The Reason why the Iroquois are in Civ 3

[static]

With all the bickering over the Iroquois inclusion, I felt compelled to back Firaxis on their decision and give reasons why. I warn you though, this post is somewhat long.

The Iroquois are famous in history as the most powerful and influential Native Americans in eastern north America. Their Confederacy of six nations, the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca, and Tuscarora, played a vital role in the development of North America, both before and after the arrival of European settlers.

Iroquois are among the Native American descendants of the first people of this land. They call themselves the Haudenosaunee - "People who live in the extended longhouse". The name "Iroquois" was given to them by their neighbors (Algonkian speaking people) and then used by Europeans.

The Five nations -- Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, & Seneca became the Six Nations when the Tuscarora joined in 1712. Members of other Native nations were conquered, were adopted in the 1600 and 1700s, or fled to Iroquois communities to escape from the encroachments of the new white settlers.

The Iroquis Influence...,

"The American system is markedly different from that of Britain, the country from which it separated. It encompasses ideas not used before in any successful nation. These definitive qualities did not just appear, however; they were a direct result of contact with the indigenous Americans. Such revered statesmen as Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson experienced the lifestyles and beliefs of the natives, specifically the Six Nations of the Iroquois, and incorporated them into the government that they created." - http://web.syr.edu/~bmoriari/review1.html

"Early Euro-Americans voluntarily adopted methods, lifestyles, artifacts, and ideas from the indigenous people, often in order to survive. Indians in America provided half of the modern world's domesticated food crops, numerous herbal medicines, clothing, transportation pathways and modes, crafts and artifacts, hygiene methods, and thousands of words including place names and ideas of governance that blended ideals of rugged individuality with concern for the common welfare.
The Iroquois republic had continuously existed since the 14th or 15th century. In 1930, Arthur Pound's Johnson of the Mohawks states, "With the possible exception of the also unwritten British Constitution, deriving from the Magna Charta, the Iroquois Constitution is the longest-going international constitution in the world." Known as "The Great Law of Peace," this orally transmitted constitution describes a federal union of five (later six) Indian nations: Mohawk, Onondagam Seneca, Oneida, Cayuga and the Tuscarora, adopted in 1715. It was only put in writing in 1915 by Arthur C. Parker, archeologist for the State Museum of New York." - http://www.sojourn.org/winter98/html/iroquois.html

More interesting links to bore you...

http://www.britannica.com/magazine/a...ager.offset=40
http://mbhs.bergtraum.k12.ny.us/cybe...F/FFintro.html

[Sarxis]

Very informative

[Ribannah]

The Iroquois did have their own (hieroglyphe) script and they used it to write their own constitution and many other important documents such as treaties.
Taking into account that the Iroquois as a people (divided over several tribes but with the same culture and language) existed before the nation was formed,
Toronto (the Seneca village of Taiagon) would be an excellent choice as their capital site in civ3.
And did you know they had saunas in their houses?

[Fiil]

Originally posted by Ribannah
The Iroquois did have their own (hieroglyphe) script and they used it to write their own constitution and many other important documents such as treaties.

Waw, this is new to me, I once asked you but you never answered. If the Iroquois had their own script then they qualify as a civilization for sure!

Could you perhaps show me a picture or give me a link to these hieroglyphes? They must have been developed independantly of all other scripts and therefore I'm eager to see what they looked like.

Other native tribes in NA didn't have a script, or am I wrong?

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Fiil
Waw, this is new to me, I once asked you but you never answered. If the Iroquois had their own script then they qualify as a civilization for sure!
Could you perhaps show me a picture or give me a link to these hieroglyphes? They must have been developed independantly of all other scripts and therefore I'm eager to see what they looked like.

Here is a replica of the famous Wolf Belt:



Some more info can be found here. There are literally hundreds of websites about the Iroquois, so maybe there is even better information available.

Other native tribes in NA didn't have a script, or am I wrong?

The Algonquin, who are related to the Iroquois, had a similar script, maybe there were more.

[civcop]

The Iroquois lived in longhouses, which were rectangular structures made of tree bark, tree limbs and (I think) some mud to help hold it all together. I toured a reproduced Indian village near where I live and a recreated longhouse was set up there. From the information presented, more than one family lived in a longhouse and something like cots lined the side walls for sleeping. Each longhouse had a fireplace in the middle and a doorway at each end. The problem with the longhouses was that they did not have a opening in the roof to allow for the fire's smoke to vacate the longhouse. The information given at that recreated one stated that many Iroquois tended to develop problems with their eyes due to living in a smoke-filled house. Just thought I'd throw that in. Logan's lament was also posted on a spot at this recreated village. It could very easily be adopted by cynics who believe Civ 3 will be a stinker.

[Fiil]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Here is a replica of the famous Wolf Belt

Hmm I'm a bit disappointed if these two men/women and the two wolves(?) are the hieroglyphs.
These are pictures imo, maybe they have a symbolic meaning and maybe their primal intension is not to resemble nature but to tell a story. But this probably implies for the Spanish cave paintings too.

I hope there are other hieroglyphs used in a context!

[DarkCloud]

...Bring up an old thread and you'll see why I say that the AMERICANS MAY HAVE ONLY MARGINALLY BEEN INSPIRED BY THE IROQUOIS- THE IROQUIOS HAVE LESS REASON TO BE IN THE GAME THAN THE Mississippians, the Olmec, the Maya, or the Aztec.

[Ribannah]

Hi DC, you make it sound like they forced their way in somehow
(Btw the Aztecs ARE in the game, in case you forgot.)

[static]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
...Bring up an old thread and you'll see why I say that the AMERICANS MAY HAVE ONLY MARGINALLY BEEN INSPIRED BY THE IROQUOIS- THE IROQUIOS HAVE LESS REASON TO BE IN THE GAME THAN THE Mississippians, the Olmec, the Maya, or the Aztec.

The only one of the Civs that should be ahead of the Iroquois are the Maya. The Aztecs like the Zulus, were probably put in to create interesting adversaries for the player(it is a game after all). The Olmec were earlier Native Americans and never approached the level of the Iroquois, and the Mississippians , I think the Texans(who were a real Civ), would be much higher on the list than them.

[DarkCloud]

Yes, I know the Aztecs are in the game.

Does no one know about the Mississipians- the Snake Mound builders? They were highly advanced, at least advanced as the Anasazi and possibly as advanced as the olmec or Maya.

Olmecs were in South America.

Ribbanah- they did- they are insidious.

The Aztec had a high society. And, as well as that, They conquered vast stretches of lands.

[red_jon]

OK, let's think about this in Civ terms...

Reasons why (in civ) the Native Americans count as barbarians

(BTW, I'm not saying they were in real life, just in civ terms).


1- They never built cities (they could be represented by a settler wandering round in circles) - they were nomadic.

2- They certainly didn't build city improvements.

3- They only produced 1 type of military unit (civ2 barbarians anyone?)

4- (as if the above weren't reasons enough) They had no united leader of significant unified government.

[static]

Originally posted by red_jon
OK, let's think about this in Civ terms...

Reasons why (in civ) the Native Americans count as barbarians

(BTW, I'm not saying they were in real life, just in civ terms).


1- They never built cities (they could be represented by a settler wandering round in circles) - they were nomadic.

2- They certainly didn't build city improvements.

3- They only produced 1 type of military unit (civ2 barbarians anyone?)

4- (as if the above weren't reasons enough) They had no united leader of significant unified government.

You make some good points on 1 and 2 , however I'm not sure if your right on 3 and 4, interesting arguement though.

[Christantine The Great]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
The Aztec had a high society. And, as well as that, They conquered vast stretches of lands.

The Aztecs, as AoK puts it, were at a cultural dead end. They were simply more advanced barbarians who barely held on to that empire (I bet that...800 men could topple it). Of course there needs to be more civs in America and the Incas couldn't fit on the CivII map.

[Akron]

So what if the Incas can't fit on a civ map. They were a reasonably advanced civilization, and I really hope they are in the X-pack. They had a road system, good agriculture, and various settlements. Sounds like a civ to me. In addition, they even worshipped potato gods! Now how cool would that be?!?

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by red_jon
OK, let's think about this in Civ terms...
Reasons why (in civ) the Native Americans count as barbarians
(BTW, I'm not saying they were in real life, just in civ terms).
1- They never built cities (they could be represented by a settler wandering round in circles) - they were nomadic.

I take it you're talking about North-Amerind tribes
The Iroquois and many other tribes built permanent villages of longhouses.
Further to the south, there were the pueblo towns.

2- They certainly didn't build city improvements

The Iroquois had community buildings, granaries and village walls, followed by churches and other city improvements after European influence. They also had saunas, which compensates for the Finnish being left out .
The Hopi had a.o.t. temples and terraces.

3- They only produced 1 type of military unit

Braves, scouts, archers, canoes, musketeers, riflemen, guerillas ...

4- They had no united leader of significant unified government.

Most nations had a high chief, sometimes an additional war chief.
All nations as well as the confederacies had high councils.
Many of them still have.

[Fiil]

Hey Ribannah, which civ2-techs would you say the iroquois had in real life?

[Ironwood]

Originally posted by Christantine The Great


The Aztecs, as AoK puts it, were at a cultural dead end. They were simply more advanced barbarians who barely held on to that empire (I bet that...800 men could topple it).

I bet that, oh, 800 men *did* topple it.

At any rate, I am beginning to be more inclined to see them as worthy of being a civ. The Aztecs had little more than a tributary empire (you'd need an entire game of Civ to simulate that); the Iroqois had a genuine confederation.

Oh, and for those that have given up on that other Iroqois thread, regarding scripts:

Has anyone else ever heard of the Cherokee script? I read, a long time ago, a story about a Cherokee who developed a genuinely *phonetic* script, specially tailored for the Cherokee language. I don't know if it's true, of if so, if it ever had any real application, but it's cool, nonetheless.

Ah, the Cherokee; now there's a real civilization. Permanent villages, agriculture, independent dealings with other powers; were it not for the fact that the Iroqois were more influential in the long run, I'd say the Cherokee are a better bet for a genuine civ.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Ironwood


I bet that, oh, 800 men *did* topple it.

I bet that they had help from, oh, a certain lethal virus.

[orange]

Guy

[Dr. Nick]

Ribannah, if the Iroquois were so advanced, how come the Incas were not included?

The Incas had a much more technologically advanced Empire with a better organised central government. They literally carved themselves an empire out of the stone of the Andes. They had cultivation terraces, temples, observatories, their architecture was perfect and they had seismic proof cities.

And yet, they are not included. Sounds like there is never a good outline on why one civ is included and why one is not.

[Wernazuma III]

Some points made in this thread need clarification.

At first there was mentioned the point that Olmecs and the Mississippi-culture would qualify better than the Iroquois.
Although I oppose the Iroquois inclusion, I don't think this holds. From the Olmecs we know mainly their giant stone heads and the remains of some settlements. Their pictographic writing was definitely not superior to those from the Iroquois presented in this thread. Their importance merely lies in the age of the Olmec culture, significantly BC, as the creddle of mesoamerican culture. With town names we would face the same difficulties as with the Iroquois: 75% have spanish names, the other 25% native names, but from a much later period (toltec, aztec etc.)
The Mississippi culture had maybe higher achievements than the Iroquois (can't really judge), but they definitely lack to have a name, I mean a tribe or nation, we have in mind when thinking about them. and again: no city names.

as for the aztecs and mayans it's different.
Someone mentioned the aztecs were not very different from "barbarians" and to be a "dead end society". The first was only true until the 14th century, when the aztecs arrived to the high valley of Anahuac. Then they soon adapted the great achievements of the zapotecs, toltecs et. al. Their capital Mexico-Tenochtitlan had, according to the lowest (!!!) estimates 150000 inhabitants, some even say it was the world's biggest city around 1500. One doesn't have to be a specialist to see that this makes them stand highly civilized. They had a very differentiated social hierarchy, totally untypical to tribal organization, they had a huge administration, built massive structures etc. etc.
And for the "dead end society". This idea refers to the fact that when the spanish arrived, most conquered peoples flocked to the spanish because they were treated badly by the aztecs. The "800" spanyards (which actually had been over 2000 when they finally managed to overcome the aztecs) were supported by several 10000s or even more than 100000 natives. Without their support, the conquest would have failed completely. Read a book from someone who was among the conquerors: Bernal Diaz, The conquest of Mexico, and you'll see what I mean.
Yes, the aztec empire was a tributary empire and thus fragile. It might have fallen even if the spanish would not have arrived, but that would not have meant the end of their culture. Aztec culture was highly influenced by predecessors like Toltecs or Zapotecs and they added their "spice" to the culture. The next power would have built on a substrate of a toltec/zapotec/aztec substrate.

Lamentably it's 8 in the morning and I have to go to bed, so I can't write about the mayans now. Good night to ya all, Tlazocamati, Wernazuma Nahuixtelotzin

[El hidalgo]

Originally posted by Ironwood

Oh, and for those that have given up on that other Iroqois thread, regarding scripts:

Has anyone else ever heard of the Cherokee script? I read, a long time ago, a story about a Cherokee who developed a genuinely *phonetic* script, specially tailored for the Cherokee language. I don't know if it's true, of if so, if it ever had any real application, but it's cool, nonetheless.

Yes, you're thinking of Sequoia. You can read about his story (and his crazy wife ) here: http://www.friesian.com/ross/calif.htm#sequoia

[Imran Siddiqui]

I bet that they had help from, oh, a certain lethal virus.

And thousands of Indians that hated the Aztecs .

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by El Awrence
Ribannah, if the Iroquois were so advanced, how come the Incas were not included?

Ehhm, because they weren't Iroquois? (While the Cherokee, on the other hand, could be considered as part of the 'greater Iroquois tribe', as they are closely related to the six nations.)

The main reason Firaxis hasn't even considered the Incas is that because a certain someone got his wish and we aren't allowed to build cities on mountains in civ3!!

Originally posted by Fiil
Hey Ribannah, which civ2-techs would you say the iroquois had in real life?

That is an excellent question Fiil , I have been waiting for someone to ask this for ages! Note, however, that the tech tree is of course a product of the Americans, the Iroquois would make a different tree!! Before contact with the Europeans, I think they had the following:

Pottery, Alphabet, Warrior Code, Bronze Working, Masonry, Ceremonial Burial, Map Making, Writing, Code of Laws, Mathematics, Feudalism, Construction, Mysticism, Polytheism, Monarchy, Chivalry, Engineering, Trade, Astronomy, Philosophy, Navigation, The Republic, Chemistry, Leadership, Medicine, Monotheism, Tactics, Democracy, Theology, Communism, Guerilla Warfare, Environmentalism

Not all of these to the same extent as other tribes, as well as without some accompaning units, because certain links were missing. Some of what are modern techs to us, are in its basic form ancient to the Iroquois.

Typically lacking:
Horseback Riding, Masonry(?), The Wheel, Iron Working, Currency, Seafaring, Literacy, University, Bridge Building, Gunpowder

for which they had: The Sled, Woodcraft, Copper & Silver Working.

The Iroquois Golden Age, however, did not start until contact with the Europeans was made, and they quickly started filling the gaps, while the Europeans picked up much of where the Iroquois were ahead.

Edit: Dropped Invention, Masonry and Metallurgy (only the related Shawnee had some knowledge in this field); note that (simple) wampums were used as Currency after European contact.

[Dr. Nick]

Ribannah, that reply was pathetic. I won't even bother answering it.

[Ironwood]

Originally posted by Ribannah

That is an excellent question Fiil , I have been waiting for someone to ask this for ages! Note, however, that the tech tree is of course a product of the Americans, the Iroquois would make a different tree!! Before contact with the Europeans, I think they had the following:

Pottery, Alphabet, Warrior Code, Bronze Working,

I follow you up until

Originally posted by Ribannah
Masonry,

Can you give an example? Masonry, I associate with big monoliths, walls (*stone* walls), stone buildings, etc.

Because I don't feel like playing with tags, how about Writing? I do believe they did have potentially Alphabet, but Writing? That piece of Wampum, unless you're prepared to explain how their written language *worked*, I have difficulty believing it. Ditto for Code of Laws, since this implies law is written, not simply memorized (and therfore in the hands of the memorizers).

Construction? Construction isn't simply the building of buildings (log houses don't count), but the building of *large* buildings, such as, oh, say, the Colloseaum? The Arch, at least, would be something needed to say one has "construction."

And Chivalry? This, I see, as an advanced form of Warrior Code (which the Iroqois most assuredly had), dependent on a horse (and therfore land) based aristocracy. The Iroqois did not have this. People say Chivalry is dead. This is so; it died with the advent of the modern army.

ENGINEERING?! Dear Ribannah, what exactly do you think Engineering is? In giving them this, you suggest they had considerable structural and mechanical capabilities. Give an example of Iroqois "engineering."

Navigation. This is more than simply utilizing landmarks; this is the ability to naviagate using nothing more than the stars... which enables people to travel out to sea farther than one can see the land. This suggests they knew the world was round, they knew how to determine their lattitude (at least) using the stars an an astrolobe, etc. I would be *very* surprised if they had this.

Chemistry is more than herbal remedies; it implies knowledge of the basic mechanisms of chemical reactions. It suggests the principles that underlie the periodic table. It's not only being able to mix stuff and see the reaction, and then use it, but also being able to *predict* (or at least make the attempt) what may happen when you mix two substances.

Leadership is, if I'm reading it correctly, basically an excuse to have knights come before dragoons... or is that cavalry? It's been a while. It basically exists to ensure a proper flow of military units, and lengthen the development cycle, so far as I can tell. Somebody else can strike this down, probably.

I won't even go into invention.

Tactics. Same as leadership. Another way to get better horsies.

Theology? I think this is basically a way of making religeon (happy buildings) more advanced, but at the very least, it suggests an extensive educated class that considers matters of religeon, melding them with the current secular beliefs. This hooks directly into my arguments regarding writing. In a hunter-gatherer society (for, whatever else they may have accomplished, they were still reliant on this for their welfare... unlike certain tribes to the south), who has time to be a "Theologian?" An oral tradition does not a theology make. By that logic, you could say Theology, in the West, originated with the Druids. (And yes, they had a prereq: philosophy... but not Theology.)

And if they can't even work iron, how can you call them metallurgists?

[Ribannah]

You seem to have overlooked the line right below my list. Instead, many of your definitions go the opposite way and would need the word 'advanced' added to the name of the tech. That the Iroquois certainly did not have in some of the 'technical techs' until after contact with the Europeans. But, as an example, today Mohawk construction workers are most celebrated as they have no fear of heights. I'll get back to you in more detail later.

[Fiera]

Originally posted by Ribannah
You seem to have overlooked the line right below my list. Instead, many of your definitions go the opposite way and would need the word 'advanced' added to the name of the tech. That the Iroquois certainly did not have in some of the 'technical techs' until after contact with the Europeans.

Most of this technical knowledge that you're adressing as 'advanced' was already old news to the Babylonians, Persians or Greeks 2000 years before the Iroquese "had contact with the Europeans".

[Ribannah]

You mean like the compass, the periodic table and gunpowder?
Wow! Put them in the game! Er ...

LOVE HIAWATHA!! LOVE HIAWATHA!!