what the heck is this new "Longevity" wonder anyway?

[monkspider]

Allow me to quote a firaxis member for a moment; "There is, however, a new Great Wonder (Longevity) which provides a similar pop boom."

Longevity?
What is this trying to reflect? How is this a wonder?
This is such an abstract concept, it's difficult to try to visualize this as a great wonder.

Let's refer to Webster's dictionary on this one

lon·gev·i·ty (ln-jv-t, lôn-)
n. pl. lon·gev·i·ties

1. Long life; great duration of life: His longevity vexed his heirs.
Length or duration of life: comparing the longevities of the two peoples.
2. Long duration or continuance, as in an occupation: had unusual longevity in the company; her longevity as a star.

Interesting, but a wonder? Perhaps something else could have been used to reflect Longevity, but not simply the word Longevity itself. Maybe the rock of Gibraltor or something. I don't know, but you get the point.
At this point I am somewhat critical of this abstract concept being considered a wonder, it seems as hokey as the whole "rider" thing. IMHO

[ixnay]

I think this is supposed to replace the futuristic Cure for Cancer wonder, as in the Longevity Vaccine in SMAC. I believe it is a medical concept of extending the length of life for people.

[monkspider]

It's very possible that you are right Kyller, but why not "Cure for Cancer" rather than the hokey "longevity".
I always liked that Cure for Cancer was a wonder, I can't imagine why it would be replaced by an abstract concept.

[Dienstag]

I agree..."Longevity" does not have that classic Wonder of the World feel to it. I was hopeing they'd be getting away from arbitrary, intangible wonders like Women's Suffrage. I want a building or a monument in my city, not an icon.

Also, I can understand why no one else could build the pyramids in Civ II. It was inherently an Egyptian thing (with almost an exception in the New World, I know, but hey...) But can you imagine saying to your citizens "Sorry, the Portugese built Longevity, so you have to die now." That's just wrong.

In CivII the demographics included life expectancy, and maybe someone around here knows exactly what that was based on, and what effects it had. I don't. That would be interesting to find out...

OK, I agree with monkspider that "Longevity" would make a really hokey wonder. Anybody disagree?

[Dienstag]

Yeah, Cure for Cancer would be much more acceptable to me too.

[FrostyBoy]

It's CTP all over again...

[DanS]

Firaxis is showing that they're really on the ball. Longevity is a concept that is right around the corner. Might be much sooner than a general cure for cancer, although there have been good advances there too.

Yes, I know. It sounds odd. Downright bizarre. But consider that Firaxis is quite near one of the finest medical institutions in the world (Johns Hopkins) with one of the top longevity programs.

sn00py: I'm almost insulted for Firaxis' sake. Take it back.

[ixnay]

Yeah, it sounds kind of hokey, but maybe Firaxis knows something we don't.

[DanS]

Kyller: I would count on it. There have been rumors in Washington for a couple of years now (Washington is particularly interested in demographic structure, as you might imagine). Some of the details are weird, so I don't know how much stock to put in them.

[monkspider]

Good thoughts DanS, and I will love the game regardless of possibly hokily named wonders. But ya still gotta wonder (no pun intended) what their real rationale is? What is the story behind this? What motivated Sid and his pals to create this wonder? This is certainly beyond intangible wonders like Women's Suffrage or even the old Cure for Cancer, this isn't even an event. It is simply a state of being. By this same reasoning "Equality" or "Happiness" or even "Wisdom" could be considered "Wonders of the World". If Sid and the gang want to create a wonder that reflects a greatly increased lifespan, they ought to stick with Cure for Cancer or use something similar (Penicillin perhaps?).

[monkspider]

Your info certainly gives us optimism for these trying times DanS.

[Pembleton]

Edit: This post was misunderstood and I decided just to delete it altogether.

[Harlan]

I think its safe to assume that Longevity will be a small wonder, meaning any civ can build it. But still, this should be a technology, not a wonder, even a small one! Some techs in Civ2 gave specific advantages, like +1 naval movement with Nuclear Power, that's how this one should work as well. Same problem with another wonder officially mentioned, Battlefield Medicine. Both of these are technologies that are not tied to one city, as wonders are. Lets say you built these two wonders in Baltimore, and Baltimore is conquered. Everyone in your civ suddenly stops living as long? The medics on the battlefield suddenly stop knowing what to do? I think not.

I agree that if the name is changed to something more concrete, it would be easier to buy. Human Genome Project for example, could conceivably lead to longer life, and is easier to envision as exsisting in a certain city (though even that is a stretch these days).

Who knows, perhaps they'll outsmart us all and have two kinds of wonders, abstract, which though built by a certain city, does not exist in concrete form and can't be destroyed, and concrete. That doesn't fit with their less complexities the better approach, though.

[DanS]

Pembleton: I don't agree with any aspect of your post. Indeed, I find it revolting and think you're FOS (no offense meant ). However, that's a question for off-topic.

[monkspider]

Exactly, I agree with you completely Harlan. I am interested to hear Firaxis' thoughts on this subject.

[Pembleton]

Originally posted by Harlan
I think its safe to assume that Longevity will be a small wonder, meaning any civ can build it.

Soren Johnson said it was a Great Wonder.

[Pembleton]

Sorry, I decided to delete this one as well.

[DanS]

No, you said something about what you term overpopulation, which then resulted in perceived irony. In short, I don't think there's such a thing as "overpopulation". It's a big lie. But, again, this is an off topic discussion if I've ever seen one and I don't think I've flamed you in any respect.

edit: there wasn't misunderstanding, as far as I can tell. You hold a common view. I find it revolting and ill-conceived. That's all. Don't take it personally, 'cause I haven't.

As this wonder relates directly to Civ3, I would remind you that it is a macroeconomic concept that population x labor participation rate x hour units worked per person x productivity factor = output. This is probably abstracted (with slight modificactions) to population x productivity factor in Civ3, which isn't really nuanced, but seems to do the job satisfactorally. But the Civ3 construct puts even more stress on relative population structure versus your competitors than actually happens in real life.

[saracen31]

Sounds like a pretty weak wonder name to me. I'd rather see tangible wonders: The Hoover Dam, The Great Wall, etc.

[Pembleton]

Originally posted by DanS
No, you said something about what you term overpopulation, which then resulted in perceived irony. In short, I don't think there's such a thing as "overpopulation". It's a big lie. But, again, this is an off topic discussion if I've ever seen one and I don't think I've flamed you in any respect.

Off-topic. Um...I'm not sure why you're so concerned about this. I would consider piracy to be off-topic, but I have no objection to it being discussed here in this forum. If you mean off-topic as in not actually speaking of the thread's topic, I would say many threads go off tangent all the time.

But if you don't want to discuss it, that's fine with me.

One question which I'm really curious about though. Do you object to China's one child per family rule?

[DanS]

Most emphatically. Partly because it's not in China's long term interest. We have a lot of odd conceptions ( ) in parts of the world why population is bad. But the concern is way overblown and misplaced. Economic growth = growth in hour units worked + growth in productivity per hour. While Civ3 isn't a model, per se, it does reflect, in part, this reality.

In the US, for instance, we have a quite high labor participation rate and our people already work harder than any other large country in the world. So we have to import labor to maintain economic growth. The result is a good for all involved. The US was built from the ground up on this premise.

[Pembleton]

Originally posted by DanS
Economic growth = growth in hour units worked + growth in productivity per hour.

Well I don't want to go into a full-blown discussion, but economics is a *social* science, not a physical one.

Your equation seems to imply that there is some immutable concept such as growth that can always be mathematically calculated and not dependent on psychological or unquantifiable concepts.

Anyway, I have no desire to continue this debate. As if right now, I'm going to bed.

[DanS]

As you wish. I don't care to continue it either, outside the bounds of Civ3. If you're interested in learning more, you can talk to el freako, Kautilya, Adam Smith, or Roland (not an economist, but he's knowledgeable). In any event, yes it's an immutable truth, at least within the confines of a social science.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Uh... economic growth can be calculated by math .

[Rhysie]

They should rename longevity the 'National Health Service' - A free to all citizens hospital system which generally increases health and life expectancy throughout your empire.

I know that the modern day NHS is a bit pap, but the concept is there, and it was good a few decades ago.

[DanS]

Rhysie: doesn't really relate to any health service, considering that universal health insurance or a social health service might add a couple of years to a life. Tops. Interestingly, if you add, say, 40 years to the prime of life, the cost of universal health insurance or a social health service would be more easily borne by the larger population.

[Rhysie]

Originally posted by DanS
Rhysie: doesn't really relate to any health service, considering that universal health insurance or a social health service might add a couple of years to a life. Tops. Interestingly, if you add, say, 40 years to the prime of life, the cost of universal health insurance or a social health service would be more easily borne by the larger population.

I agree that an NHS wonder wouldn't fit the idea of massive population growth perfectly, but I think its the closest real world (i.e. not near future, but now) thing which matches the concept of a longevity wonder. It's also something which wouldn't be 'shared' with other civilizations (A cure for cancer would either be shared with, or also discovered by, other civilizations, meaning that it wouldn't just affect yours, an NHS system, as seen in the real world, doesn't automatically get set up in other countries after a few years.)

[DanS]

Not only doesn't it fit population growth perfectly, it doesn't fit it at all and in any way. For instance, I'm guessing that the US doesn't have as long of life expectancy as that of Europe because we work too damn much creating games like Civ3 and wonders like longevity. Nothing to do with a concept similar to NHS. Firaxis knows this to be true.

You would be better off creating a "household pets" wonder.

[SITS]

I suspect that today's longer life span is due to humans reaching their natural capacity because of correct diet, medicine etc as opposed to a pill that makes us live longer (unless you are a fan of QVC that is...) The Longevity Wonder seems to have a different concept and to be honest I cannot see how it fits into the Civ world. Unless Civ3 goes on for longer than Civ2 and enters into the realm of SMAC but then from what I understand the first civ to build the space-ship wins which wouldn't leave much time for this wonder....

I wonder if Firaxis could comment further to clarify?

[korn469]

the longevity wonder sounds like it would work in the same way as the cloning vats did in SMAC, once you built the CV in SMAC, then every city with a +2 food surplus would experiance a population boom (the city would grow in size); it was a midgame wonder in SMAC and very powerful, against the AI once you built the CV it was virtually impossible to lose

if longevity works in the same way, but comes later in the tech tree, it might not be so overwhelming...hopefully firaxis can clarify its effect and tech requirment

EDIT:

DanS, it seems like to me that the current methods of extending lifespan might not contribute as much to economic growth as your formula would indicate...for one thing i would say that for the most part 70 year old workers aren't as productive as 25 year old workers, so although the total units are going up the productivity is going down

another thing it seems like the best way to boost worker productivity is by providing the workers with better tools and methods of performing a task, so capital expenditures and education have a huge impact on productivity

a larger but less productive workforce might not experiance any economic growth at all, or could even experiance negative economic growth

so the longevity wonder has little in common with population booms...they should get rid the longevity wonder, and make the statue of liberty create pop booms (an abstract of massive immigration) which would be historically accurate