Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Phoenicians and Dutch

[Alexander I]

Go right ahead. I don't have a lot of time either. Contributions are always welcome.

[Rasbelin]

I think we should get the Dutch into the EP.
They had an important role in the imperialism (Indonesian islands) and the development of trade (first stock exchange, etc).

I would prefer the Carthaginians, but the Phoenicians
are also good enough for me.

[Saint Marcus]

It's true that he was a 'great Dutch leader' but as I understand it, all Civ3's Great Leaders are supposed to be military men (generals and conquerors and stuff).

Hmmm. Didn't somebody say that Nixon was a Great Leader in the game, some time ago? Not sure though. But if only generals/admirals/etc are considered Great Leaders than byebye for Stuyvesant. sniff sniff

Fokker DX - one of the most used Finnish fighters
in the Winter War, but one of the worst ones too.
Was also able to carry a small load of bombs.

Of course it was bad when the Fins used it! The plane was 10 years old by that time They should have purchased the more modern (and probably the best aircraft at it's time) G.V.

One of the most famous Dutch warships of old is De Ruyter's flagship 'De Zeven Provinciën', a Ship-of-the-Line with 80 guns (1665-1694). If the name isn't already used in the game, I'd vote for simply Ship-of-the-Line (improvement over the man-of-war or frigate, whichever is in the game).

Possible, but the English already have an improved Frigate as CU. And the Spanish and English warships of the time were at par with the Dutch designs, as far as big warships are concerned that is. How about an improved Privateer called Kaper instead? Makes more sense I think, and goes well with the Golden Age.

[Dry]

Originally posted by Locutus
The southern provinces, which are now known as Belgium, was subsequently reigned by Spain, France, Austria, France again and the Netherlands until it finally became independent in 1839."

Wrong. We kicked the kaeskop's asses in 1830, not 1839.

[Locutus]

Mark L,
Nixon, a Great Leader? ROFL! Sorry, but for some reason I find that very funny. I had not heard that before but if that's true I suppose Stuyvesant could be a Dutch Great Leader (heck, if Nixon is a Great Leader, even Kok would qualify! ). Somehow I doubt it's true though...

Dry,
The Belgian Revolution started in 1830 but Belgium as an independent state was not recognized until 1839 (IIRC also the year in which King Leopold I was crowned).


Anyway, below is my (complete) version of Dutch history. Next I'll focus on the Phoenicians but I'll first allow everyone some time to b*tch and moan about this summary (and get some schoolwork out of the way)



"God created the world, but the Netherlands were created by the Dutch." Those are the words of a great French philosopher. He was talking about the continuous struggle in which the Netherlands have been involved ever since people started living there: the struggle against the sea. Half of what is now part of the Netherlands was once sea or a uninhabitable transition zone between land and sea. Originally the Dutch fought the sea by building large artificial hills ('terps') and building their houses on top of those. This method was already described by the Roman writer Pliny (the Old?) when he visited the Netherlands.

From about 1000 AD, the Dutch changed tactics and started to build dykes to keep the water out. This process contintues until today and culminated in two enormous projects in the 20th century. One was the closing off of the 'Zuiderzee' (South Sea) by means of the 'Afsluitdijk' (Closure Dyk) and empoldering a large part of the thus created lake ('IJsselmeer' or IJssel Lake) to create an entirely new province (Flevoland). The other project was called the Delta Works; it started after a catastrophic flood in Zeeland in 1953 and it's goal was to build dykes and dams along the fragile coast of Zeeland that were so big and strong that no storm or flood could ever break them. This project was finished in 1998? with the construction of a ultra-modern, movable dam ('Stormvloedkering') in the busiest waterway in the world ('Nieuwe Waterweg').

In ancient times, much of what is now the Netherlands was inhabited by the Frisians and the Batafs. It would be a long time before the Netherlands earned its place on the world map as a true civilization but these early tribes would play an important part in Dutch history. The resistance of the Batafs against Roman rule and the so-called 'Frisian Freedom', the Frisian values of freedom and independence, were the stuff that Dutch legends were made of and that inspired the Dutch throughout history.

For the most part the cities and provinces in the area known as the Low Countries developed independently from the 9th through the 14th centuries. The cities in the north and east, especially the ones along the river IJssel, over time became important members of the Hanseatic League. From 1363-1472 the area was gradually assimilated by Burgundian Dukes. Eventually the lands passed by marriage to the Hapsburg Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V. Upon Charles's abdication in 1556 the lands reverted to his son Philip II of Spain. The Calvinist Dutch in the northern provinces especially disliked the Spanish Catholics. They feared the Inquisition would be brought to the Netherlands and that personal, economic and religious freedom would be lost, so they revolted. In 1567 Spain sent an army to Brussels to crush the rebellion and thus started the bloody Eighty Years War. On April 1, 1572 the Dutch struck back: with a clever deception a navel force took the city of Den Briel, an event still celebrated as April Fool's Day in the Netherlands. The revolt quickly spread throughout the north. In 1572 the provinces of Holland and Zeeland acknowledged Willem van Oranje as their Stadtholder and a government was established in Delft.

In 1579 the predominantly Catholic southern regions of the Netherlands joined together for mutual protection under the Spanish king in the League of Arras (Atrecht/Atrois). Soon thereafter, the northern provinces united in the Union of Utrecht. The Calvinist northern provinces were collectively known as the United Provinces of the Netherlands or the Dutch Republic. These provinces were: Friesland (Frisia), Groningen, Overijssel, Holland, Gelderland, Utrecht and Zeeland (parts of Limburg and Brabant were later added to this). From the formation of the Union of Utrecht these provinces were able to remain a separate republic but it was not until the Treaty of Westphalia, at the conclusion of the Eighty Years War in 1648, that the independence of the Republic was finally recognized. The southern provinces, which are now known as Belgium (& Luxembourg), was subsequently reigned by Spain, France, Austria, France again and the Netherlands until it finally became independent in 1831.

The 17th century was the Golden Age for the Dutch. In this period the Netherlands became the most important nation in the world: whereas the rest of Europe went into economic decline, the Dutch economy and industry boomed, cities and the population expanded rapidly, a colonial empire was built and the arts and sciences flourished. The foundation for all this wealth and prosperity was already laid in earlier centuries by the Dutch Hanseatic League cities: both before and during the Golden Age, it was trade with the East Sea that formed the backbone of the Dutch ecomony. The Dutch transported wine, salt, spices and precious metals from France, Spain and Portugal to the Baltic area and brought back grain, iron, copper, wood, saltpeter, hemp, tar, etc. The grain from the Baltic allowed the Dutch population to almost double in less than a century. During the Golden Age, the ship building, construction and textile industries boomed. The East Sea trade, combined with trade with the Far East (spices, pepper, silk, cotton) and privateering and slave trade in the New World made Amsterdam the financial and commercial capital of the world.

During the Golden Age, the Netherlands established many colonies. Some would only be under Dutch rule for a few decades (New England, Brazil, Mauritius, Taiwan), others for centuries (Surinam, Dutch Antilles, Gold Coast, South Africa, Ceylon, Indonesia, Japan, Spitsbergen). The most striking thing of these colonies was that they were not owned or governed by the Dutch state: these colonies were the property of companies (VOC in the east, WIC in the west) and the governments of these colonies consisted entirely of employees of these companies and were hired rather than elected or appointed; statesmen, nobles or aristocrats had no say in this at all.

The Golden Age was also the cultural and scientific zenith of Dutch civilization. The most famous example of this are the painters: although there have been many famous Dutch painters before and after the Golden Age (Bosch, Van Gogh, Mondriaan, etc), there was a large concentration of them during this time (Rembrandt, Vermeer, Hals, Steen, Potter, etc). But other aspects of Dutch culture also reached an unprecedented height: literature (Vondel, Hooft, Huygens, Cats), philosophy (Spinoza), medicine (Van Leeuwenhoek) and science (Huygens, Snellius, Stevin, etc).

After 1700 the Golden Age ended as the international economic depression finally started to affect the Dutch economy while the French and English were already recovering. The Dutch empire soon went into decline, with the conquest of the Netherlands by Napeleon as lowpoint. At the convention of Vienna in 1815 the Netherlands regained their independence and became a kingdom. Although the times of the Golden Age would never return, the Netherlands would since then (especially after WWII) continue to be one among the most important nations of Europe and the world in terms of science, economy, culture and politics.

[August Borms]

Originally posted by Locutus

The Belgian Revolution started in 1830 but Belgium as an independent state was not recognized until 1839 (IIRC also the year in which King Leopold I was crowned).

Belgium declared independence on 4 oct 1830, and this was recognized by every important European nation. I don't know when exactly, but it must have been somewhere between oct 1830- july 1831 ( Leopold I was crowned king on 21 july 1831 )
Willem I didn't recognize Belgium's independence until 1839 though...

[Dry]

Originally posted by Assur


Belgium declared independence on 4 oct 1830, and this was recognized by every important European nation. I don't know when exactly, but it must have been somewhere between oct 1830- july 1831 ( Leopold I was crowned king on 21 july 1831 )
Willem I didn't recognize Belgium's independence until 1839 though...

100% right.
21th of july became our national day (although for personal convictions I would have prefered the independence day).

[Locutus]

Well, all the (Dutch and non-Dutch) sources I originally checked said 1839 but I did some further research and it would seem that a (albeit small) majority of the sources I could find mention 1830/1831. I'll gladly agree on changing it to 1831, if it makes people happy...

[Dry]

Originally posted by Locutus
Well, all the (Dutch and non-Dutch) sources I originally checked said 1839 but I did some further research and it would seem that a (albeit small) majority of the sources I could find mention 1830/1831. I'll gladly agree on changing it to 1831, if it makes people happy...

1839 for international recognition, but independence was effective since 1831 (with the help of France) and during the 1831/39 period more and more states recognized Belgium. I think (but I'm not sure) that Britain was the first country to recognize Belgium.
Here are 2 links (the 2nd seems more accurate).

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian.../87/histen.htm
http://www.stabi.hs-bremerhaven.de/g...bel183070.html

[Ribannah]

Wonders of the Dutch
Delta Works
Hunebeds
Karel ende Elegast (heroic epic)
Keukenhof
Kinderdike Mills
Nachtwacht
Tinbergen's Centraal Planbureau
VOC
Waterline

Edit: added two more

typical Dutch inventions in game terms
Printing Press (!)
Economics
The Corporation

[Locutus]

Dry, I'll gladly believe you on your word...

Originally posted by Ribannah
Printing Press (!)

Run for cover! Korea-fans incoming!

Another Dutch wonder: Legalization of Drugs

[Panzer]

Another Dutch wonder: Legalization of Drugs

Increases happiness by four per city, -50% shields (people are stoned most of the time) + increased pollution (from the manufacturing of drugs )

Karel ende Elegast (heroic epic)

I myself would have chosen 'Mariken van Nimwegen' or 'Van den vos Reinaerde'.

[History Guy]

Here's is the history of Phoenicia that I wrote that Locutus wanted me to post here. I'm also working on a Carthage history.

CAPITAL: Tyre
LEADERS: Hiram the Great (of Tyre), Hannibal Barca, or Hamilcar Barca
(both of Carthage). (f) Princess Dido of Tyre, Princess Jezebel of Tyre.
SPECIAL UNIT: A quinquireme, 5 decks of rowers, a nasty looking metal prow,
fit to sink any second class ship. Most dangerous thing on the Ancient
Mediterranean.
CITIES: (PHOENICIA) Tyre, Byblos, Sidon, Tripoli, Tarshish, Berytus,
Arwad, Zarephath, Jubeil, Acco, Ugarit, Ophir, Marisa, Shechem, Aradus,
Ashdod (COLONIES) (CYPRUS) Enkomi, Kition, Curium, Paphos, Amathus,
(RHODES) Lindos, (SICILY) Cossrya, Motya, Panormus, Lilybaeum, (MALTA) Melita,
(SARDINIA) Sulci, Olbia, Caralis, Nora, Bitia, Tharrus, (BALEARICS) Ebusus,
(SPAIN) Lucentum, Carthago Nova, Abdera, Toscanos, Malaca, Gades, (N.
AFRICA) Carthage, Utica, Leptis Magna, Djerba, Sabratha, Thapsus,
Hadrumetum, Hippo Repis, Rachgoun, Tingis, and
Lixus.

THE PHOENICIAN HISTORY. Though the coast of what is now
Lebanon has always been inhabited since as far as history has been recorded,
the earliest Phoenician city, Byblos (near present-day Beirut) was probably
first settled around 5000 BC by a group of weary individuals who claimed to
be “descendants of the Dorian Kings from Heracles”. Very early on the
Phoenicians seem to have been using their brains, for they created the first
Alphabet in history, the numerals of which were the basis for those of the
English language. By 2700 BC (around the time Tyre was taken over by
Phoenicia) Byblos was perhaps the greatest trade center on the
Mediterranean, they were the ones who, for example, sold cedar wood to the
Egyptians (who must have loved the smell, for they paid a bundle for it) who
in turn gave them papyrus, which the Phoenicians traded to Greece, who then
lovingly called all books ‘Byblos’, and so the word ‘Bible’ was born.

The greatest Phoenician city, Tyre (Tyrus in Latin or Zor in Hebrew, home to
Marinas, who designated the latitude-longitude lines, and Zeno the great
philosopher and founder of the Stoic School) was actually taken over by guys
from Byblos around 2700 BC, and by that time it was already a good sized city
(Herodotus claims it was built in the 28th Century), and at the same time the
third largest city in Phoenicia, Sidon was built. It had once been an ancient
burial ground, and among the tombs found in the area was that of the
Assyrian King Eshmunazar. However, all of these cities were un-unified city
states. Thus when the Babylonians attacked the Phoenicians were quickly
conquered. The Babylonians were kicked out by Egyptians in 1800 BC
(probably so they could get their cedar wood) who held it until 1400 BC when
they, in turn, were booted out of Phoenicia by the Phoenicians themselves,
sick and tired of Egyptian rule, and seeing an easy chance to revolt when the
Hittites made such nuisance that Egyptian armies in Phoenicia were called
away. The happier, independent Phoenicians then began to rebuild their
culture, forming a federation of the city-states in the fourth largest city of
Phoenicia, Tripoli. It was around 1100 BC when the Phoenicians emerged as a
truly great commercial and sea power.

Of all of their trade items, the purple dye which they made from crushed
murex shells was their most popular. In fact the word Phoenicia is
derived from the Greek word for ‘purple’. Other popular trade items included
brightly coloured glass beads and blue and yellow glass vases. Cedar wood
(and later cypress wood) were also popular trade items. When Tyre began it’s
colonization and expansion the slave trade became a smaller trade avenue,
and when the colonization reached North Africa ivory joined the list as well.
The naval might of Phoenicia also helped increase the trading, as the
Mediterranean was at Phoenicia’s golden age dominated by the powerful
quinquiremes and the smaller biremes.

King Hiram the Great (reign 969-936 BC) of Tyre, Phoenicia’s greatest ruler,
was an expansionist and a builder. One of the first things he accomplished
when he ascended to the throne of Tyre was to connect the city with the
island just a little way off the coast by filling in the sea between them, thus
expanding the city by a quarter. Tyre under his rule was on very good terms
with the Israelites during the reigns of both Kings David and Solomon (who
was even married to one of Hiram’s daughters), and even assisting in the
construction of Solomon’s temple in Jerusalem by sending architects and
cedar wood. Still later the hated King Ahab of Israel married King Motto of
Tyre’s daughter Jezebel (who is one of the most justly disliked people who
ever lived). Hiram also sent colonies to the islands of Cyprus, Crete, and
Rhodes, to Anatolia, Sicily, Corsica and Sardinia, the Balearic Islands,
Spain, and north Africa (founding Carthage).

Finally, in 574 BC, when it appeared that Phoenicia’s power could only escalate, something very unexpected happened, the Chaldean Empire of Nebuchadnezzar II (of Babylon) took Tyre in a 13 year siege. The Phoenicians then began offering child sacrifices to Baal and the rest of their menagerie of gods and goddesses in order to save the rest of their empire (which didn’t help their population rate), but this didn’t really help much as soon Babylon controlled all of Phoenicia. However, the might of Babylon was in it’s twilight years and they were destroyed by the new Persian empire under King Cyrus (and the dumber of Nebuchadnezzar’s successors).

About 200 years later, the more “Persianized” Phoenicians were in danger yet again. Persia had just been freshly squashed by the ancient world’s most powerful reprobate, Alexander the Great, King ofMacedonia, and now the little conqueror’s army was advancing towards the Phoenician coast. Byblos, Sidon, Tripoli, and Arwad all surrendered to big Al without a fight, but Tyre stood firm against him. Unable to storm Tyre, Alexander besieged it for the following 7 months, but to no avail. Loosing more men then he wished to, poor (angry) Alexander ordered that siege engines be brought up and his men to use them for the purposes for which they were constructed, and the city fell. Half the city was destroyed and the 30,000 residents were either massacred or sold as slaves, this truly was the end of the Phoenician empire (or at least the Phoenician part of the Phoenician empire...). Up until the coming of Alexander, despite every enemy take-over, Phoenicia had managed to retain the same religion, culture, and systems, but when the Greek war-machine took over everything changed. The “Phoenicians” became Greco-Hellenized, and when Rome took over in 64 BC, even the name ‘Phoenicia’ was erased.(As an interesting note, it was Phoenicia and her colonies in Sicily, Spain, Cyprus, and North Africa that were the first parts of the Roman Empire to become overwhelmingly Christian.)

Phoenicia’s most powerful (and most famous) colony was that of Carthage,
which existed in North Africa in what is now called Tunesia. King Hiram
ordered the building of Carthage near the older Phoenician city of Utica on
the Mediterranean coast. According to legend Carthage (or as it was actually
called by the Phoenicians, Kar-Hadasht) was built at the end of the 9th
Century BC as a trading post by Princess Dido. The legend is that the local
African ruler told her that she could claim as much land as an ox-hide could
cover. Dido, bright lady, ordered the hide to be cut into very thin strips so
that she could claim huge pieces of territory, using the strips as a border.


SPECIAL UNIT HISTORY: When the Babylonians and Egyptians were
kicked out in 1400 BC, the Phoenicians began re-assembling their
civilization, and one of the new additions was a great navy. The greatest
sailors of the ancient world, Phoenicians would be famous for, among other
things, the (alleged) circling by Admiral Hanno of the whole of the continent of Africa
in 600 BC. The powerful military vessels, greatest among which was the fast,
huge, and powerful quinquireme were constructed to subdue the inhabitants
of the countries which they then took over and colonized. The quinquireme
was long and tall, with 5 decks of rowers and huge, bronze prows at the bow
with which they could ram anything that got in their way!

[Rasbelin]

Thanks, History Guy!
Excellent work!
At least it looks promising to me.

[Ribannah]

I'm impressed!

[Locutus]

Well, History Guy, I had time to read through your text more carefully and I'm even more impressed than I was the first time, very good stuff

I can't come up with many comments but there are these minor issues:
* Maybe (just maybe) you want to consider adding somewhere that the Phoenicians, when under foreign (mainly Persian) rule, had a large degree of freedom and never really became part of the empires that ruled over them (until Alexander came along, that is). Their rulers needed them too much to suppress them so they were particularly kind to the Phoenicians, taxing them lightly and requesting help from their navy rather than forcing them to provide it. Comparable to the way the Greeks were treated by the Romans.
* Shame on you! So knowlegdeable about Phoenician history and yet you claim Carthage lies in present-day Morocco? Carthage (I personally prefer Carthago, the name used by the Romans and Greeks) lies in Tunesia of course, only a few miles from Tunis. They did have plenty of other colonies in Morocco (and Tunesia, Libya and Algeria) so the mistake is an understandable one.
* As much as I'd like to believe it myself, the claimed circumvention of Africa by Hanno is not backed up with any sort of evidence. Historians are actually divided on whether or not it actually happened (some believe Hanno only sailed to the Gold Coast, thought that was the 'bottom' of Africa and sailed back). It might not be wise to present it as a hard fact (just adding the word 'possibly', 'apparently' or 'allegedly' or whatever somewhere would be sufficient to make it historically 'correct' IMHO).

[History Guy]

Thanks for the compliments, Rasbelin, Ribannah, and Locutus. I edited the post to include those 3 points, thanks for bringing them up, Locutus. Right now I am working on Carthage, and am considering to write short bios of all the great leaders in the game, so that when you play Xerxes and the Persians you can read about how the Captain of the Guard got access to Xerxes' room late one night and assasinated him. ;-)

[Rasbelin]

Originally posted by Locutus

Carthage (I personally prefer Carthago, the name used by the Romans and Greeks) lies in Tunesia of course, only a few miles from Tunis.

I have even been almost in Carthage/Carthago,
but because of lack of proper knowledge of
public transportation in the Tunis region,
I never visited Carthage/Carthago.
So I have only been to Tunis.
But I have at least been close to it.

According to many who have been there,
there's not so much left to see in these days.
But that's thanks to the second Punic war.

[molly bloom]

A few interesting sites:

http://www.enn.com/yoto/dailynews/19...98/odyssey.asp

www.cedarland.org/phoenicia.html

www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/grvcrk.html

www.askwhy.co.uk/awmike/ac2/AmericaPhoen01.html

(perhaps a pinch of salt needed here)

[Trifna]

Shouldn't we put Vikings OR Dutch? If we are that specific, we should then be as specific with other civs and some would be divided I guess... Or is it that Scandinav countries and Dutch aren't as close as I thought culturally?

[Ribannah]

It is.

[siredgar]

I'm curious:
Did he do other things before arriving in New Amsterdam?

I know he was Governor of Curacao and drove the Swedes out of Delaware.

Thanks.

[Trifna]

Originally posted by Ribannah
It is.

Generally, I'm searching arguments Ribannah

I'm not so sure it is. I don't think tha puting every civilization we find we will get a Civ that's at its best...

[Fresno]

I think the leader of the Dutch should be Floris V, William the Silent or Johan van Oldebarnevelt. Personally, I would prefer the last one. A good female leader would be Kenau Hasselaar.

Further I think Hoogeveen isn't a good city to include concerning the province of Drenthe. It is historically totally unimportant. Till WOII, it was nothing but a village. Meppel would be a better city, since it is much older (it is also older as Assen) and it always was the center of trade of Drenthe, especially after the start of the peat industry. For a long time, Meppel and Coevorden were the only cities in Drenthe.

I understand some people don't like to merge the Flemish and the Dutch cities, since Belgium and the Netherlands are separate nations now. But I don't think the national border between the two should be regarded as a cultural border. On both sides people have the same language, the same religion and for a large part the same history. I read someone compared this situation with Spain and Portugal. Well, I think that's a different situation, because Spanish and Portuguese are two historically different peoples; the Flemings and the Dutch are historically the same people. There was a religious difference but things have changed since 1830. The difference between Flemings and Walloons is by now much bigger as the difference between catholic and protestant Dutch.

I think Flemish cities should be included in the list, because the Flemings and the Dutch have virtually the same culture and for a large part the same history.

Furthermore, it would be strange not to have any Flemish cities in the game. Flanders was both economically and culturally one of the most important regions in Europe once, and therefore the Flemish cities have to be in Civ3. Belgium is not going to make it as an independent civ, so this is the only way they have a change to be in the game.

[siredgar]

Originally posted by Locutus
Dry, I'll gladly believe you on your word...

Run for cover! Korea-fans incoming!

LOL, Locutus.



Yes, the Koreans invented the movable type at least two hundred years before Gutenberg. However, his invention had far more influence because the knowledge was shared. Anyhow, when most "Korea fans" discuss the significance of the Korean invention, it is not to take away from Gutenberg's claim to fame. Instead, it's primarily intended to get more attention for the often ignored, yet impressive Korean civilization.

[Fresno]

Is this thread dead already? Shame...

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by siredgar
Yes, the Koreans invented the movable type at least two hundred years before Gutenberg. However, his invention had far more influence because the knowledge was shared. Anyhow, when most "Korea fans" discuss the significance of the Korean invention, it is not to take away from Gutenberg's claim to fame. Instead, it's primarily intended to get more attention for the often ignored, yet impressive Korean civilization.

Gutenberg got the fame because an apprentice of Laurens Janszoon Coster, the Dutchman who invented the western version of the Printing Press, stole the invention and brought it to him.

[Beren]

I would make William the Silent Stadholder and not prince. For the Netherlands had stadholders as leaders. UU: Geus, some cheap draft unit.
We are forgetting one great leader:
Jan van Speyk. He blew up his ship in the war against the Belgians.

[Beren]

BTW: I think the Netherlands should be Ind/Com. They were not more expansionistic than other European powers and their tech level was not extremely high.

However, the Dutch religion: Calvinism, which greatly influenced the Dutch culture, encourages hard work. In Holland, it has become a tradition, a part of the culture. So that's why I think it should be Industruos.
I think I don't need to argue the Netherlands were commercial.

[Dry]

Originally posted by Beren
I think I don't need to argue the Netherlands were commercial.

Definition of a Dutchman:
Someone able to buy from a Jew, sell to a Scotsman and still make benefits.