Has the pessimism on this board gotten out of hand?

Originally posted by Shiva


Then you agree using it in an argument having to do with anything about Civ3 is baseless since Civ2 was far better.

I said a "better game" not a "far better game". Fact is, they were very close in conceptual terms. Civ2 had a better interface, felt less cluttered by tons of city improvements that CTP with its massive number of buildings, and while CTP might have gone far beyond Civ2 with its future stuff, the fact that the AI could not handle ANY of the future stuff at all (look at those crappy sea city placements) make all of that a detriment. CTP also had a bit much micromanagement for my tastes. Far better game? No. Better? Yes.

Bahhh the hell you say. You may think that but take a look at the top 100 game lists. You'll almost always find it. You'll also find its one of the most sought after games out there at the freeware sites, not to mention Pirates for windows CD's being sold on Ebay.

What's your point other than bad taste is rampant!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Jeje, I understand that. I do. There was some of that feeling with SMAC. Also EU2 does look good. EU was ok for me, but not as good as other games. Events and choices would make the game very nice (like it should have been the first time in my opinion).

And yes, the PR was bad. Firaxis has never had good PR (they don't seem to spend a lot of time thinking about it). However, does that mean that they should be boycotted for it? At least they give us SOMETHING! Some companies don't even do that (look at Sierra)!

Why should we release the game in the Spring, and penalize the SP people? And yes, btw, if MP was done now, I'd say release MP, and then release SP later. One group shouldn't be penalized because everything isn't ready (which is why I also oppose worldwide release dates).

[Imran Siddiqui]

MP:

Perhaps the bad taste is yours?

A lot of people on this forum would think so.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by Jeje2

FIRAXIS should really do their beta good

Ummm what makes you think that their beta was not done good?

MP:

Perhaps the bad taste is yours?

A lot of people on this forum would think so.

Ahh, but their taste is so bad that they mistake my excellent taste for bad. It's like eating at McFishwiches at McDonalds your whole life, and then complaining about the grilled salmon steaks.

Stricken from the record for both poor taste and lack of pluralism.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant


I said a "better game" not a "far better game". Fact is, they were very close in conceptual terms. Civ2 had a better interface, felt less cluttered by tons of city improvements that CTP with its massive number of buildings, and while CTP might have gone far beyond Civ2 with its future stuff, the fact that the AI could not handle ANY of the future stuff at all (look at those crappy sea city placements) make all of that a detriment. CTP also had a bit much micromanagement for my tastes. Far better game? No. Better? Yes.

Then you agree using it in an argument having to do with anything about Civ3 is baseless since Civ2 was better.

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant
What's your point other than bad taste is rampant!

The point is the game was a big success, and is still held as one greats which you have said it isnt. Popular opinion invalidates your calling it otherwise no matter how biased to it you are. Sorry facts are facts and you cant argue with it. Its one thing to say in your opinion, its something again to flat out state everyone who holds a differing opinion to you is wrong.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant


You need to learn your English gooder, jeje2.

Attacking someones english who isnt from an english speaking country. How sad. And your profile says your a teacher too? No wonder this country has so many problems.

Originally posted by Shiva



Attacking someones english who isnt from an english speaking country. How sad. And your profile says your a teacher too? No wonder this country has so many problems.

Whoops. Apologies.

[yin26]

Hey, Mister Pleasant: Thanks again for giving the heads up on the MP thing. I know you caught a lot of heat for it...but it was great info despite the way it reached us.

Then you agree using it in an argument having to do with anything about Civ3 is baseless since Civ2 was better.

My argument that being "Civ" (either Sid or CTP incarnation) does not guarantee a good game? Not sure what you mean here . . . Or I forgot what you're talking about.

The point is the game was a big success, and is still held as one greats which you have said it isnt. Popular opinion invalidates your calling it otherwise no matter how biased to it you are.

Popular opinion proves nothing except what the majority believes. It was once popular opinion that the Earth was flat. Didn't make it so. In the same vein, popular opinion does not make pirates great.

Sorry facts are facts and you cant argue with it. Its one thing to say in your opinion, its something again to flat out state everyone who holds a differing opinion to you is wrong.

Lighten up.

Originally posted by yin26
Hey, Mister Pleasant: Thanks again for giving the heads up on the MP thing. I know you caught a lot of heat for it...but it was great info despite the way it reached us.

I probably would have been suspicious myself. Thing is, I got the email and immediately posted because I was in shock that the no multiplayer info fell into my lap so easily. Of course I can probably write off ever getting an evaluation copy of anything from Firaxis ever again. But that's OK.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant
My argument that being "Civ" (either Sid or CTP incarnation) does not guarantee a good game? Not sure what you mean here . . . Or I forgot what you're talking about.

The argument was that Civ is Civ not CTP as Crouchback tried to link it and Fluxcapacitor was false. Once again I didnt say Civ3 will good bad or anything else. Just that two are apples to oranges.

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant
Popular opinion proves nothing except what the majority believes. It was once popular opinion that the Earth was flat. Didn't make it so. In the same vein, popular opinion does not make pirates great.

Nor does one mans opinion invalidate everyone elses. Your the one who stated everyone who liked it was wrong. Your the one that needs to lighten up.

Nor does one mans opinion invalidate everyone elses. Your the one who stated everyone who liked it was wrong. Your the one that needs to lighten up.

I swear, if you don't put a smiley next to something the kids take you so seriously.

The argument was that Civ is Civ not CTP as Crouchback tried to link it and Fluxcapacitor was false. Once again I didnt say Civ3 will good bad or anything else. Just that two are apples to oranges.

Oh that. I was pointing out that CTP was civ (construed conceptually as opposed to in-name. But I guess CTP1 WAS civ in-name as well . . . ). But the point is somewhat moot because I liked CTP. On the other hand, legions of Apolytoners didn't like it. Yet it was civ nonetheless. Thus a game being a civ game does not guarantee it will satisfy us.

[Jeje2]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
PR
However, does that mean that they should be boycotted for it? At least they give us SOMETHING! Some companies don't even do that (look at Sierra)!

Why should we release the game in the Spring, and penalize the SP people? And yes, btw, if MP was done now, I'd say release MP, and then release SP later. One group shouldn't be penalized because everything isn't ready.

Imran
You have a very good point. MP shouldn't a reason for delaying SP.
(Quake 3 MP demo was released half a year before SP, becouse they had problems with making a good SP.) So yes Imran, I stand corrected.

But if MP is left out blaiming on hurry - what more I ask myself is hurried?
(A question good PR could help a lot) So right now I still feel like spring would be better time.


About boycooting I really don't have any opinion except my own desicion.
I will buy Civ3 tin box someday - I simply don't anymore feel a need to buy it on first available date. (OK, most likely will buy it the first time I see it in a shop near me )

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Shiva
Attacking someones english who isnt from an english speaking country. How sad. And your profile says your a teacher too? No wonder this country has so many problems.

I suppose Mr Pleasant, as I usually do, just looking near your forum avatar or your profile probably guess you are from an US city.
Yin26 had to specify his american origin after some funny trouble with posters guessing he was a Korean - Nothing wrong with Korea, of course, but it's always better to help people to classify you easily

BTW I know I probably do many mistakes in my english post (anyone feel free to PM to me any correction they deserve, specially english teachers). I can live with it, hope you can do the same!

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Jeje2

I simply don't anymore feel a need to buy it on first available date. (OK, most likely will buy it the first time I see it in a shop near me)

You might have to wait quite long for that day.
There's no information about the BTE's release
in Europe. Some speculations has said "first quarter 2002".

[tniem]

I would just like to say about pessimism getting out of hand, many tried including Yin in the first days of info on no MP to put it in the proper prespective. As I recall yin was very sceptical of the email.

He started a thread trying to suggest ways to help Firaxis weaken the pain we were feeling. I helped write what I thought would have been a good press release or at least a good statement to basically say "yeah were not including MP, but hell SP is just so sweat, that it ain't gonna matter." Of course we all know Firaxis sat on it. For whatever reason they didn't say anything. All it did was let pessimism to brew for a couple weeks. When all they really needed to do was come out and say the game is still going to rock to satisfy most of the complaints. Instead they finally released in an interview and update to their FAQ that MP was not going to make the cut. And you wonder why some people, my self included have some worries that we feel need to be expressed.

[Ozymandous]

Originally posted by Shiva

As for being inspired by Sid so what? Wonder how many RT games were inspired by Warcraft and fell flat on thier butt. Doesnt make them Warcraft. Blizzard makes it Warcraft the same way Sid makes it Civ and not some pale imitation.

Hmm, another example. Age of Empires and Age of Kings was also inspired by Warcraft and in were much better (IMHO).

The relevance? A game doesn't have to come from one company or person to be good, it just has to have good developers and a team to get it done.

(Psst. Shiva, Baaaa...)

[Shiva]

Originally posted by Ozymandous


Hmm, another example. Age of Empires and Age of Kings was also inspired by Warcraft and in were much better (IMHO).

The relevance? A game doesn't have to come from one company or person to be good, it just has to have good developers and a team to get it done.

(Psst. Shiva, Baaaa...)

Yes but again you cannot say what Warcraft3 will do based what was done by Age Of Empires. Warcrafts track record is based on Warcraft not what it has inspired. That same holds true with Civ.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by Adm.Naismith


I suppose Mr Pleasant, as I usually do, just looking near your forum avatar or your profile probably guess you are from an US city.
Yin26 had to specify his american origin after some funny trouble with posters guessing he was a Korean - Nothing wrong with Korea, of course, but it's always better to help people to classify you easily

BTW I know I probably do many mistakes in my english post (anyone feel free to PM to me any correction they deserve, specially english teachers). I can live with it, hope you can do the same!

Thing is people shouldnt be flamed for the country they are from just the ideas they hold

[Imran Siddiqui]

But if MP is left out blaiming on hurry - what more I ask myself is hurried?
(A question good PR could help a lot) So right now I still feel like spring would be better time.

Actually though I think it is a good sign. MP would have been rushed and probably very buggy if they released it now. They are saying that they won't have it done, so they won't rush it. Saying that SP is done, and tested adequatly, and MP isn't. Lot of companies would simply tack on a horrible MP component just to get it out the door (if the SP was done already).

[tniem]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
[Actually though I think it is a good sign. MP would have been rushed and probably very buggy if they released it now. They are saying that they won't have it done, so they won't rush it. Saying that SP is done, and tested adequatly, and MP isn't. Lot of companies would simply tack on a horrible MP component just to get it out the door (if the SP was done already).

See this is the exact point where we disagree. I respect your opinion, I really do. And I believe you are correct that most studios probably would have just sent the game out the door with the poor MP capabilities.

But that does not in my opinion lead to good news. See you clearly believe what Firaxis tells you and have great faith in Sid. Good for you. I am glad for you. In fact I wish that I could have the same faith.

I, for one, have been burned enough by not only game companies but others that make me look at every statement with a grain of salt. So Firaxis telling me that SP is totally ready just doesn't necessarily make me confident in the game. I look at the fact that only a month and a half ago they changed the civ attributes of a few and they added peaceful golden age wonders to mean that they were still tinkering with things that need to be tested for months against the AI to see if it can handle it. Then on top of that they tell me that they were no where near getting MP done. MP is something in today's market that should have been started from the beginning. So I have to wonder what else they are failing to tell us.

So I guess this is the point where we differ and it is not because I feel that I am overly pessimistic nor because I don't respect your opinion, but simply that because of our backgrounds I cannot have the faith that you do. And so I do have some serious concerns about the game and so whenever someone says this game is going to rock and you all are just whining, I will continue to make a small post of why they should be a little weary. That is all. Hopefully you can respect that to a degree.

[VetLegion]

So, yes, I do see you as a spoiled brat, leading whining children. Sorry if you don't like my analogy.

being one of the people who posted against SP only civ3, I have to say your insults are, well, simply insults

I dont think I am 'whining children' and neither that I can or will simply be 'led' by anyone. Really bad 'arguments' from your side Imran.


and I repeat my opinion on this; it is easy to play MP game in singleplay, but adding MP to a singleplay game is not easy. MP is not a simple thing, adding it will not be simple if the game was not designed and tested in MP.

but I have explained what I think in other threads, so I leave the web space to others.

[Imran Siddiqui]

tniem, I guess I can understand that.

However, I hope that you can understand WHY they didn't start the MP from the beginning. After all, Civ has always been known as a SP game, mostly, and that is how Firaxis has seen it. So, they wanted to get the SP done, and then work on the MP.

I do have faith in Firaxis, they haven't let me down. I know what you are talking about with other companies. Activision's treatment with respect to CtP2 was horrid, and other companies have the same attitude.

However, I hope that Firaxis will make you see that there are good guys in the business.

VetLegion: Yes, they were insults. And yes that is what the people that share your opinion seem like. Sorry...

[yin26]

So let's all see Imran for what he is: A guy 'crusading' for constructive comments by using (in his own words) insults.

Brilliant!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well, I don't see any constructive criticism, and simply broad generalizations and more than a few insults at Firaxis, so I'm insulting back. I jump right into the fray, not stay back.

And what was that about staying away from this thread Yin? Another lie you've told. Why am I not surprised .

[yin26]

As long as you admit your own hypocrisy, we are making progess.

[ColdWizard]

1. people post how great civ 3 will be
2. people post about things they don't like
3. optimists bash pessimists
4. pessimists bash optimists
5. goto #3

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yin: Now to admit yours (which will never ever happen, but are more numerous than mine shall ever be).

I have yet to see how you can have constructive comments towards destructive ones.