hard time for science oriented players

cort · October 14, 2001, 09:54

in the previous civ installments, after you increase the technological gap between you and your opponents above a certain limit, that was very hard for your foes to beat you (not mentioning AI) because you could produce more advanced units than they were capable of resisting..

however, considering the new resource system, things will not be the same again.. say you invent gunpowder but dont have access to saltpeter.. what you are going to do? try to gather it through trade.. but u know what; you are the first civ to discover gunpowder, therefore no other civ is producing saltpeter.. your new invention is useless..

wonder whether you will be able to see resource tiles in your opponents territories.. in that case at least you can try to capture the resource..

anyway.. playing the game will be stange..

Yoleus · October 14, 2001, 09:57

When you discover saltpeter, you start trading for maps... I think in this way you SHOULD see where to "grab" it...
And anyway, war is need-driven, like "you got something that I want"

Yoleus · October 14, 2001, 09:59

Or you can make friend with the biggest resource producer, trade science with him and then trade the resource...
How do you think the Arabs made their money?

Civ Dave · October 14, 2001, 10:00

It'll certainly make it more real....

like I found it od how Japan could always make everything in Civ2, even though they were on an island, cut off from EVERYTHING else....

I mean, how much crap is on that island anyways?

I think its one of the best ideas for Civ in a long time

Crouchback · October 14, 2001, 10:00

ICS

Well someone was going to mention it here so I'll be the first.

You only need one lot to supply the entire nation, so it will probably work out, but the competition for strategic resources is going to encourage people to spread out a bit making sure they've got a good chance of getting everything the need. As an alternative, the pure scientist could try trading gunpowder technology with a trusted (weaker) ally in the hope of securing a supply.

David

Yoleus · October 14, 2001, 10:01

The global answer is:
strategy!
Just science is not enough, you have to wage war, speak diplomacy and play on every chessboard you are given

Yoleus · October 14, 2001, 10:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Crouchback
You only need one lot to supply the entire nation, so it will probably work out, but the competition for strategic resources is going to encourage people to spread out a bit making sure they've got a good chance of getting everything the need. As an alternative, the pure scientist could try trading gunpowder technology with a trusted (weaker) ally in the hope of securing a supply.

I think we agree

cort · October 14, 2001, 10:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Crouchback
ICS

As an alternative, the pure scientist could try trading gunpowder technology with a trusted (weaker) ally in the hope of securing a supply.

David

problem is this; you can not know whether or not he will have saltpeter. you give the tech to a weaker ally and he has no saltpeter. whats worse, he trades the gunpowder to one of your foes who has saltpeter and he uses it against you..

personally, i NEVER trade science with other civs because (unlike reallife) you cannot control their relations with third party.

old dog · October 14, 2001, 10:58

I think that this improves the game immeasurably.

I had forgotten this, but back when I first started playing Civ 1, I assumed it was a good idea to explore and colonize. In time, I realized that the benefits were limited. After all, distant cities offered distinct disadvantages, but no real upside. Now, colonization will be worthwhile for the very realistic reason that you can gather resources. And the need to defend these far flung operations will add spice to military strategy.

As to your original point, cort, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. When I discover gunpowder, will I instantly see saltpeter on the land that I have already explored? Or will I need to reexamine that land? Will other civs be able to see the saltpeter that I can see? And what percentage of the saltpeter is immediately visible, and what percentage is discovered while working tiles? Gameplay depends on the answer to these questions.

But here's my guess. The game will still allow a technological strategy, but not an isolationist technological strategy. I know that some of my earliest wins were on islands far from everyone, where I just kept to myself and amassed a technological lead before beginning to interact with the world. I'll bet that that strategy will become ineffective... However, if my tech advantage becomes an advantage in knowing what areas to colonize, then this could add a major new theme to the game.

Jason Beaudoin · October 14, 2001, 11:11

Quote:

Originally posted by cort:
personally, i NEVER trade science with other civs because (unlike reallife) you cannot control their relations with third party.

How do you keep up with science on more difficult levels? (king and up) If various civilizations are trading techs and you're not, then you would fall behind right?

Quote:

Originally posted by cort:
say you invent gunpowder but dont have access to saltpeter.. what you are going to do? try to gather it through trade.. but u know what; you are the first civ to discover gunpowder, therefore no other civ is producing saltpeter.. your new invention is useless..

Well, that will be a strategic problem that you will have to solve when that time comes.

I mean, that is the name of the game... solving problems and being a leader.

Besides, that is only a variable, you probably would have saltpeter somewhere in your empire, unless of course your a weak civilization with few cities.

Inverse Icarus · October 14, 2001, 11:15

thats one of the major points of the game cort.

its not all about being advanced and rich, your land has much more of a strategic value. the only real strtegic value land had in civ2 was bottlenecks or mountain ranges for defence. now that island of deserts and swamps that nobody wants to colonize could yield just the resources you need.

cort · October 14, 2001, 11:21

for the most part, i think the new resource system is cool and will add to the gameplay a lot. However, i cannot understand why designers ignored the quantity issue.
The decision; "you can produce any number of ironclads provided that you have access to a single coal" doesnot seem to be realistic.
we have to wait and see but unless the resources are found REALLY scarse, this "one is enough" thing can make things very simple, destroying the whole idea..

Inverse Icarus · October 14, 2001, 11:23

firaxis confirmed long ago that there are at least 3 areas for each resource on every map, and i assume there will be more on larger maps.

Yoleus · October 14, 2001, 11:47

Jingo, can you please be more polite in your signature?

Executor · October 14, 2001, 11:49

Apolyton doesn't censor sigs?

cort · October 14, 2001, 12:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Jingo
firaxis confirmed long ago that there are at least 3 areas for each resource on every map, and i assume there will be more on larger maps.

my point is that; unless resources are scarse, it will be very likely that every civ will have access to most of the resources, devastating the new resource & trade & diplomacy thing.

more difficult the access to a particular resource, the more important that will be, be it horse or uranium..

Howling Chip · October 14, 2001, 12:34

Cort, I would guess that the "ignore quantity issue" was one of those Sid game play/fun vs realism decisions.

To make it quantity realistic they'd have to put a lot more resources out there so every one had access in their area, and maybe that really cluttered the map, ugly ugly ugly.

Or if they made it quantity realistic in terms of not every resource everywhere, they found that a guaranteed percentage of cultures always got wiped out very early in the game. Something like that, maybe.

cort · October 14, 2001, 12:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Howling Chip
Cort, I would guess that the "ignore quantity issue" was one of those Sid game play/fun vs realism decisions.

To make it quantity realistic they'd have to put a lot more resources out there so every one had access in their area, and maybe that really cluttered the map, ugly ugly ugly.

Or if they made it quantity realistic in terms of not every resource everywhere, they found that a guaranteed percentage of cultures always got wiped out very early in the game. Something like that, maybe.

i agree with you.. its clear that they give up the quantity issue to make a better gameplay..

after all, we have to trust this sid guy..

Lorizael · October 14, 2001, 12:55

The people that get gunpowder first will be the first ones to see the Saltpeter. So while they might not have the advantage at first, they'll still be the first to have the advantage of GUNS.

I certainly hope that not every civ will have access to Oil or horses or whetever. That will be the difference between Commercial and Militaristic civs. The Commercial one might trade for the Oil, but the Military oriented one would just TAKE IT.

That sid guy... must i remind you that SMIG!!!!

cort · October 14, 2001, 13:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Lorizael
The people that get gunpowder first will be the first ones to see the Saltpeter. So while they might not have the advantage at first, they'll still be the first to have the advantage of GUNS.

how?
i have discovered the gunpowder but I have no saltpeter..
i cannot trade cause no one knows about it. I know there is saltpeter around the world but its in the mainland of one of my foes.. cannot invade there cause im a science oriented civ, not spending much on military..

so, how shall i take advantage of guns? just continue to research.. discover metallurgy (cannons).. still no saltpeter?!

ps. not complaining actually.. the fun is to overcome these kind of situations..

Takeshi · October 14, 2001, 14:51

I remember Dan saying that ressources would come in "chunks" to certain areas, so that the likelyhood of a civilization getting access to all the ressources on its territory alone is very low.

Looks like OCC is going to be a lot trickier in Civ3.

(OCC = One City Challenge)

Simpson II · October 14, 2001, 18:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Takeshi
Looks like OCC is going to be a lot trickier in Civ3.

I disagree. Resources are primarily there for military purposes, and OCC is certainly not a military strategy. It may be necessary to bribe the odd unit when you can't build what you want, but not often. And the culture victory sounds just made for OCC.

Falconius · October 14, 2001, 19:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Cort
for the most part, i think the new resource system is cool and will add to the gameplay a lot. However, i cannot understand why designers ignored the quantity issue.
The decision; "you can produce any number of ironclads provided that you have access to a single coal" doesnot seem to be realistic.
we have to wait and see but unless the resources are found REALLY scarse, this "one is enough" thing can make things very simple, destroying the whole idea..

I agree. If what you say is true, I am very disappointed. Each resource access point should only contribute to the building of a set number of units. (Not necessarily one, but maybe ten or so).

Having one source give you the means of producing as many of that unit as you want negates the whole purpose of resources in the first place. What then, is the point of having them in the game?

I'm crossing my fingers that you are wrong! No offense intended.

BLackraven42 · October 14, 2001, 19:40

True this may make the game more difficult, but it will still make it more challenging. If you don't like then go back to Civ 2.

LaRusso · October 15, 2001, 03:25

cort, a very nice assumption indeed. it really looks like the game will be more strategy and less mouse clicking

October 15, 2001, 03:28

The Resourse system is probably one of the most exciting features in Civ3. I like the idea that you can be cruising along, building your perfectly rational, peace-loving, scientific/trading empire and suddenly you're f_cked because some resource is completely unavaible to you and so you must suddenly switch strategies. Kind of like real life when the US has oil problems.

Urban Ranger · October 15, 2001, 03:53

That's why it's also a good idea to have a high culture. The higher your culture, the bigger your border, and the more chances you have at finding new resources.

Dienstag · October 15, 2001, 04:16

One solution to the science vs military debate here is to play as the Germans...(which I probably would have done anyway)...since they have the Militaristic and Scientific bonuses. This might be enough of a bonus to smooth out the glitches of not having immediate access to resources.

I'm _really_ excited about exploring all the new strategies made possible by resources, culture, Civ bonuses and special units, and all the rest of the new gameplay features. Two more weeks!

Rakki · October 15, 2001, 05:49

people will be fighting to build roads to that little curanium mine deep in the mountains..... so they can stick a mining colony on it.. and also garrison it with military units !

cort · October 15, 2001, 05:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant
The Resourse system is probably one of the most exciting features in Civ3. I like the idea that you can be cruising along, building your perfectly rational, peace-loving, scientific/trading empire and suddenly you're f_cked because some resource is completely unavaible to you and so you must suddenly switch strategies. Kind of like real life when the US has oil problems.

so once upon a time US was a rational, peace loving empire?
ý didnot know that