Thread Tools
Old October 2, 2001, 14:08   #31
Waku
Civilization II MultiplayerCivilization II PBEMSpanish Civers
Emperor
 
Waku's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cádiz, Spain
Posts: 3,442
Quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
but what did they give human civilization?
Spaniards taught the world how to cross the ocean, unfortunatelly Dutch used this technology to traffic with slaves...

Last edited by Waku; October 2, 2001 at 14:15.
Waku is offline  
Old October 2, 2001, 15:30   #32
Jay Bee
staff
Spanish CiversApolytoners Hall of Fame
Moderator
 
Jay Bee's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Valladolid, CA
Posts: 11,884
Quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
Edited out. It's not worth wasting my time with this.

Last edited by Jay Bee; October 2, 2001 at 18:26.
Jay Bee is offline  
Old October 2, 2001, 15:49   #33
Oerdin
Deity
 
Oerdin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
There are far more people in Spanish speaking countries then in Arabic countries so I'd have to give the nod to the Spanards.
Oerdin is offline  
Old October 2, 2001, 15:54   #34
Oerdin
Deity
 
Oerdin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Difficult, innit?
The Iroquois 7 Zulus could be cut and I wouldn't shead a tear. They are simply historical foot notes.
Oerdin is offline  
Old October 2, 2001, 15:54   #35
Oerdin
Deity
 
Oerdin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Difficult, innit?
The Iroquois & Zulus could be cut and I wouldn't shead a tear. They are simply historical foot notes.
Oerdin is offline  
Old October 2, 2001, 15:54   #36
ixnay
Civilization II Democracy GamePtWDG Lux InvictaPtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamPtWDG2 Cake or Death?C3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of FameCivilization IV CreatorsAge of Nations Team
Emperor
 
ixnay's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 3,215
Quote:
Originally posted by Anunikoba

Also another thing to consider is the civ leaders. Who would you pick to represent the Arabs or the Spanish? The leaders for the civs that are included in the game are quite well known: Cleopatra, Ceasar (Julius, Augustus- which Ceasar is in the game btw?), Lincoln, Gandhi....
Julius.
ixnay is offline  
Old October 2, 2001, 17:25   #37
Steve Clark
King
 
Steve Clark's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,555
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Clark


Why is this even an issue? Just wait a little while and you'll probably see 100+ civs available to put into the 16 slots. Makes everything discussed here completely moot, imo.

For example, one of my very favorite Civ2 game I played included the Egyptians, Hittites, Assyrians, Minoans, Babylonians, Persians (and someone else), plus the barbarians disguised as Libyan raiders. You understand what I'm getting at?

Now in Civ3, whether these new ones include those fancy 3D leaders is irrelevant, imo. As far as civ attributes, those should not be in the regular game, only in scenarios.
It occurred to me that I don't know the answer to the degree of customization for the leaders. Do we know if we will be able to generate the 3D heads of any leader or person and place them into one of the custom civs? I still say that it is not important but most of the time, you'll be staring at the game map and interacting with your units and cities.
Steve Clark is offline  
Old October 2, 2001, 21:36   #38
Roman
King
 
Roman's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 1,292
Arabs certainly were a massive unified state stretching from present day Iran to Morrocco and Spain under the Umayyad and the Abbasid dynasties.

Their cultural achievements are remarkable. They gave us one of the world's main religions, their architecture is awe inspiring and they produced excellent literature.

Scientific developments of the Arabs have also been considerable, especially in medicine. They also preserved much of the knowledge of the Greeks and Romans, while Europe was semi-barbarous.

There are many other notable achievements of the Arabs. They should make it into an expansion pack, which I think is likely if the game sells well.
__________________
Rome rules
Roman is offline  
Old October 2, 2001, 21:37   #39
Roman
King
 
Roman's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 1,292
It seems I am now ready to be crowned a king.

Now, who will preform the corronation ceremony and which deity will sponsor me?
__________________
Rome rules
Roman is offline  
Old October 3, 2001, 16:04   #40
Tventano
Warlord
 
Tventano's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Enschede, The Netherlands
Posts: 177
Sorry Waku
Quote:
Spaniards taught the world how to cross the ocean, unfortunatelly Dutch used this technology to traffic with slaves...
Waku, I thought that the independence war of the Netherlands was finished in 1648 with the peace of Muenster and that further hostilities were not needed anymore.

The Spanish have transported much more slaves than the Dutch.
The West Indian Trading Company did more pirating Spanish ships (remember Piet Hein who conquered the silverfleet ?) than that it transported slaves.

Later the dutch supported the United States in their strugle with England which led again to a war with the english.
Tventano is offline  
Old October 3, 2001, 16:23   #41
Boris Godunov
Civilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of FameCivilization IV: Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Boris Godunov's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,412
Quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Spanish: Isabella

Arabs: Saladin
No no no!

Spanish: Charles V or Phillip II

I would make the Arab civ the Ottomans, and have Sulayman as their leader. One of history's greatest rulers!

Cheers
__________________
Tutto nel mondo è burla
Boris Godunov is offline  
Old October 3, 2001, 18:34   #42
Ribannah
Queen
 
Ribannah's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Posts: 1,578
Quote:
Originally posted by Waku
Spaniards taught the world how to cross the ocean, unfortunatelly Dutch used this technology to traffic with slaves...
Many tribes crossed the oceans long before the Spanish did, and the fact that the Spanish beat the Portuguese & others to the Americas in that particular timeframe was only due to the fact that Spain was not self-supportive and hence was in just a little more hurry to discover new routes to get rich. But it could as well have been any of their rivals, they all had the skill and the incentive.

The interesting part is what the European tribes did in the (re-)discovered lands,
because that was very different for each of them. While the Spanish initially went to plunder, the others could afford to take a longer-term view: the Dutch (later followed by Swedes and Danes), with their smaller population, concentrated more on trade with the natives, while the British favoured government (the French and Portuguese had a more even mix of politics).

The Portuguese started the slave traffic over the Atlantic Ocean (slave trade as such was already done by African tribes among themselves), but 90% of it was actually done by the British as said before in identical threads.
__________________
A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute
Ribannah is offline  
Old October 3, 2001, 19:01   #43
Waku
Civilization II MultiplayerCivilization II PBEMSpanish Civers
Emperor
 
Waku's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cádiz, Spain
Posts: 3,442
Quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
Many tribes crossed the oceans long before the Spanish did
Ribanita please read again: spaniards tought the world how to cross the ocean, do not read what it's not written.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
the Dutch (later followed by Swedes and Danes), with their smaller population, concentrated more on trade with the natives,
as a merchandise

Quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
The Portuguese started the slave traffic over the Atlantic Ocean (slave trade as such was already done by African tribes among themselves), but 90% of it was actually done by the British as said before in identical threads.
You're no rebating what I've said. Again: Dutch used this technology to traffic with slaves.
Waku is offline  
Old October 3, 2001, 19:08   #44
Waku
Civilization II MultiplayerCivilization II PBEMSpanish Civers
Emperor
 
Waku's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cádiz, Spain
Posts: 3,442
Re: Sorry Waku
Quote:
Originally posted by Tventano
The Spanish have transported much more slaves than the Dutch.
Get a book!

We were too busy pludering america.
Spaniards were of course a part of this atrocity but our role was to buy the slaves brought to America by others.
Waku is offline  
Old October 3, 2001, 19:22   #45
Jay Bee
staff
Spanish CiversApolytoners Hall of Fame
Moderator
 
Jay Bee's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Valladolid, CA
Posts: 11,884
Don't bother Waku. She's just giving (again) another proof of her vast knowledge. It's clear from her post that she does not know who Columbus was, why he did what he did, what reasons brought him to Spain, what navigation is, etc, etc, etc....
Jay Bee is offline  
Old October 3, 2001, 19:23   #46
Ribannah
Queen
 
Ribannah's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Posts: 1,578
Quote:
Originally posted by Waku
Ribanita please read again: spaniards tought the world how to cross the ocean, do not read what it's not written.
Waku Waku, how small is your world? Did you forget the Vikings, even? Not to mention the Chinese, Phoenicians, Ethiopians, did we not learn from them? Even the Polynesians were able to cross the oceans. There was nothing essential to be taught by the Spanish, all the seafaring tribes already possessed the 'skill'.
Why can you not be happy by proudly saying that the Spanish rediscovered the Americas, ahead of their rivals, instead of adding and adding to it until it turns into a blatant nothing (and making it so easy to counter)?

Quote:
You're no rebating what I've said. Again: Dutch used this technology to traffic with slaves.
So they did, it is a black page in Dutch history. But it was only a small part of Dutch trade, while it was a big part of British trade and the British and Spanish were the main buyers. So there is no reason to single out the Dutch, except that they were relatively harsh towards the slaves they transported.
__________________
A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute
Ribannah is offline  
Old October 3, 2001, 19:24   #47
orange
Civilization III Democracy GameNationStatesDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
orange's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: It doesn't matter what your name is!
Posts: 3,601
Quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
There are far more people in Spanish speaking countries then in Arabic countries so I'd have to give the nod to the Spanards.
Actually, I don't know if that's correct.

I think the Arab countries have it by 50 million or so.

I did a quick count of all Arab speaking countries (where it was dominant...so not including Pakistan and Afghanistan) and Spanish speaking countries (not including Brazil...Portugese) and I came up with 375,000,000 Arab to 310,000,000 Spanish.
__________________
"Chegitz, still angry about the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991?
You provide no source. You PROVIDE NOTHING! And yet you want to destroy capitalism.. you criminal..." - Fez

"I was hoping for a Communist utopia that would last forever." - Imran Siddiqui
orange is offline  
Old October 3, 2001, 20:31   #48
Ribannah
Queen
 
Ribannah's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Posts: 1,578
Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Bee
Don't bother Waku. She's just giving (again) another proof of her vast knowledge. It's clear from her post that she does not know who Columbus was, why he did what he did, what reasons brought him to Spain, what navigation is, etc, etc, etc....
Columbus didn't even use up-to-date celestial navigation as developed by the Portuguese, who were the innovative seafarers of the time/region.
__________________
A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute
Ribannah is offline  
Old October 4, 2001, 01:35   #49
Urban Ranger
NationStatesApolyton Storywriters' GuildNever Ending Stories
Deity
 
Urban Ranger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
Waku, Jay Bee:

Heard of Chang Ho?

He was this Chinese person who led a fleet of massive ships to travel all the way to the East coast of Africa, years before Columbus.

Now lets get back on the topic.
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
Urban Ranger is offline  
Old October 4, 2001, 02:27   #50
Jay Bee
staff
Spanish CiversApolytoners Hall of Fame
Moderator
 
Jay Bee's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Valladolid, CA
Posts: 11,884
UR, what has that to do with anything? I see your point but I think you also see mine.
Jay Bee is offline  
Old October 4, 2001, 03:20   #51
orange
Civilization III Democracy GameNationStatesDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
orange's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: It doesn't matter what your name is!
Posts: 3,601
It was quite a feat at the time, but remember UR...he didn't cross oceans, he followed coastline

Quit being so pro PRC
__________________
"Chegitz, still angry about the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991?
You provide no source. You PROVIDE NOTHING! And yet you want to destroy capitalism.. you criminal..." - Fez

"I was hoping for a Communist utopia that would last forever." - Imran Siddiqui
orange is offline  
Old October 4, 2001, 03:44   #52
Ribannah
Queen
 
Ribannah's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Posts: 1,578
Quote:
Originally posted by orange
It was quite a feat at the time, but remember UR...he didn't cross oceans, he followed coastline
Quote:
{edit: link starts here}{The first Treasure Fleet} (of Cheng Ho in 1405-1407 - Rib) consisted of 62 ships; four were huge wood boats, some of the largest ever built in history. They were approximately 400 feet (122 meters) long and 160 feet (50 meters) wide. The four were the flagships of the fleet of 62 ships assembled at Nanjing along the Yangtze (Chang) River. Included in the fleet were 339-foot (103-meter) long horse ships that carried nothing but horses, water ships that carried fresh water for the crew, troop transports, supply ships, and war ships for offensive and defensive needs. The ships were filled with thousands of tons of Chinese goods to trade with others during the voyage. In the fall of 1405 the fleet was ready to embark with 27,800 men.
Now, that is what I call an exploration

Quote:
The fleet utilized the compass, invented in China in the 11th century, for navigation. Graduated sticks of incense were burned to measure time. One day was equal to 10 "watches" of 2.4 hours each. Chinese navigators determine latitude through monitoring the North Star (Polaris) in the Northern Hemisphere or the Southern Cross in the Southern Hemisphere. The ships of the Treasure Fleet communicated with one another through the use of flags, lanterns, bells, carrier pigeons, gongs, and banners.
Quote:
The destination of the first voyage of the Treasure Fleet was Calicut, known as a major trading center on the southwestern coast of India. India was initially "discovered" by Chinese overland explorer Hsuan-Tsang in the seventh century. The fleet stopped in Vietnam, and Malacca, and then headed west ACROSS THE INDIAN OCEAN (my caps - Rib) to Sri Lanka and Calicut and Cochin (cities on the southwest coast of India).
Quote:
... It's likely that a detachment of one of Cheng Ho's fleets sailed to northern Australia during one of the seven voyages based upon the Chinese artifacts found as well as the oral history of the Aborigine.
__________________
A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute

Last edited by Ribannah; October 4, 2001 at 11:33.
Ribannah is offline  
Old October 4, 2001, 10:06   #53
Fiil
Warlord
 
Fiil's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of the cold north
Posts: 162
"In the fall of 1405 the fleet was ready to embark with 27,800 men."

Hey that's enough to fit in the whole Iroqouis nation at its peak - maybe we should build one!
But don't you worry Ribannah there will be room for you too!
Fiil is offline  
Old October 4, 2001, 10:28   #54
orange
Civilization III Democracy GameNationStatesDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
orange's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: It doesn't matter what your name is!
Posts: 3,601
Rib - island hopping is not sailing across an ocean. The Atlantic Ocean is more than 3000 miles wide where the first Euro explorers crossed (Spain to the Carribbean)

India to Somalia is substantially less. I'm fairly sure I've seen maps of the journey, which hugged coastline for the majority of it.
__________________
"Chegitz, still angry about the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991?
You provide no source. You PROVIDE NOTHING! And yet you want to destroy capitalism.. you criminal..." - Fez

"I was hoping for a Communist utopia that would last forever." - Imran Siddiqui
orange is offline  
Old October 4, 2001, 11:04   #55
Ribannah
Queen
 
Ribannah's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Posts: 1,578
Quote:
Originally posted by orange
Rib - island hopping is not sailing across an ocean.
If you have proof that my source is wrong, show me and I'll stand corrected.

Quote:
The Atlantic Ocean is more than 3000 miles wide where the first Euro explorers crossed (Spain to the Carribbean)
That may be so, but I think they had the Azores as an intermediate point.
Also note that at the time Columbus expected the journey to be much shorter, and they were very lucky to make it. It was a formidable feat.
__________________
A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute
Ribannah is offline  
Old October 4, 2001, 11:07   #56
Boris Godunov
Civilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of FameCivilization IV: Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Boris Godunov's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,412
Quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah

If you have proof that my source is wrong, show me and I'll stand corrected.
How can he do this when you didn't cite the source? Same is true for your Iroquous info. Please cite. If it's taken from a Web source, provide a link. Don't be ashamed of your sources.
__________________
Tutto nel mondo è burla
Boris Godunov is offline  
Old October 4, 2001, 11:20   #57
Ribannah
Queen
 
Ribannah's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Posts: 1,578
Boris, my style setting clearly shows the links I provided in blue! Can't you see them? ("The first Treasure Fleet" in my post above).
__________________
A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute
Ribannah is offline  
Old October 4, 2001, 11:23   #58
Boris Godunov
Civilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of FameCivilization IV: Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Boris Godunov's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,412
Quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
Boris, my style setting clearly shows the links I provided in blue! Can't you see them? ("The first Treasure Fleet" in my post above).
No, I can't, as THE ENTIRE QUOTE IS BLUE. There is no distinction on my screen between the link and the rest of the quote. But thank you for clarifying.
__________________
Tutto nel mondo è burla
Boris Godunov is offline  
Old October 4, 2001, 11:29   #59
Ribannah
Queen
 
Ribannah's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Posts: 1,578
Quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
No, I can't, as THE ENTIRE QUOTE IS BLUE. There is no distinction on my screen between the link and the rest of the quote. But thank you for clarifying.
Yikes. I have the normal text of the quote in amber (and a black background).
I'll try to make my links in past posts more visible.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention!
__________________
A horse! A horse! Mingapulco for a horse! Someone must give chase to Brave Sir Robin and get those missing flags ...
Project Lead of Might and Magic Tribute
Ribannah is offline  
Old October 4, 2001, 12:57   #60
orange
Civilization III Democracy GameNationStatesDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
orange's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:01
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: It doesn't matter what your name is!
Posts: 3,601
scroll to the map. It was the second hit on google

http://www.chinapage.com/chengho.html
__________________
"Chegitz, still angry about the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991?
You provide no source. You PROVIDE NOTHING! And yet you want to destroy capitalism.. you criminal..." - Fez

"I was hoping for a Communist utopia that would last forever." - Imran Siddiqui
orange is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:01.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team