America isn't old enough to be in Civ3

[SerapisIV]

Originally posted by Your.Master
The war of independence did not change the fact that Americans are essentially English-speaking people with English ideals. Sure, there are subtle differences, but not civ-breaking.

Damn, my Polish godfather and Italian godmother wouldn't like that. Throw in my Irish heritage, and you have quite a few nationalities in the US who aren't too pleased about being told they have English ideals. My Armenian roommate wouldn't be too peachy either. How about my thermo prof who's father was a Japanese-American trooper in WWII in Italy? Not too much English ideals there.

[Rosacrux]

Come on people, get off that horse. No, the american civilization (well... whatever you can call "civilization" those colonial savages have come up with ) is not an english civilization. Sure, it's roots are back into the whol anglo-saxon tradition, but it has surpassed its roots nowadays.

Of course USA is not the ideal "melting pot" everybody there was so proud about a few decades ago. More and more ethnic groups (greatest of them being the latinos-hispanic) are not "melting into the pot". That could cause loads of trouble in the coming years, but it might just be sings of times and it could change back to the "normal".

The standing hegemony of the WASP ideals is not really powerfull or omnipresent anymore, but I wouldn't discard it that easy.

Fact is, USA has a distinct (something like) Civilization. As previously mentioned, Blues, McDonalds, gas-eating "cars", crappy overrated chicks, rednecks, the Big Blue, Baseball, piss-for-beer (read: Bud), American "Footbal", (WWF-style) Wrestling, Hollywood, Britney Spears - those are all parts of what we call "American Civilization".

Denouncing that is simply stupid. And there ain't no civil-o-meter around to measure wether their civ is "good" or "bad" or whatever... so, let's just stick with them and see what happens

[Sarxis]

well, I almost posted some things here I would have been ashamed of later, so I won't.

Let us live in dandelion peace and in marshmellow dreams!

[FrostyBoy]

There are far too many posts for me to read, but I want to just post my opinion on this debate.

The answer is quite simple; it is based on how you want to make the game Civilization.

If you want it to be realistic, then you would have to put in the first 16 civilizations that first existed, no matter who they are.

If it's not that way, it's the civ's who made the most impact, but trying to keep some variety (the reason for Iroquoi and Zulu's).


Personally, and I think a better thing to do, is to do what Civ is about; "recreating civilization", not starting off with a current one. So in the ideal Civilization game, you start off with a bunch of unknowns, name them what you want, and as time moves on, other civs are created and your civ name could change due to wars and so forth. This would be a more realistic way and (I think) better way to make a civilization game.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

The Brits are still hailing the Last Charge of the Light Brigade as a victory

Where did you get that from????

I got 2 sources for you.
1> My friend from England
2>Blood, Tears, and Folly, a book on WW2 by Len Deighton, a british author.

Most Brits probably don't know what, when or where the charge was.

And who was saying that Americans did not know about their history (might be in this thread or another)

If you want examples of British views on victory then the Falklands

People say that only America goes into places like the Middle East and messes things up. Well heres a European country going to Argentina and messing things up.

In a nutshell, your statement is wholly false.

In a nutshell, my statement is more than just those points

quote:
America has invented the suburb, another cultural thing

Riiiigggghhhtt.

You bet. Unlike in Europe where you put all the poor people around the outside the cities, in the US we put all poor people in the middle, and all the rich on the outside.

The UK hasn't had them ever, since its inception 300 years ago.

So you're saying that the UK has only existed for 300 years? If so, what gives them more worth in being in Civ3? The US has been around for almost 250 years. If you go further back than that, you can see a Viking, and Roman invasion, and Angle and Saxon invasions.

Were if not for the US the middle east might not whitness everyday slaughter, justice would be served and the whole place would be free to do what the local populations want, not what Exxon and their likes wish... And also, we wouldn't have experienced the Frankestein creations of USA - Saddamn Hussein etc.

And why is the US in the middle East? Because we care to protect the Jews from another holocaust. Unlike you Euros who can't see further than your nose, we feel responsible for the death of 6 million Jews. Now, maybe your country has other responsibilities, but we try to keep history from repeating itself. Sure, we've made mistakes with Saddam Husseing, but who was their to back us up the whole way during the Cold War? NATO. and NATO is the whole of Western Europe. And besides, Europe doesn't deal with Saddam Husseing. They'd rather forgive and forget and deal arms to him.

they were just the ones in the bottom of the social/economical/mental barel here and we had to get rid of them

And people like these have worked hard and made America something your bourgeois Europe can only wish to have.

Money. We buy your crappy no-good products and fill your pockets with money. Take away from USA the international commerce and you end up with a nation bankrupt.

If its crappy, so why do you buy it? Take away the USA from the international commerce and you end up with a whole CONTINENT bankrupt.

Brains. We give you our best brains and you use them to make more crappy products, sell them to us and thous make more money.

And why do they leave? You don;t just give them to us. They leave on their own will. They leave because they know that (a) its extremely hard to become rich in Europe (high taxes) and (b)a lot of those brains are poor people who know that if they work hard in the US, they can succeed because people arnt as stuck up.

Air space, harbours, airports, bases etc. for your mighty US Armed Forces... without us, your force can't even supply toilet paper to whipe your sailors butts

Without US, you wouldn't know how to fly.

Tradition and heritage. Most americans are proud to call themselves "afro-american" "Italian" (plain) "Greek-American" "I-don't-know-what-American" etc. You try to get some roots, because you don't have any in your own country.

Unlike the homogeneous Europe, people in America come from many different backrounds. Is it wrong to call yourself African-American? or Greek-American? Europeans dont understand what the essence of being American is. This huge melting pot of different cultures makes us Americans. People understand, that no matter who you are, we are all in this together. The reason for calling yourself African-American or Greek-American is so you can identify yourself with the many large and different cultural groups in America today. Why do French arabs call themselves Arabs? Or British Pakitanis call themselves Pakistani? Its the same everywhere, except you havn't opened your eyes. How can you critize another country if you don't even know your own?

The first democracy after the ancient world (not the Roman Republic, dear, the last standing democracy was that in the Greek city states that got overrun during the 2nd century BC by the Roman oligarchy - that is the meaning of a "Republic" in the Roman way, at least after the 4th century BC - oligarchy) was the United Kingdom.

So here you say that being democratic means that you have a king and where 2/3 of the country cannot vote, and here

What democracy are you talking about? USA is still an oligarchy - definitely not a democracy. In democracy at least most people go to vote (if not participating actively in the public affairs). In USA the voting percentage of the adult population is about 20% - and don't give me the crap "they have the right but they don't

you say that the USA is not a democracy where every US citizen has the right to vote. In the UK theres something called the House of Lords. These guys are there because of birthright. Sure, they don't have much power, but just having this useless wing of politics is crazy.

This latest election, 49% of the country voted.

And the real power is not in the hands of the government - your president is merely a puppet, a front man to play a role on a large scale. An actor, so to say. Real power resides in the hands of the industrial/military complex, in the big corporations and in the secret services officials.

Are you some sort of paranoid ultra right wing person? Granted, with GWB, hes just a front man (hes too stupid to lead) The army does not have any power in the US government. they do not make foreign policy. Big corporations also do not have as much influence as you think. And you were the one saying that were ignorant? Look at yourself.

But USA is not a democracy, not even now... it's an oligarchic republic.

Its called a Representational Republic. Where representatives represent the people. In the UK, its a Constitutional Monarchy. The US system is way more democratic than the UK system.

The war of independence did not change the fact that Americans are essentially English-speaking people with English ideals. Sure, there are subtle differences, but not civ-breaking.

Another ignorant Euro

[Akaoz]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia

People say that only America goes into places like the Middle East and messes things up. Well heres a European country going to Argentina and messing things up.

They intervined in the Falklands. The Falklands are a British prtotectorat i think.

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia

Without US, you wouldn't know how to fly.

Heh...

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia


Unlike the homogeneous Europe, people in America come from many different backrounds. Is it wrong to call yourself African-American? or Greek-American? Europeans dont understand what the essence of being American is. This huge melting pot of different cultures makes us Americans. People understand, that no matter who you are, we are all in this together. The reason for calling yourself African-American or Greek-American is so you can identify yourself with the many large and different cultural groups in America today. Why do French arabs call themselves Arabs? Or British Pakitanis call themselves Pakistani? Its the same everywhere, except you havn't opened your eyes. How can you critize another country if you don't even know your own?

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia


Its called a Representational Republic. Where representatives represent the people. In the UK, its a Constitutional Monarchy. The US system is way more democratic than the UK system.

Do you know what an oligarchi is?

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia


Another ignorant Euro

Heh, nuff said.

-Alech

[Sir Hawkeye]

In response to the point "America can't be a civ because it came from England and Europe" I shall do some math.

America = England + Continental Europe + Small influence form many cultures.

England = Norman + Saxon + Welsh

Norman = French + Scandinavian
Saxon = Germanic + Roman

French = Germanic + Rome
Scandinavian = Germanic + Lapp

Rome = Etruscan + Hellenistic
Hellenistic = Greek + Persian + Egyptian

Greek = Cretian + Dorian

Note: Some of this may not be completely correct, as I do not have a history book, but the point still stands.

So, Essentially, only those civilizations which sprang wholecloth from hunter-gatherer tribes can be counted?

[Stuie]

This just in:

IT'S A ****IN' GAME, PEOPLE.

It does not matter what sides are included, they could be named after different colors and have amorphous blobs as their leaders. But that wouldn't be as much fun, would it?

In the end, if you don't like one of the Civs included, edit them out and stick in something more to your liking. All this bravado does nothing but exacerbate idiocy.


(Note to self: Avoid stupid "Civ X should not be in the game" threads)

[TCO]

Hey we invented the civ game ffer crying out loud!!! We rock!!! USA! USA!

'Nuf said...

[Rosacrux]

Yo GP, I am with you! And Sid is an USO too, so you are welcome in the game

Lawrence: Grow up, buy a clue (or two if you are at it) read, get a life... whatever, just don't reply rabbish to a very thoughtfull, inteligent and playfull post


Sir Hawkeye Lovely, just lovely... introduce me to your history teacher, I'll be quite enthusiastic about spanking his/hers butt really hard... Ohmnigosh, would you join Lawrence in buying a clue, please?

[August Borms]

Originally posted by Rosacrux
Lawrence: Grow up, buy a clue (or two if you are at it) read, get a life... whatever, just don't reply rabbish to a very thoughtfull, inteligent and playfull post

I think he's just trolling

[Fresno]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
And why is the US in the middle East? Because we care to protect the Jews from another holocaust. Unlike you Euros who can't see further than your nose, we feel responsible for the death of 6 million Jews. Now, maybe your country has other responsibilities, but we try to keep history from repeating itself. Sure, we've made mistakes with Saddam Husseing, but who was their to back us up the whole way during the Cold War? NATO. and NATO is the whole of Western Europe. And besides, Europe doesn't deal with Saddam Husseing. They'd rather forgive and forget and deal arms to him.

You say we Europeans don't feel responsible for the holocaust? This is a rough insult! The big difference between the USA and Europe is we did learn from what happened, i.e., we also feel responsible for those oppressed Palestinians. And when it comes to dealing arms, believe me, many wars in Africa can only continue because of American weapons.

If you want to look politically interesting, fine, but don't accuse Europe of nazi sympathies. We also don't say all Americans are KKK.

[Panzer]

As far as I am concerned the Americans are more then welcome in Civ3. After all, Americans, French, English, Zulus etc., they will eventually bow before the mighty Istharian Empire led by me!

What I mean to say is that I'm gonna make my own custom Civ, so the Americans can be in the game as far as I am concerned. The more Civs I get to crush, the merrier.

[Dauphin]

So you're saying that the UK has only existed for 300 years?

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was formed in 1801. The United Kingdom of England and Scotland was formed in 1707. The "United Kingdom" of England was formed (embryonically) in the 9th century.

[FrostyBoy]

I just gave you the damn answer, so why are ppl continuing the debate?

[Dauphin]

1) Last word syndrome
2) Post count syndrome
3) Ignoring you syndrome
4) Troll syndrome

Everyone here probably falls into one category or other

[Pseud0nym]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
1) Last word syndrome
2) Post count syndrome
3) Ignoring you syndrome
4) Troll syndrome

Everyone here probably falls into one category or other

Eh? Whats all that mean then? I don't have any warts or live under a bridge! I'm not going to whine after the votes have been counted! I think I'm gonna just ignore you. And thats the last word on that.

[Draco aka Se7eN]

Oh get over yourself. I remember debates like this one way back on the old BBS's on the early '90s when Civ1 was the hottest game ever. It is an _old_ debate.

No This whole america is not a civ bullsh@t is F@($ing old. Excuse my language. And its F#%@ing Sickening that it still continues. Most of you people sit here and argue and bicker and not one God Damn thing is accomplished. Like a bunch of F*#@ing babies. waahhh america isnt a civ waaaahhh yeah it is.
This went on for weeks a couple of months ago and yes i was involved in the arguement too. And i didnt acomplish anything. Anything anyone says in a thread like this doesnt mean Sh*t. Including myself, i know that what im writing now wont do anything. All you dipsh*ts will continue this pointless annoying waste of time arguement. Verywell. have fun.

Everyone on both sides of the arguement are too friggen stubern to change their mind anyway. I hope you all know that.

And another thing, america is in the game too. You do know that too right.

I also hope you know that if you dont want america in the game that you will have to edit the game.

I would like to say that i think that some of you lack reading skills, commen sense, and intelligence yet you still insist on arguing. You know who you are.

I hope this thread is deleted. Along with my post, in fact delete my post.

P.S. I know that i have probably insulted most of you by writing this since most people like to keep things simple and easy and dont like to question what they do or why they do it. So the first thing that i expect certain people to do is mock my spelling and grammer mistakes (which i feel is a natural reaction to something that removes the blindfold that sheilds us from reality) Now your probably thinking, this guy is insane and hes full of it.

Go ahead and bash away, not that it will acomplish anything.

You know what would acomplish something. IF you all just droped this lame go no where subject.

HEhe i bet your mad right now and you probably havent read all of my post and your responding now. IF you did read it all i hope you actually read it and didnt just skim through. Then again i wouldnt read this post if i were you anyway.

So go ahead and call me a troll, not that will acomplish anything eaither.

Personally i think that anyone who even posts in this thread is a troll. I guess that would include myself.

You know what the best thing you could do, even though you wont do it, is not even respond to me. Just a hint. Cause i dont know if you can tell but im pretty annoyed. So please dont waste your time and correct my spelling and grammer, that annoy's me more. If i wanted to spell correctly and use proper grammer i would but i dont care one bit.

You could say this is me passing the time while i wait for CIV 3.

Yeah thats it.

MUHAHAHHAHAHHA

drop the subject.

[Dry]

Originally posted by Sir Hawkeye
In response to the point "America can't be a civ because it came from England and Europe" I shall do some math.

America = England + Continental Europe + Small influence form many cultures.

England = Norman + Saxon + Welsh

Norman = French + Scandinavian
Saxon = Germanic + Roman

French = Germanic + Rome
Scandinavian = Germanic + Lapp

Rome = Etruscan + Hellenistic
Hellenistic = Greek + Persian + Egyptian

Greek = Cretian + Dorian

Note: Some of this may not be completely correct, as I do not have a history book, but the point still stands.

So, Essentially, only those civilizations which sprang wholecloth from hunter-gatherer tribes can be counted?

(joke)Jesus! An American with a brain and who uses it! Incredible!(/joke)

I 100% agree with this post.
I would also say that the problem is that the game is called 'civilization' while some factions are just 'nations'.
The concepts nation and civilization could be mixed for Egyptian, Babylonian (not sure this one), Japan, maybe Aztecs but surely not for the Romans, French, Germans, Americans.
So, if the game includes Romans, French or Germans, it could also include Americans and Brazilians and Australians. Why not?

[campmajor!]

Why does this subject keep coming up?

Sigh...

[Fresno]

Originally posted by campmajor!
Why does this subject keep coming up?

We don't force you to post, do we? If there are still people who want to discuss this subject, why not? You don't have to join them.

[TCO]

Letterman top ten list for why Americans are in Civ1/2/3*

10. Hutus and Tutsis too similar and all dead now.

9. Provoke the Eurocoms (healthy fun for the whole family).

8. D*ck size counts at the Firaxis casting couch!

7. USAians just doesn't have the right ring to it...besides who cares about Mexico and Canada, it's our continent.

6. Blame it on the butterfly ballet...

5. part of evil plot to Coca-colonize young Yeminis

4. DOOO-ED. Like what's with all these other civs, man. Can't tell who they are. But I got a toasty buzz on.

3. Needed replacements when the political correct police eliminated the n*ggers, spics, wops, dagos, kikes and honkies.

2. corporate sponsorship fell through. Were planning on using: Microsoftians and Toyotans, but they woiuldn't shill out.

--------------------------

And the number 1 reason for having Americans in the Civ game?



-----------------------------

1. Americans!! That was supposed to be ARMENIANS! DOH!!








*note for whiners, get a life and a clue...list is a joke.

[Th0mas]

Originally posted by GP
Letterman top ten list for why Americans are in Civ1/2/3*

10. Hutus ......... Bla bla bla
bla bla bla...............................to be ARMENIANS! DOH!!


*note for whiners, get a life and a clue...list is a joke.

....but not a very funny one though

[TCO]

They're never that funny...kinda quirky really. Whyd don't you contribute something, smartypants?

[Dauphin]

The Americans are in for political correctness.

Sorry that's Iroquois. Same continent though.

[Th0mas]

Originally posted by GP
They're never that funny...kinda quirky really. Whyd don't you contribute something, smartypants?

I think I had thread fatigue....Spent so long reading it, that by the time I was ready to say something ... I had nothing to say

Just like now

[TCO]

I know what you mean about thread fatigue.

I was going to start my own thread to put my joke in (after all that work!! ) But the thread nazis (err, I mean trusted moderators) would have clamped down on me...

[KrazyHorse]

I liked the number 10 entry, but only cuz I'm a sociopath.

[The Negotiator]

The French and English are in so why not americans? English and french do have longer history than americans but so what?

I don't remember reading what glorious English civilization did in 4000 bc.

And if I were american and were making this game OFCOURSE i would add USA in it too. But this not the main reason. I don't think that it's just political correctness. This game isn't a simulation IT's JUST A GAME and is ment to fun. So there is no real reason why america shoudn't be included in game.

[TCO]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I liked the number 10 entry, but only cuz I'm a sociopath.

I was pushing the harshness boundary on a couple of them. (BTW what is it with this sociopath thing.) Roommate kicking your ass? Break up with your sexy girlfriend?