Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Mongols and Spanish

[Locutus]

Okay, the EPC thread is back on track, time to work out the details of the most important civs. This has been done before by others but IMHO not in a way that is useful to send to Firaxis as a clarification on why exactly the civs that we picked are so important. This thread is intended mainly to determine what kind of information should be collected and how it should be organized.

As examples to guide us in determining this and to show how I personally think this should roughly look like, I made examples for the Mongols and Spanish (see below), the two most popular civs in the poll. I modeled these examles after the 'Civ of the Week' feature on Civ3.com but I expanded a bit upon the concept. The setup I propose contains some 'technical' info on each civ, such as name, possible unique units and leaders, abilities, etc, and a very short (one or two sentences) mention of it's historical significance. This is followed by a somewhat more elaborate description (roughly 1000 words) of its history and achievements. I had hoped to put in the same amount of humor in the this as Firaxis puts in their CotW descriptions but either the civs I wrote about aren't particularly funny or I'm not... To finish things up, I also added a list of (50) suggestions for city names, roughly in the order in which they should also appear in the game (one might say this is not a very important issue but I'm still baffled by the incredible low quality of some city lists in Civ1/2 and CtP1/2). Of course, this setup is just a proposal and very much open for suggestions.

As far as contents of the two examples goes, this too is open for suggestions and improvements. Both examples can no doubt be improved upon, but personally I think the Mongol one is of fairly high quality (I've always been a greatly admired them and know far more about their history and culture than most people). OTOH, I have my doubts about the Spanish one (I find post Classical Age European history extremely boring so I know fairly little about them and had to rely almost entirely on Internet sources of which I can't really assess the quality) so quite possibly lots of room for improvement there. Any comments on either of them is most welcome, like I said, this is just a proposal, it's by no means final.

When we worked out the details for the general setup of this and are satisfied with the descriptions of the two example civs, similar descriptions can be made for all other civs from the top 16-32 (depending on how things develop). Volunteers for making these descriptions are most welcome but I suggest you only volunteer for civs you really like and/or know a lot about because my 'struggle' with the Spanish was one that I wouldn't want anyone else to go through

In short: read and (hopefully) enjoy and give me any feedback you have...





Red, green and orange parts have been edited as a result of the discussion below.

---------------
* The Mongols *
---------------
Names: Mongolian Empire, the Mongols, Mongol
Time Period: 1200 AD - 1750 AD (Medieval)
Leader: Genghis Khan - alternatives: Kublai Khan, Borte Khatun (f), Akbar the Great
Unique Unit: Horse Archer - alternatives: Composite Bowman, any kind of Medieval Seige weapon (Catapult, Ballista, Mangonel, Trebuchet, Battering Ram, Sapper, etc)
Great Leaders: Subedei, Chepe, Muqali - alternatives: Jelme, Khubilai
Abilities: Militaristic, Expansionist - alternative: Commercial

Historical significance:
Enormous empire that at it's height ruled over much of the Eurasian continent and had a large impact on Asian history from Medieval times onward.

Description:
History has not been kind on the Mongols. Many, historians and laymen alike, have always viewed them as primitive and terrible barbarians who did nothing but conquer, destroy, kill, pillage, plunder and commit all kinds of atrocities (and who disappeared as quickly as they came). All too often are their great accomplishments overlooked. Their military was in every way except size (they were virtually always severely outnumbered) superior to any opponent they ever encountered: their armor, weapons, their seige equipment, their tactics and strategies, their endurance, everything. And as shortlived as it may have been, the Mongols conquered the largest empire that ever existed (though some say the British empire was slightly larger, this just depends on how you measure it) and did this within a human lifetime. They also created a unified China and Russia, both still superpowers today, and made it possible for the Turks to rise to power in the Mediterranean area. And then there are their cultural accomplishments - often influenced by foreigners but distinctly Mongol nonetheless - things like the Great Yasa (see below), the yam (imperial postal system that continued to exist long after the Mongol empire had declined), their literary works ("Secret History of the Mongols", "Collection of Chronicles" et al), poems, artwork, scientific accomplishments (in areas such as mathematics, astronomy, agriculture, philosophy, theology, economics, etc) and construction projects (Taj Mahal and other Moghul construction projects, Beijing, Golden Horde and Central Asian cities). And let's face it, where would the world have been without the great sport that is polo?

But greatest of all was without a doubt their founding father Temuchin, better known under his title Genghis Khan. He was without a doubt one of the greatest, if not the greatest, conqueror and statesman in human history. He took a bunch of rivaling nomadic tribes, conquered them, managed to unite them all under the (back then meaningless) term 'Mongol' and with them conquered much of the Eurasian continent. Genghis didn't just rush into one battle after another like a brute and violent barbarian. On the contrary, he carefully planned each battle and each campaign, he knew exactly what he was doing and where he was going, he was a great strategist. Additionally, Genghis found the pursuit of knowledge very important and made sure the Mongols took advantage of every kind of new technology they encountered during their conquests (most famous examples: writing and siege warfare).

Already early on, Genghis realized very well that with all these different tribes and sedentary nations in his empire, it would not be long before disunity would cause his empire to fall apart. To prevent this, he wrote the Great Yasa, a book containing all the rules and regulations the Mongols had to follow. Although punishment for breaking them was very severe (which resulted in a virtually crime-free society), it was one of the most enlightened and civilized codes of law the world had seen until then. This code said that all people were to be judged by merit and ability rather than by birth or social position, it condemned racism and promoted religious freedom and women's rights (the most skilled Mongol women even fought in the army). Important decisions were to be made not by the Great Khan alone but by the khuriltay, a general assembly of the Mongolian aristorcracy plus other important people in the empire. Genghis even made rules about hygiene, drinking, the environment, combat and hospitality. His basic philosophy was that all men (and women) are equal and that people should always help each other, regardless of who or where they are. These laws kept the Mongol empire together for as long as they did and probably would no doubt have done so for much longer had they been better enforced by Genghis's successors.

In 1206 Genghis was given his title by his people and the next year he invaded Northern China and Korea, then ruled by the Chin and Tangut states. In 1215 the Chin capital, Zhongdu (at the site of present day Beijing), fell to the Mongols and was completely destroyed; this was the Mongols' first success in conquering a heavily fortified city (while being outnumbered 8 to 1). In 1218, after many provocations from its leader, Genghis declared war on Khwarezm (another 'barbarian' state that at that time ruled over present-day Afghanistan, Turkmenistan and Iran). In 1221 he had conquered the whole of the Khwarezmian empire and in the subsequent years the Mongols performed their first raids into present-day Russia. In 1227 the great Khan fell of his horse on a Chinese battlefield and died.

But wise as he was, Genghis did not die without leaving behind a will. He divided his empire amongst his sons and wanted Odegei to take over his position of Great Khan. He also left detailed strategical plans for the conquest of the whole of China (including the south, which was still ruled by the Sung) and Europe. The khuriltay approved Genghis's wishes and Odegei became Khan and set out to conquer the south of China. Once this was accomplished, Batu (Genghis's grandson), in the middle of the winder of 1236, set out for Russia. He conquered the Russian cities one by one and conquered eastern Europe as well. However, when the first Mongols had reached the outskirts of Vienna in 1242 a message arrived: Odegei had died and all Mongols would have to return to Karakorum to choose a new Great Khan, forcing Batu to abandon Genghis' strategy for the conquest of Europe. If it wasn't for this, the Mongols could well have conquered Europe entirely. Once Batu returned the momentum was gone and the Mongols could only consolidate and form the Golden Horde khanate (=province) in Russia, the only part of the empire in which the Mongols actually built a large number of great cities (in the rest of the empire they mostly relied on existing cities). In Persia the Il-Khan khanate was also formed (which would at its height as far west as present-day Turkey) while Central Asia became the Chaghatai khanate. China was conquered and ruled by Kublai Khan (a grandson of Genghis), founder of the Yuan dynasty. From this time forward, trade caravans could travel freely throughout the Mongol empire and an unprecedented cultural and scientific exchange took place between China, Persia and Europe (Pax Mongolica), which among other things accomplished that Europe was pulled out of the Dark Ages.

More armies were launched in many directions (Japan, Java, Egypt, Vietnam, etc) but all failed for different reasons (storms, treachery, etc). The various khanates increasingly grew apart because the descendants of Genghis struggled for power within the empire and Mongols everywhere increasingly adapted to the people they had conquered and thus alienated from each other. In 1260 Kublai moved the capital from Karakorum to the newly founded city of Dadu (aka Beijing, where Marco Polo served under him), thus alienating the other Mongols even further. Over time the various khanates grew weaker and weaker and were eventually conquered by local enemies, only the Golden Horde managed to hold out until 1502 (the others all ceased to exist before 1370). However, this is not the end of the Mongols. For one thing, the conquerors of the Il-Khan (the Timurids) were Mongols themselves and continued to rule this area until the early 16th century. The Moghul (or Mughal) dynasty that conquered the Indian subcontinent from 1520 onwards were Mongols as well. They established a great empire there which brought forth great leaders such as Akbar the Great and Shah Jehan (under whom the Taj Mahal was built). In the first half of the 18th century the power of the Moghul was greatly reduced by the Marathas and in 1858 they completely vanished from the Indian stage when the British officially took over control of India.

Capital: Karakorum - Capital of Mongolian empire
City Names:
Dadu - aka Beijing, Yuan Mongol Capital (Winter Palace)
Shangdu - Yuan Mongol 'Capital' (Summer Palace)
Sarai Batu - Early Golden Horde Capital
Sarai Berke - Late Golden Horde Capital
Tabriz - Old Capital of Il-Khan
Sultaniyya - New Capital of Il-Khan
Almalik - Chaghadai capital
Yihe Huree - modern Mongolia capital (aka Ulaanbataar/Niyslel Huree)
Samarkand - Capital of Timurids; Chaghadai city
Bukhara - Important Timurid city; Chaghadai city
Kashgar - Important Khwarezmian/Chaghadai city
Otrar - historically important Chaghadai city
Saray al-Dzedid - Major Volga (Golden Horde) city
Hadji-Tarkhan - Major Volga (Golden Horde) city
Beldzamen - Major Golden Horde city
Ukek - Major Golden Horde city (aka Ukaka)
Qrim - Major Golden Horde city (aka Solkhat/Surgat)
Azov - Golden Horde city (aka Tana)
Bulgar - Major Golden Horde city, Captured from Bulgarians
Kazan - Major Golden Horde city
Djuketau - Major Golden Horde city
Hangzhou - Important Yuan port city
Kaifeng - Important Yuan city
Chang'an - Important Yuan city
Herat - Important Il-Khan/Timurid city, place of large revolt
Kabul - Il-Khan/Timurid city
Hormuz - Il-Khan/Timurid city
Urgench - Golden Horde City
Orhei - Golden Horde city
Delhi - Indian Moghul Capital
Agra - Important Moghul city
Nishapur - Il-Khan/Timurid city
Kerman - Il-Khan/Timurid city
Aleppo - Il-Khan city
Amber - Moghul city
Lahore - Moghul city
Khiagt - Early Important modern Mongolian city
Darhan - Modern Mongolian industrial city
Erdenet - Modern Mongolian mining city
Choybalsan - Modern Mongolian industrial city
Hovd - Town in ancestral territory (i.e. near Onon river)
Uvs - Town in ancestral territory
Hovsgol - Town in ancestral territory
Dalan Balzhut - Mongolian Battlefield from Genghis's youth
Leignitz - Polish Battlefield (Golden Horde territory)
Wahlstadt - Hungarian Battlefield (Golden Horde territory)
Ayn Jalut - Egyptian Battlefield (Il-Khan territory)
Khalka - Russian Battlefield (Golden Horde territory)
Riazan - First Russian city to fall to Mongols (Golden Horde)

[Locutus]

Red, green, purple and orange parts have been edited as a result of the discussion below.

---------------
* The Spanish *
---------------
Names: Spain, the Spanish, Spanish
Time Period: 1150 AD - 2000 AD (Renaissance)
Leader: Queen Isabella of Castile (f), King Ferdinand of Aragorn - alternative: King Charles V, King Philip II
Unique Unit: Conquistador, Spanish Galleon, Tercios
Great Leaders: Hernando Cortes, Francisco Pizarro, Gonzalo G. de Cordoba, Spinola, Farnese, Adm. Blas de Lezo, Adm. Churruca, Castaños, Roger de Flor , El Cid Campeador (Ruy Díaz de Vivar)
Abilities: Religious, Militaristic - alternative: Commercial, Maritime

Historical significance:
Huge global empire that at it's height ruled over a large part of Europe and the most of what is now Latin America (as well as parts of Africa and Asia), had a large impact on European history from Ancient times onward.

Description:
Long before the Spanish civilization as we know it today came into existance other great civilizations ruled over Spain. Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Greeks, Celts and later Romans all had cities in Spain, mainly because of it's abundant natural resources (gold, silver, tin, copper, grain, wool, olive oil, wine, etc). They all lived and worked next to and with the native inhabitants, the Iberians (as the Greeks called them). Starting in the first century AD, under Roman rule, Christianity was introduced, something which would profoundly influence events in Spain in the centuries to come. After the fall of the Roman Empire in the fifth century AD various Germanic tribes - most notably the Visigoths - moved into Spain but they had little impact historically. The role of the Catholic church grew considerably during this time. In the eighth century the Arabs and the Berbers (together known to the Europeans as Moors) invaded from Africa and enforced Islamic rule over Spain, only in the northern-most regions the Christians still had some power.

It wasn't long though before the Christians began the Reconquista, the reconquest of the subcontinent which would take 700 years. Around 1000 AD a number of pocket states had been formed in the north (Leon, Castile, Aragon, Andorra and others) and these gradually expanded at the dispense of the Muslims. Eventually, in the 12th and 13th century, most of these states as well as (among others) Valencia and the Islas Baleares were federated and governed from Zaragoza and became one of the major trading nations of the Mediterranean. This was originally a fairly weak confederacy of independant states but over time these states (with the exception of Portugal) went through a unification process which would eventually lead to a truly unified kingdom of Spain under Ferdinand and Isabella (see below). Internal struggle between various Muslim groups made the Reconquista much easier, resulting in Spanish victory in the epic battle at Las Navas de Tolosa in 1212 and the capture of Sevilla in 1248. Around this time Spanish merchants started to take over the trade along the Atlantic and North Sea coast from the Hanseatic League and Spanish statesmen started to interfere in Italian politics and take over some territory there (Sicily, Naples). Also, as a result of the Reconquista, Spain took over a lot of knowledge and inventions from the Arabs and collected and taught these things at its famous universities, thus gaining somewhat of a leading position in European science (in fields such as astronomy, navigation, etc). However, things took a bad turn at that point. Weak leadership, plagues, economic decline, revolts and other factors kept the Reconquista dorment for 200 years, until the marriage between Ferdinand of Aragorn and Isabella of Castile in 1469 eventually brought stability and unity again. They finally completed the Reconquista in 1492 by capturing the last Arab stronghold of Granada. All that was left to do at that point was to convert the large non-Christian portion of the Spanish population to Christianity, sometimes with harsh measures (the infamous Inquisition).

In the same year, Christopher Columbus, a Genoese navigator, discovered the New World. Now that the Reconquista was complete, the Spanish kings could divert their attention to exploration and conquest in the Americas. Pope Alexander VI divided the new territories between the Spanish and the Portuguese and the conquest of the New World could begin. This was the era of the infamous Armada of Spanish Galleons and famous explorers like Vasco Nunez de Balboa (discovered the Pacific), Ferdinand Magellan (circumnavigated the globe), Hernando Cortes (conquered the Aztec) and Francisco Pizarro (conquered the Incas). These last two formed a new type of explorer, the conquistador, an independent conqueror and entrepeneur who searched for gold and treasure and who was financed by private investors, officially sanctioned by the Spanish government. Once these conquistadors had conquered a certain portion of the New World, settlement and trade could commence. By the 1540's the Spanish had firmly established themselves in the New World, exploiting the natives for tribute and labour. The enormous amounts of gold and other trade goods that came from this new continent soon made Spain the richest and most powerful country in Europe and Spanish culture a standard for others to follow and imitate.

In 1516, through royal marriages, Charles V of Ghent became king of Spain (under the name King Charles I) and all it's colonies (later he acquired Germany and the Low Lands and was elected Holy Roman Emperor). Upon his retirement in 1556 he divided his empire and gave Spain (among other territories) to his son Philip II. In 1580 Philip also inherited Portugal and thus the Iberian Peninsula was united for the next 60 years. All this dynastic powerplay dragged Spain into all kinds of European wars and thanks to all it's newly acquired colonial wealth and religious developments (Reformation and Counter-Reformation), it also had many enemies (France, Italy, England, Germany, the Low Lands, the Ottoman Empire, etc). The heavy burden of upkeeping the military and poor economic policy eventually costed the Spanish dearly though. Military, economic, social and political decline followed, Catalonia, Portugal and the Netherlands declared independance, war with France and plagues, floods and famine wasted the country. As the Spanish Habsburg dynasty came to an end, the War of Spanish Succession (1702-1714) began, which is by some seen as the true first 'world war'. Politically the outcome of this war was a setback but it did result in internal unity in Spain itself and a pretty much intact colonial empire.

After that Spain was basically an ordinary European nation and went through much of the same developments as the rest of Europe: Enlightenment, segragation of church and state (which did more evil than good in Spain because the Catholic church was tied so deeply into Spanish society), Napoleontic era, civil wars (18th century), emigration to and independence movements in the colonies, government reforms, industrialization (19th century). Only during the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s was Spain once again truely the center of the world. In this war between ideologies (all major ideologies of the time were somehow represented: nationalists, fascists, communists, anarchists, capitalists, democrats, monarchists, Christians, etc), nationalist Franco was victorious and reigned over Spain for the next four decades as a dictator. After this the transition to democracy was made and Spain became a constitutional monarchy, which it still is today.

Capital: Madrid - Capital of Spain
City names:
Barcelona - ancient Spanish city
Valencia - important Roman city; major federation city
Sevilla - old Iberian city; major federation city
Zaragoza - important Roman city; capital of Spanish confederation
Merida - important Roman city
Cadiz - possibly oldest (Phoenician) city in Western Europe
Toledo - Visigoth capital, Spanish World Heritage center
Córdoba - Arabic caliphate, Spanish World Heritage center
Granada - important Islamic city state
Bilbo Bilbao - Large Spanish city
Málaga - Important Phoenician city
San Sebastián - Large Spanish city
Gijón - Large Spanish city
A Cruña/La Coruña - Large Spanish city
Albacete - Large Spanish city
Murcia - Large Spanish city
Salamanca - Important scientific/cultural center (university), Spanish World Heritage center
Santiago de Compostela - Important religious center, Spanish World Heritage center
Ávila - Important Castillian center, Spanish World Heritage center
Cáceres - Important cultural center, Spanish World Heritage center
Cuenca - Important cultural center, Spanish World Heritage center
Segovia - Important Roman cultural center, Spanish World Heritage center
Ibiza/Eivissa - Important Phoenician colony
Cartagena - Important Carthaginian city
Valladolid - Large Spanish city
León - Large Spanish city
Santander - Large Spanish city
Oviedo - Large Spanish city
Tarragona - Important Roman city
Almería - Large Spanish city
Gasteiz/Vitoria - Large Spanish city
Lleida/Lérida - Large Spanish city
Castellón de la Plana - Large Spanish city
Pamplona - Large Spanish city
Burgos - Large Spanish city
Badajoz - Large Spanish city
Alicante - Large Spanish city
Huelva - Large Spanish city
Almunecar - Important Phoenician city
Rosas - Important Greek city
Ampurias - Important Greek city
Sagunto - Important Iberian/Greek city
Santa Cruz de Tenerife - Canary Island city
Las Palmas - Canary Island city
Isabella - first permanent Spanish settlement in New World
Panama - early Spanish settlment in Panama
Veracruz - founded by Cortes in Mexico
Buenos Aires - Spanish city in Argentina
San Miguel de Guadalupe - first (unsuccessful) Spanish settlement in North America (in Georgia/S. Carolina)

[Jay Bee]

Locutus,

quite good indeed, except for this part

Around 1000 AD a number of pocket states had been formed in the north (Leon, Castile, Aragorn, Andorra and others) and these gradually expanded at the dispense of the Muslims. Eventually around 1140 most of these states, as well as Valencia and the Islas Baleares, were federated and governed from Barcelona (this is a confederacy which basically still exists today but which would never be extremely strong, often individual member states had a lot of freedom and at times even strove for independence);

I wonder where did you get that from. But as I said, except for this, that was a post


PS. I could spot a few mistakes here and there, but mostly unimportant.

[Gramphos]

Cool, how many of the Civs will you feature. (How long until Neanderthals )

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
quite good indeed

This is very good to hear, coming from someone with a Spanish background...

I wonder where did you get that from.

Well, it was basically a summary of this page (in case that URL fails - it's supposed to be a temporary file - go here and click on the link 'Castile and Aragorn'). I added the mention of the confederacy not being strong myself as I kept reading about various Spanish provinces trying to break off at different times in various other places on the web.
Nothing of what I read elsewhere seems to contradict it, but that doesn't have to mean anything of course. What exactly is wrong with it? Could you by any chance briefly describe your version of Spanish history from roughly 700-1200 (in particular the early phase of the Reconquista)? I'd be more than willing to fix it...

PS. I could spot a few mistakes here and there, but mostly unimportant.

Hmm, if you want to, I certainly wouldn't mind if you pointed some out. To me a mistake is a mistake, no matter how minor it might be. It would at least be worth checking it out, so I can see if my sources were unreliable, if I misunderstood them, if I added some stuff myself that I shouldn't have, if it's a matter of personal interpretation, etc...

Gramphos,
That will mainly depend on how many people volunteer to help, for which civ(s) they volunteer, how much work it will all take, etc. I at least want the current top 13 done and add important 'runner-ups' (at least the rest of the top 16 and hopefully other civs from the top 32) if it's possible to do so without taking too much time and energy from whoever might be involved... And no, I for one don't plan on covering the Neanderthals but maybe someone with a better sense of humour might take it up (*hint* *hint*)

[jdd2007]

ANOTHER EXCELLENT THREAD!!! THREE THUMBS UP !!! ID HELP, BUT IM TOO LAZY...

locutus, i nominate you for the BEST thread starter. regardless of anything i said, i will drag myself up and do some research for the Hebrew/Israelis...

[Wernazuma III]

I couldn't yet read everything, but just some thoughts:

Eventually around 1140 most of these states, as well as Valencia and the Islas Baleares, were federated and governed from Barcelona

I thought the Baleares haven't been reconquered until 1235...

In 1516, through royal marriages, Charles V of Ghent

Ghent?? He was a Habsburg; I think he lived in Ghent for some time (his mother was from there IMHO), but he was mainly Karl V of Habsburg

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by Locutus
This is very good to hear, coming from someone with a Spanish background...

It's a bit more than that

Well, it was basically a summary of this page (in case that URL fails - it's supposed to be a temporary file - go here and click on the link 'Castile and Aragorn').

Aragon, not Aragorn I assumed you were referring to the so-called Catalano-Aragonese confederation (a XIX c. term actually), but its capital was Zaragoza, not Barcelona. The latter was the most important city of the Kingdom for many years, that's true. Valencia and The Balearic Islands (And Sicily and even Athens) were united to the "confederated kingdom" much later.
The largest and biggest Christian kingdom in Iberia was formed when Castile and Leon united. It is from this kingdom that Portugal seceded. It was a bit odd not to mention that.

I seem to recall you're able to read Spanish. Is it true? If so I could provide you with a few links.

About the secessions, with the exception of Portugal there never was one. I think that chapter belongs more in the XIX century with the rise of the nationalistic movements in different parts of Spain.

Hmm, if you want to, I certainly wouldn't mind if you pointed some out. To me a mistake is a mistake, no matter how minor it might be. It would at least be worth checking it out, so I can see if my sources were unreliable, if I misunderstood them, if I added some stuff myself that I shouldn't have, if it's a matter of personal interpretation, etc...

Okay

It should be either Emperor Charles V or King Charles I (much better this one -- Spain was never part of the HR Empire), not King Charles V.

Unique unit: you may also want to add the Tercios and the Galleon (and the missionaire ).

The Spanish empire at its height also ruled over Asian and African territories. Contrary to the belief by many on these boards, the famous sentence 'an empire wher the sun never sets'
was not coined for the British Empire but for Philip II's Spanish Empire. The Brits seemed to like the sentence and borrowed it
Oh, at her height, Spain ruled over all of Latin America (Haiti excepted).

Barcelona is not an old Iberian city. It is said to have been founded by the Carthaginians (Hamilcar Barca -> Barcino, Barcinona -> Barcelona) although this is disputed.

Sad as it is, but Gibraltar is not a Spanish city.

Cartagena was never Phoenician in its stricy sense. It was founded by the Carthaginians (I know, I know).

Sagunto was an Iberian town, not Greek

Veracruz, not Velacruz. That means True Cross.


On a lighter note, if Ribannah sees this: "Spanish culture a standard for others to follow and imitate." I am sure she will push and push until you change it Just kidding

[Gangerolf]

Abilities: Religious, Militaristic - alternative: Commercial, Maritime

Will it be possible to create new C.S. Abilities, or are you just speculating?
Anyway, what would being Maritime in civ3 terms imply? Increased ship movement and cheaper ships perhaps?

[Master Marcus]

Impressive lot of work, Locutus. Hope this can be somehow be sent to Firaxis too ( like the expansion civs ) . Wish I'd help, but I lack the time ...I don't even have the time to play at my content. At least I read the results.

[Ribannah]

Once more a great endeavour, Locutus!

Here are just some bits I missed about the Spanish: when they lost their colonies, the trade and use of African slaves, the Basques, the Armada (a wonder?), their art.
It is funny that their Salamanca is a heritage center, too!

With regard to the Mongols I would add something about Marco Polo.

For both the Mongols and the Spanish I would like some focus on their scientific accomplishments.

[Waku]

You need a doctor honey, you're really sick

[Shaka Naldur]

Originally posted by Ribannah


Here are just some bits I missed about the Spanish: when they lost their colonies, the trade and use of African slaves, the Basques, the Armada (a wonder?), their art.
It is funny that their Salamanca is a heritage center, too!

For both the Mongols and the Spanish I would like some focus on their scientific accomplishments.

after this I´m going to join the Ribannah´s fanclub

[orange]

Ribannah's been posting her anti-Spanish pro-Iroquois crap all over the forums. Why don't you check out any of the threads currently on the Iroquois (there are plenty) and read all of her posts.

Her stance is that the Iroquois are more deserving of being in Civ III than the Spanish, and she rips up a lot of Spanish history/culture while exaggerating her fanatical view of Iroquois civilization all along the way. Good for shits and giggles.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Waku
You need a doctor honey, you're really sick

You'd better not come close, or you will die.

[Locutus]

Jdd,
Thanks for the compliments (I guess if you only start threads once every 6 months on average, they'd better be good ) and for volunteering to try and do at least some research on the Jewish. If you (or anyone else for that matter) can't or don't feel like doing 'an entire civ', just collecting a bunch of high-quality URLs or doing a 'partial civ' or a rough draft could be very helpful as well...

Jay Bee (and Wernazuma),
Well, in this area I'm only a layman relying on websources but Charles *was* from Ghent and known as such in his early years (when he came into the picture as candidate for the position of King of Spain), he *was* - like virtually every member of the European royalty - a member of the Habsburg family and he *was* elected Holy Roman Emperor by Pope Leo X (and thus Spain became part of the Empire for a while). To the best of my knowlegde these are all historic facts (didn't even have to look those things up, he was an important figure in Dutch history as well so I learned all about him in high school). I agree though that King Charles I (isn't it Carlos I in Spanish?) would be a more appropriate name for the Spanish context. (A useful source on him is the Catholic Encyclopedia. The above facts are all mentioned in the first few paragraphs.)

It's a bit more than that

Well, quite frankly I don't know you all that well so I thought I'd keep it as general as possible

Aragon, not Aragorn

Says something about how much I know about Spanish history

I assumed you were referring to the so-called Catalano-Aragonese confederation (a XIX c. term actually), but its capital was Zaragoza, not Barcelona. The latter was the most important city of the Kingdom for many years, that's true. Valencia and The Balearic Islands (And Sicily and even Athens) were united to the "confederated kingdom" much later.

Well, I guess my source on that Christian kingdoms bit was way off then, I'll definitely need to double check that with some other sites (but I'll take your word for it that your description is accurate)...

I wondered about Portugal but couldn't really find anything about it (didn't look too hard though, only need info on them later), thanks for pointing that out.

I speak some basic Spanish (only slightly more than the average Northern European tourist ) but I think if you start to throw all kinds of academic articles at me, I won't be able to make much sense of it. Better restrict yourself to English links...

True, except for Portugal there were never actually any secessions within Iberia but I read of many instances of 'nations' trying or at least seriously considering it (Andalusia, Catalonia, Basque Provinces, IIRC even Galicia at one point), which is what I was referring to. Or is this incorrect or overrated?

I guess I meant Galleon when I wrote Galley but Tercios would indeed be nice to add as UU.

You're saying there are people in the world that don't know Spain is the 'empire where the sun never sets'? Man, those can't be Dutch posters, they've been cramming that into our heads pretty much since kindergarten over here...

As far as Latin America goes: how about Brazil? AFAIK it has always been Portuguese (could be wrong though)...

Well, since Barcelona is apparently disputed (didn't know that, sites with general info on Spanish cities are rare, only found one and it specifically said it was Iberian), I guess I'll just say it's an ancient Spanish city... Cartagena, well, what can I say? I guess since I mentioned Carthaginians and Phoenicians seperately earlier on, I should fix that... I'll take your word on Sagunto even though I read on numerous sites that it was Greek (perhaps it was Iberian in originin but Greeks started living there later on?). Veracruz I knew, it was a typo (I hope!) in my atlas and I wasn't paying attention...

On a lighter note: Ribannah can drop dead - j/k

Thanks a ton for all the info, tomorrow (getting a little late over here) I'll update the description to reflect my new insights...

Gangerolf,
On the Maritime CSA, I took the liberty of assuming that Firaxis *might* add new abilities, so as an 'alternative' I added Maritime. As far as I'm concerned this kind of possible new abilities should not be used as a 'primary' ability though.

Master Marcus,

Hope this can be somehow be sent to Firaxis too ( like the expansion civs )

That's the whole idea! Together it's gonna be one big Chrismas? (wildly speculating here) present from Apolyton for Firaxis

Ribannah,
I guess I could casually drop in the time-frame in which the Spanish lost their colonies and mention Marco Polo in relation to Qublai. I think the Basque independence movement is already (indirectly) mentioned when I talk about how weak the Spanish confederacy has always been and I already mentioned Spanish art (indirectly) as part of their cultural heritage that everyone imitated. The mention of slave trade seems rather unimportant to me as the idea is to tress why a civ was great (and slavery is not exactly a great achievement) and because until the 19th century slavery was absolutely normal and everyone did it (yes, I know all about the cruelties). I'll think about the Armada and Mongol and Spanish science (what *are* the scientific accomplishments of the Spanish?). Important to remember is that this is only a introductionary summary, for both civs I had to leave a lot of stuff out that would have been very suitable to include (heck, I could write a whole book about the Mongols!) but I was originally aiming for 600 word summaries (like the CotW feature) and I was already at 1000 words for the Spanish and 1200 for the Mongols, I had to stop somewhere...

[Shaka Naldur]

Originally posted by orange
Ribannah's been posting her anti-Spanish pro-Iroquois crap all over the forums.

yeah, I know

I read the posts, but i don´t feel like writing anything, I just think that it is a waste of time, but i couldn´t help myself when I read her last post

I´m glad to know that not only the spaniards are a little tired about all the iroquois vs. spanish thing

[orange]

Originally posted by Shaka Naldur


yeah, I know

I read the posts, but i don´t feel like writing anything, I just think that it is a waste of time, but i couldn´t help myself when I read her last post

I´m glad to know that not only the spaniards are a little tired about all the iroquois vs. spanish thing

Well, it's one thing to want the Iroquois in the game over the Spanish...

...it's another to post half truths and lies to get your 'point' across.

[Shaka Naldur]

Originally posted by Ribannah
the Basques

if you don´t think that the spanish empire deserve to be in the civ3 computer game that´s ok,
if you are looking for reasons to demonstrate so that´s ok too,

but don´t even think about playing with the situation in the Basque Country

[monkspider]

great work Locutus! a thread that has been neatly saved away on my hard drive.

Oh, and don't be so hard on Ribannah everyone!

LOVE HIAWATHA!! LOVE HIAWATHA!!

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ribannah


You'd better not come close, or you will die.

You complain about other people's posts, and then respond like the above.

One more like that, and YOU will be the one taking a little vacation from posting.

Check your email, BTW.

[orange]

[Ubik]

Great job, Locutus, you manage to amaze me every now and then

I'd like to volunteer for the making up of the Byzantines, if that's ok with you (message or mail me if you wish me to help out a bit).

And... boys, girls... Ribanah, Orange and the rest... stop this, it is growing quite annoying you know...

[LaRusso]

Hm, methinks Arabs would me my favourite if they were included. Anyone volunteering to sort them out?

[Locutus]

Jay Bee,
Oh, BTW, forgot about Gibraltar: I know it's not Spanish today, but doesn't it have a Spanish origin (the list should IMHO reflect cities that were historically important, not just cities that are now part of Spain)? Or is it regardless of that too sensitive an issue to include as Spanish city?

Anyway, I changed the summary (changes are in red), I hope it's better like this (though my previous post still has a few unanswered questions that may require further editing - things that I plan to research on myself shortly).

Shaka, Orange, others,
I haven't been following the Iroquois discussions but, like monkspider said, will you (at least within this thread) give Ribannah a break? She is entitled to her opinion and you are to yours...

Ubik,
I very much appreciate your offer to help with the Byzantines. I guess the appropriate thing to do for now is to wait if anyone has any comments on the general setup of the summaries (anyone? all comments so far have been about the Spanish and Mongol or about what a great job I'm doing ) and start researching (if needed)...

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
You complain about other people's posts, and then respond like the above.
One more like that, and YOU will be the one taking a little vacation from posting.
Check your email, BTW.

Michael, I did not ask you to send anyone on vacation, so please don't make it sound like I did.
But I did get tired of the abuse.
So here's the deal. It's non-negotiable.

If anyone flames my post ("claiming the Iroquois had houses is rubbish") I will keep ignoring the flame (and provide additional info on Iroquois longhouses) as always.
If anyone flames me ("you are an idiot"), previously ignored, Waku gets it.
If anyone makes any racist remarks ("Iroquois are chimpansees"), Waku gets it.
I'm sorry for Waku (well, not really), but since I am outnumbered 10:1 I have no
options. He can escape by apologizing or by convincing his buddies to behave.
Meanwhile, I will try and gather all the Iroquois info I provided in a number of threads and start a new one, to give you the opportunity to close the old threads. This may take a few days (as I have little time right now), so be patient.

Like I said, this is non-negotiable. But it's your forum. So if you want to punish the victim instead of the bullies it's your prerogative. It won't help, they will simply pick on the next person who refuses to worship the Spanish, like KittenOfChaos before me.

I apologize to Locutus for posting this in this thread - Michael, please remove all the off-topic posts from this thread 24 hours from now.

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Like I said, this is non-negotiable. But it's your forum. So if you want to punish the victim instead of the bullies it's your prerogative. It won't help, they will simply pick on the next person who refuses to worship the Spanish, like KittenOfChaos before me.

Sorry for posting this here but I felt i had to respond to the above post. Please mods delete it at the time you delete Ribannah's

That is a blatant lie like all of yours. As Shaka told you above, and me and Fiera, and Martinus, and Harlan, and Chris, and Waku, and LOTM, and marquis, and orange, and Boris and etc, etc, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion and we will always respect it as long as is made from the respect to everyone else's. That clearly has not been your case. Everytime someone posted a somewhat positive message about the Spanish, you've jumped in and posted insidious crap. See above, what's the point in bringing the Basque problem or the African slave trade to this thread? You were being on the attack once again. Think for a moment why so many people from so many different backgrounds have 'teamed up' against your posting style. You are merely reaping what you alone sow.

After Mark closed that famous infamous thread, everybody dropped the issue. Everybody but you. You started the nonsense again. What would you expect from us? Notice that kitten has not posted a single note about this issue ever since. You have posted pages.

I am really sad and tired with this. I really wanted this stupidity to end once for all. But as long as you keep posting the crap you have been posting, I will respond in kind. I bet some other will do the same. So it's all up to you. You stop, we stop. It's that easy.


Sorry again for the interruption.

[Wernazuma III]

One question: Do we all agree on Locutus' format to describe the Civs?

At any rate, I volunteer to work on Mayans and Inca.

[Alexander I]

Darn! I had this same idea, but Locutus, you made it here first! Anyway, since it's already started, I'm in for the ride. Good work so far, Locutus!

Potential Spanish unit: Armada (Galleon)

New Civs, Locutus can add his details later:

Phoenicians (Carthaginians included)

Phoenicia, the Phoenicians, Phoenician

Leader: King Hiram of Tyre, Queen Jezebel
Unit: Pentekonter/Quinquireme (Trireme)
Capital: Tyre
Cities: Sidon, Byblos, Carthage, Oea, Cartagena, Tarshish. etc. - Locutus?
Attributes: Commercial, Industrious?
Generals: Hannibal, Hamilcar Barca, Hasdrubal, Hanno

Strategy:
The Phoenicians are an early maritime and trade civilization, and are the first to have a strong navy. However, they are weak on land and should ally early on with the Egyptians (real life) or the Babylonians to stay afloat (pardon the pun). They will also have possible conflicts with the nearby Israelites - coming soon - unless they open some trade routes. They have almost a monopoly on murex purple dye and red cedar wood, two new luxury commodities, which gives them trade advantages with their neighbors and elsewhere. If they can weather the early age storm, they should outlive they early empires, and move into the "Carthaginian" phase of existence, spreading colonies over the empty parts of the Mediterranean, and trade with the up and coming Indians in the east, for War Elephants! If they can pull a Hannibal, get lucky, and take out Rome, they're in good shape. However, once the industrial age is reached, they will weaken, and be hard pressed to avoid being eliminated by the new naval powers, the Dutch (Fluyt), Spanish (Armada), and British (Man-of-War). Perhaps another alliance is in store for Phoenicia. Otherwise they're just another tortured Lebanon.

Dutch

The Netherlands, the Dutch, Dutch
Leader: Prince William of Orange
Unit: Fluyt (Caravel) - weak, speedy ship with increased carrying capacity
Attributes: Commercial, ?
Capital: Amsterdam
Cities: The Hague, Rotterdam, ...

Enemy: Spanish - they want to take over the Netherlands, per history, to eliminate a naval threat. The Dutch get their unit a little before the Spanish get theirs, so they should try to maximize this opportunity. Also possible is a British alliance, relying on the later Man-of-War to assist.

I'm out of time right now, and must go, but feel free to fill in the many blanks.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Locutus
This is a confederacy which more or less still exists today but which would never be extremely strong, especially early on individual member states had a lot of freedom and at times some even considered independence, something which only Portugal (once part of a united Castile-Leon kingdom) actually pushed through.

I think it would be more precise to say that it was a union of independant states that went through a unification process (marriage Fernando/Isabella), that for some decades even incorporated Portugal.

Weak leadership, plagues, economic decline, revolts and other factors kept the Reconquista dorment for 200 years, until the marriage between Ferdinand of Aragorn and Isabella of Castile in 1469 eventually brought stability and unity again. They finally completed the Reconquista in 1492 by capturing the last Arab stronghold of Granada.

Maybe it could be nice here to add a sentence about the fact that through the Reconquista, Spain became somewhat of a scientific leader in Europe by taking over arab knowledges (esp. Astronomy, Navigation, but generally universities).

Francisco Pizzaro (conquered the Incas).

Pizarro?
These last two formed a new type of explorer, the conquistador, an independent conqueror and entrepeneur who searched for gold and treasure and who was financed by private investors, officially sanctioned by the Spanish government. Once these conquistadors had conquered a certain portion of the New World, settlement and trade could commence. By the 1540's the Spanish had firmly established themselves in the New World, exploiting the natives for tribute and labour. The enormous amounts of gold and other trade goods that came from this new continent soon made Spain the richest and most powerful country in Europe and Spanish culture a standard for others to follow and imitate.

independence movements in the colonies

occured mainly during the napoleonic wars and in the following decades, just if you want to add.

Mexico - Spanish city in Mexico

Ciudad de Mexico is nothing more than the old aztec capital Mexico-Tenochtitlan, so I don't think it should be used as an example of a colonial spanish city. Maybe Buenos Aires or Santiago de Cuba or Darién.