.de/showthread.php?threadid=753

[TCO]

How about giving us the high points in English?

Ich verstehe nicht Deutsch.

Slow, they come from communism. The strat guide is wrong. You can only build them after GT. But they pop up after commie.

[Blaupanzer]

Thoddy, My German is pretty rusty. Could you repost your formula here with an explanation in English? In one area, the formula may be correct, but the result is not. My experience is that after Partisan Warfare is developed, the minimum number of partisans is 1, not zero. Must be some sort of an "if" statement in the programming. Thanks for doing the testing.

[Caligastia]

I think you will have more partisans around the city if there are more squares with hills.

[Thoddy]

following things had an effect: technologies at attacker, technologies at defender, city-size, government, occupied citysquares
if cityfounded by attacker->no partisans pop up

no effect: unhappy, contend, happy people; wltxd, cityimprovements, killed defender/attacker, decrease of inhabitants by siege, type of terrain

there are roundings within the formula - so not expected results occur

variables
tague-technology researched by attacker- guerilla warefare 1 yes, 0=no
tdcom-technology researched by defender-communism 1=yes, 0=no
tdgue-technology researched by defender-guerilla warefare 1=yes, 0=no
govindexD- form of government defender index value
govindexA- form of government attacker index value
Index Values
Anarchy=1,Desp=2, Mon=3, Com=4, Fund=5, Rep =6, Dem=7

BND basic number defender
city size 4-11 BND= 4
city size 12-19 BND=9
city size 20-27 BND=15? (testing not available-only 18 city squares)
and so on

BNA basic number attacker - (if Guerilla warefare researched by attacker, if not zero)
city size 4-11 BNA=4
city size 12-19 BNA=8
city size 20-27 BNA=12
and so on

This basic numbers are calculated- including roundings

formula: simplified model no roundings

partisans=tdcom*{[BND]+[BND*tdgue-tague*BNA]-[6-(abs(govindexD-govindexA))*(tdcom+tdgue-tague)] }

For better readability some brackets replaced
terms in [] belong together
negative values=0 partisans

hope that helps
formula corrected 26.06.02 (tvgue*BNA)->tague*BNA)

[Blaupanzer]

Thanks. Looks good. When (if?) I can tear myself away from Civ III will do a little confirmation testing. Again, thanks for your efforts.

[Thoddy]

bump

[Straybow]

"BND*tdgue-tdgue*BNA" = tdgue(BND-BNA) or is it supposed to be
BND*tdgue-tague*BNA ??

[Thoddy]

If I remember right

tague is correct.

If attacker has guerilla tactics the number of emerging partisans decreases.

[SlowThinker]

It looks good! I missed these results last year...

Thoddy,
I suppose BND is related to the conquered city (which produces partisans). But what is BNA?

city size under BNA/BND: do you mean the city size before or after the capture?

Originally posted by Thoddy
BNA basic number attacker - (if Guerilla warefare researched by attacker, if not zero)
city size 4-14 BNA=4

I suppose there should be
city size 4-11 BNA=4

[Thoddy]

BNA- If attacker has guerilla warfare the number of emerging partisans is reduced by this number, depending on city size.

Maybe its possible to create a better formula. I post lots of results of my test in the german forum postet above, so anybody who wants can create a better formula.

city size under BNA/BND: do you mean the city size before or after the capture?

before

I suppose there should be city size 4-11 BNA=4

corrected

I see I was somthing dizzy when I post the results of testing.

[Thoddy]

Originally posted by Caligastia
I think you will have more partisans around the city if there are more squares with hills.

definitively no

defensive terrain has the only effect where the emerging partisans were placed .
first partisan to the best devensive terrain and so on.
There is a special pattern of setting the Partisans you can see, if all terrain is the same.

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Thoddy
BNA- If attacker has guerilla warfare the number of emerging partisans is reduced by this number, depending on city size.

I am a slow thinker! I thought the BNA should pertain to some attacker's city. Now I think both BNA and BND are related to the conquered city. Am I right?

[TCO]

slow do you finally agree that communism lets loose the evil of partisans. (They are available before Guerilla warfare?) You debated this a long time ago...

[Thoddy]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
I am a slow thinker! I thought the BNA should pertain to some attacker's city. Now I think both BNA and BND are related to the conquered city. Am I right?

Its right.
BNA and BND are related to the conquered city.

slow do you finally agree that communism lets loose the evil of partisans. (They are available before Guerilla warfare?) You debated this a long time ago...

Partisans emerge from conquering cities if the citydefender has communism even without Guerilla warfare.

Guerilla warfare is only required for producing partisans.

[Thoddy]

double Post

[Starlifter]

by GP:

slow do you finally agree that communism lets loose the evil of partisans. (They are available before Guerilla warfare?) You debated this a long time ago..

GP, are you saying that it is only Communism that unleashes Partisans? And nothing else?

ST or GP, Is it possible to provide a link to that discussion? I would like to read it.




A couple observations:

A. Communism is not necessary to produce Partisans.

B. You can have Communism, and not produce Partisans.




The key is the combination of 3 techs:

1. Gunpowder
2. Communism
3. Guerilla warfare

1+2 = Partisans
3 alone = Partisans

1 alone = No Partisans!
2 alone = No Partisans!

In words, anytime civ possess Guerilla Warfare, the civ's captured cities can spew Partisans.

If you have Communism, but No Gunpowder and No Guerilla Warfare, then no Partisans emerge.


So Communism alone will not unleash the evils of Partisans .

But Communism alone is not too common, however... most people discover Gunpowder by then, but it is not necessary to do so. Of course, to have neither Gunpowder nor Communism yet possess GW means you need outside help, like stealing a tech, capturing or trading a tech, or a preset game.

This also means Thoddy's equation, while valid in one context, is only a partial solution to the final Partisan issue.

PS, Nice work, Thoddy! My only work on this was for size 13 and below a couple years ago, with a manual table and no formula.... brute force testing, LOL!