How long do we intend to complain about this game?

[isaac brock]

I've truly been alarmed at how much of this forum is just nitpicking at completely unimportant things. When will this forum turn positive? Will we keep complaining like spoiled princesses once the game is released? I like this forum for its ability to quickly spread information among people anxious for the game. But as soon as anything is learned (or more often, assumed) people suddenly start complaining that its not fair for france to be pink. Or maybe you all think complaining is all that a forum can possibly offer. I'm all for argument, but I'm not too big on the whining that is not only constant, but getting worse. Well, whatever you like.

[Uncle Thade]

I rather that some people just like to hear the sound of their own whine...

[Ralf]

Theres nothing wrong with constructive criticism, as long as one look at things "glass half-full", instead of "glass half empty" (well, perhaps the latter variant is often the problem). However at this late stage, the only thing they possibly could change/add is minor bug-patch type of feature-tweaks. Complaining about large game-mechanical features, like lack of SE, unit-workshop, or the current battle-model or whatever, is obviously a waste of time.

But minor bug-patch type of tweaks and suggestion is another thing (perhaps even that is too late). That goes also after the release. If we only give them bug-feedback and not feature-tweak feedback as well - we end up with getting pure bug-fix patches only. Finally, once the game is released we can start all again with suggesting feature-additions for that expected expansion-pack.

[Akron]

Just accept it; people will always find something to whine about. When people start whining about France being pink, you know that most of the other features must satisfy them.

[SerapisIV]

I haven't complained about anything in Civ3 yet with the exception of the politically correct Iroquois versus the the Incas as a Civ. Beyond that I've been very pleased with most of the info thats been released.

[squid]

Why didn't they include my own empire! My whole house has seceeded from the union and I have instated my self as emporor of all the land I survey (about 1/4 acre).

WHY CAN'T FIRAXIS INCLUDE MY KINGDOM!!!1!!11
LUSERZ!!!!11

And how come you can't see the fast food joints on the highway's? Where are my roman legions going to buy hamburgers? Hmm? Hmm?

I thought so. Clearly this is going to be the worst game ever!!11

(I'm laughing at these people too...I can tell Firaxis has already taken away 95% of my social skills for the next five years.)

[JellyDonut]

They'll shut up once Civ III comes out and they realize that being 100% historically accurate doesn't make that big a difference and that putting fun over realism makes the game a helluvalot funner (yes I said "funner"; mind your own comparative adjectives ).

[Akron]

So maybe they'll shut up for a week, but then they'll slowly start complaining again about bugs or how its too easy or too hard or France's pinkness or something else. Then they'll start predicting that the X-pack will suck, and it will go on and on and on. This is how it works on all game forums.

[GodSpawn]

Akron: You ain't wrong

[Crouchback]

I'll stop whining as soon as I see the startup screen on my screen for the first time, so long as it makes a perfect cup of tea and fetches me biscuits every hour on the hour.

David

[SITS]

How about stop whining about people whining? If you want to create positive threads then create positive thread. Although reading some of the posts by dear Isaac his complaint is about people wanting MP as he isn't interested in that,

[Immortal Wombat]

'til they add a scripting language.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Akron
So maybe they'll shut up for a week, but then they'll slowly start complaining again about bugs or how its too easy or too hard or France's pinkness or something else. Then they'll start predicting that the X-pack will suck, and it will go on and on and on. This is how it works on all game forums.

For those in the U.S., go see Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. Perfect satire of how internet forums seem to draw people who aren't happy unless they're complaining and ranting about every little thing.

The movie is fairly amusing, except it is essentially a 90-minute gay joke, which gets tiresome after a while...

[FuFu15]

WHAT THE **** FRANCE IS PINK?!!?

[Akron]

Yes, France's overwhelming pinkness will invariably have severe consequences to gameplay....

C'mon people, it's not the end of the world. If it is not arbitrary, you can probably change it in the editor.

[FuFu15]

Well at least france's got a reason to just throw thier hands up and run when they get invaded.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by FuFu15
Well at least france's got a reason to just throw thier hands up and run when they get invaded.

And what reason is that?

[Shadowstrike]

I only post constructive criticism to problems that would be rather difficult to correct. Stuff like the Iroqois/Inca thing can by correct once you have the game, so why bother complaining about it?

Somehow I get the feeling that Firaxis is working 24/7 right now, and won't read these complaints anyhow. Oh well, as long as they're working, and making a superior product worth our dollars/euros/pounds/rubles/unit of currency/girant rocks/cows.

[korn469]

the only thing worse than people complaining about civ3, is the people complaining about the people complaining about civ3

but first one must make a distinction between people who whine for the fun of it and people who are trying to actually give constructive critisism

here is a nice little quote by Bruce Shelly, you know that guy who worked on Civ1, Age of Empires, and AoK

The Player Should Have the Fun, Not the Designer, Programmer, or Computer

Although this principle seems obvious, many games fail because the wrong entity is having most of the fun. It is often the designer who allows feature creep to overrun the product or a designer performs a brilliant analysis and installs an amazing single path to victory that no one else could find. The producer can direct great graphics and cinematics to suck up the budget, making all the artists happy, but leaving little time for inserting actual gameplay. If a player finds himself waiting all the time while the computer grinds through some brilliant calculations, maybe the computer is having more fun than the player is.

Game development should focus on creating entertainment for players by engaging their minds. Everything the team does in development, and what the machine does in operation, is directed toward that goal. All code, game features, art pieces, sound effects, music scores, and computer operations should enhance entertainment. An exception to this rule may be elements included for marketing considerations, such as opening cinematics. There are two additional points to keep in mind when designing a successful game. First, the player should be the hero or heroine. Second, in single play, the player should sweat a little, but always win in the end.

the easiest way for the designers to know what a player wants is for the players to tell them, so there is nothing wrong with giving feedback,

plus there is always room for improvement!
all of those who own a copy of civ2 or SMAC or plan on buying a copy of civ3 agree with this principle in deed if not in words

the easiest way for the designers to know what a player wants is for the players to tell them, so there is nothing wrong with giving feedback,

plus there is always room for improvement!

Exactly.

'til they add a scripting language.

Yes. Further, once a scripting language is available - one may tell complainers to quit b*tching and start modding.

I only post constructive criticism to problems that would be rather difficult to correct. Stuff like the Iroqois/Inca thing can by correct once you have the game, so why bother complaining about it?

Yeah, right? If dumb little things are easily corrected, just let the purchaser do so. I think that was Activision's plan releasing CTP2. I thought you guys disliked the CTP series because it was not all that great out of the box. Oh, but if Sid puts cheese-d*ck Hanna-Barbarra circa 1970 animated leaders in an otherwise beautiful game. That's ok because its Sid right?! What is Sid your buddy? Do you have a personal stake in Firaxis? If not, you shouldn't put up with Firaxis pulling an Activision.

And I might point out I don't need the full game to criticize the art.

[JellyDonut]

Originally posted by FuFu15
WHAT THE **** FRANCE IS PINK?!!?

Are you dissing the almighty French knight?

If you are, you've got the wrong thread and the wrong forum....

[d_dudy]

Originally posted by FuFu15
WHAT THE **** FRANCE IS PINK?!!?

well of course they are!

[Shadowstrike]

Buddy, if it means Firaxis wasting an hour fixing the fact that people hate the color pink (and that we, the fans can correct it later), or Firaxis putting that hour to good use hunting for bugs, sleeping so they can do more work, or posting on Apolyton, I will choose the later ten times out of ten. Save the small stuff for patches, and get in more important features.

[Christantine The Great]

I don't think you can measure infinity, isaac.

[FuFu15]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


And what reason is that?

they're pink

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by FuFu15


they're pink

You win the "Circular Reasoning Award."

Why would their being pink induce them to run away? I thought yellow was the color of cowardice...

[squid]

Originally posted by JellyDonut


Are you dissing the almighty French knight?

If you are, you've got the wrong thread and the wrong forum....

Silly English kniggots!

[JellyDonut]

Originally posted by FuFu15
they're pink

And I suppose all the Iroquois are gay because they're purple .

I'd give you some links as to why men should like the color pink, but there are children roaming these forums

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by JellyDonut


And I suppose all the Iroquois are gay because they're purple .

I thought it was because they walked around in outfits that showed off their pecs and kept their places so neat!

[MonsterMan]

This is in response to JellyDonut's post.

For me, and alot of other people I would guess, the fun of games is often derived from realism. My two favourite games are Frontier: Elite II, and Civ (no version specified, CtP2 was great but I'm holding my breath for Civ3). What do they have in common? For me, they inspire me to use my imagination when I play them.

When I go to bed, I want to fantisize about what I've just experienced. Plus of course, hallucinating about terrain tiles and having what seems like hour-long dreams... just moving units in an imaginary game of civilization... come on, you hardcore civvers know what I'm talking 'bout :-)

(In a dusty, pompous, old-man medieval voice)

And so, the brave legions of Sire Patrik arrived at the last town standing after a fallen empire, and ... made camp for sixty years, biding the time when the city would regrow to size two, at which point they invaded. Sire Patrik disbanded the city and got a portable settler unit which built a city on his empire's outskirts.

...

Aye, the crowd cheers as the brave stone-age sailors set sail for the horizon, going forth ... on a 2,000 year mission to sail around the planet and map the coastlines of several continents.

(end voice)

I don't think there is a conflict between realism and fun, either. Taking my first example, what would be the downside of not using my strategy, but instead have a size-one city that is conquered automatically generate a settler unit?

The second example may be harder to solve. Why not have triremes lose health when they journey too far from your empire? This would illustrate the difficulties of (minor) support ships to resupply the trireme unit with fresh sailors. Of course, since more advanced ship types sail faster, the max distance will increase up until the modern-day Transport which doesn't have any restrictions. At any rate, I think my suggestion would enhance the game, and give the player an added sense that the ancient world is smaller than we now know it to be.

Regards,
Patrik