Forbidden Palace - catch 22

[Ray K]

What is it with corruption? I race all of the way to the Republic in the ancient era and corruption is still killing me!

Unfortunately, the cities with the worst corruption are the ones least able to do anything about it. Since they produce only one "good" shield, it takes forever to build a courthouse or a Forbidden Palace. And after they're built, their effect is not that great.

I really need some help here. How do you build an early empire without being crippled by corruption?

[cort]

Originally posted by Ray K
What is it with corruption? I race all of the way to the Republic in the ancient era and corruption is still killing me!

Unfortunately, the cities with the worst corruption are the ones least able to do anything about it. Since they produce only a "good" shield, it's takes forever to build a courthouse or a Forbidden Palace. And after they're built, their effect is not that great.

I really need some help here. How do you build an early empire without being crippled by corruption?

I couldnot find any better solution than to play a Commercial civ..
next; expand your empire around your capital; but that mostly depends on the starting position..

[Ray K]

Originally posted by cort


I couldnot find any better solution than to play a Commercial civ..
next; expand your empire around your capital; but that mostly depends on the starting position..

Well, unless I am missing something obvious, this problem is bad enough to qualify as a legitimate bug.

I'd really like to know how the playtesters and game reviewers didn't notice this problem.

[Jason Beaudoin]

I think that corruption should be adjusted in relation to the size of the map. On a small map, or even a normal map, it wouldn't be a problem, but on these huge maps, which everyone seems to be playing on, it is.

I know that the next game I play on, it'll be on a normal size map with 8 players because you don't have to spend so much time and effort expanding. I want to get into the game without having to worry about breaking out in that rush for land.

[Ray K]

Originally posted by Jason Beaudoin
I think that corruption should be adjusted in relation to the size of the map. On a small map, or even a normal map, it wouldn't be a problem, but on these huge maps, which everyone seems to be playing on, it is.

Dude, I play only on Tiny maps. If your starting location is not centralized, then your 5 or 6th city loses at least 75% of its production, even if you're a republic.

[cort]

Originally posted by Jason Beaudoin
I think that corruption should be adjusted in relation to the size of the map. On a small map, or even a normal map, it wouldn't be a problem, but on these huge maps, which everyone seems to be playing on, it is.

I know that the next game I play on, it'll be on a normal size map with 8 players because you don't have to spend so much time and effort expanding. I want to get into the game without having to worry about breaking out in that rush for land.

same for me. one difference; i will use to editor so that 16 civs will be playable on normal sized maps..

[Grumbold]

Can the palace be moved like in previous versions? I'm not suggesting it is perfect, but you might be able to hop your palace over to nearer the problem area (in more than one stage depending on how many cities are intervening and their production rates) and get the courthouse/forbidden city done faster, then hop back again.

[Ray K]

Originally posted by Grumbold
Can the palace be moved like in previous versions? I'm not suggesting it is perfect, but you might be able to hop your palace over to nearer the problem area (in more than one stage depending on how many cities are intervening and their production rates) and get the courthouse/forbidden city done faster, then hop back again.

Another 'hack' solution is to build units in a 'good' city and disband them in your corrupt city to build the Courthouse and the Forbidden Palace.

Surely this was not the intended solution for the problem.

[player1]

I have an idea!
Since corruption depends from distance from capitol, what happens when you build ROADS to your new cities?
Does corruption (maybe) goes down?

Maybe Firaxis just typed "one 0" less

[Jared]

Nah. Roads don't help at all, although I hoped they would.

Like Ray K, I hurried to Republic in the hopes of helping with some of that corruption. No such luck.

It's KILLING me...I can't build anything at half my cities, some of them have as much as 90% corruption, resulting in a city with 10 population producing only 1 shield.

This is with a Forbidden Palace as close to the badly effected cities as possible, and The Republic.

[Robert Plomp]

I think it's one of the ways to solve the ICS problem.
Don't expand faster then you can mange.

It's exactly as with Civ2 at Deity level. Some people complain that you can never get your people satisfied.
In fact it's easy, but you need to know how.

The corruption thing shows that the game isn't easy !
You need to get used to it and to develop some strategies to avoid corruption that big !

Of course I speak without any civ3 experience (GRRRR EUROPE)
but hey, I have to do something while waiting for civ3

CS

[cort]

Originally posted by Jared
Nah. Roads don't help at all, although I hoped they would.

Like Ray K, I hurried to Republic in the hopes of helping with some of that corruption. No such luck.

It's KILLING me...I can't build anything at half my cities, some of them have as much as 90% corruption, resulting in a city with 10 population producing only 1 shield.

This is with a Forbidden Palace as close to the badly effected cities as possible, and The Republic.

oh well? thats incredible!
i am experiencing as well but not at that level..
at difficulty level 3, on a huge map with 16 civs, my farhest city (~20 tiles) is having %50 corruption, under monarchy. i am the french by the way. i believe being commercial lowers it. but even with the forbidden palace your corruption ratio is incredible. what is your difficulty level by the way?

[Jared]

Just playing on Chieftain.

[player1]

I have an thought. Maybe corruption depend from NUMER of cities and not only distance. So many players are trying to build as many cities as possibile wich, maybe, increases corrupion is other cities.

Anyway if corrupion is to high is some area, don't build other cities nearby, there is no point (you lose more in maintaince & units upkeep, then you get)

And I am not sure, what is an effect of Corthouse, exactly?
(in civ2 was -50% corrup.)

[Ray K]

Originally posted by CyberShy
I think it's one of the ways to solve the ICS problem.
Don't expand faster then you can mange.

It's exactly as with Civ2 at Deity level. Some people complain that you can never get your people satisfied.
In fact it's easy, but you need to know how.

The corruption thing shows that the game isn't easy !
You need to get used to it and to develop some strategies to avoid corruption that big !

Of course I speak without any civ3 experience (GRRRR EUROPE)
but hey, I have to do something while waiting for civ3

CS

Nothing personal, but why are you giving an uninformed opinion on a game you haven't played?

I played Civ1 and Civ2, and corruption in Civ3 is far worse now. There are governments that are supposed to help (Republic), and I've changed to it. I'm playing on a Tiny map with just 6-7 cities, so empire size is not the problem. There are improvements that reduce corruption (Courthouse, Forbidden Palace), but the corrupt cities can't really build them because they are only producing one shield/turn.

There are some weak kludges around the 'building' problem, like building and disbanding units or endlessly planting and cutting down forests, but I can't believe that the game designers intended corruption to be addressed this way.

This does not mean the game is hard. It means that the game is broken.

That is, unless someone who has actually PLAYED the game and gotten around the corruption problem can tell me what I'm doing wrong.

[cort]

cheiftein?!

no its not like in civ2. actually what a courthouse does is not clearly written anywhere..

well they have done a good job of explaining why an unhappy citizen is so -- you click on him and he says something like "%100 overpopulation"

i wonder why they didnot provide a similar thing for corruption..

[Ray K]

Originally posted by player1
I have an thought. Maybe corruption depend from NUMER of cities and not only distance. So many players are trying to build as many cities as possibile wich, maybe, increases corrupion is other cities.

That is the effect. If you build a new city or take one over, it becomes useless. If that's the point of the game, then what's the point of the whole game? Now I KNOW why all of those modern-era screenshots had all 7-8 still playing. It's NOT because the AI was improved, it's because they can't expand!

This problem actually encourages the ICS strategy because the only way to increase your production is the build cities as close as possible to your capital.

I personally do not feel like farting around with about 10 cities until I get Democracy or Communism.

[Robert Plomp]

Nothing personal, but why are you giving an uninformed opinion on a game you haven't played?

I'm sorry, but the opinion I gave has nothing to do with the fact if I played the game or not.
I compare complains people had with civ2 (deity - happy civilians) with civ3, and say that pherhaps this is something that Firaxis did to..........

why do I need to play the game for opinions like that ?

I played Civ1 and Civ2, and corruption in Civ3 is far worse now.

that's what I said.
It might be one of the anti-ICS moves.

That is, unless someone who has actually PLAYED the game and gotten around the corruption problem can tell me what I'm doing wrong

I can't tell you for a fact what you're doing wrong.
I can give you suggestions though.
Try the suggestion, and tell me if it works.
That's the only thing I can do right now, or do you want us europeans to shut up and keep silence for 2 weeks ?

I said I didn't play the game, why do you need to get angry at me ? Just try my suggestions, and tell me if I'm wrong.

Aaaaaaaaah, now I see it. You're another newbie that comes here and thinks that you're the civ master ! Welcome newbie ! Have a great time telling other people to shut up ! You'll be gone anyway in a few weeks if the next game has been released. (first person shooter or something)

CyberShy

[SerapisIV]

Is it possible to raise or lower the corruption rating in the editor?

Are there any king of corruption controls in the editor?

This might be a solution.

[Ray K]

Originally posted by CyberShy


I'm sorry, but the opinion I gave has nothing to do with the fact if I played the game or not.
I compare complains people had with civ2 (deity - happy civilians) with civ3, and say that pherhaps this is something that Firaxis did to..........

why do I need to play the game for opinions like that ?

that's what I said.
It might be one of the anti-ICS moves.

This is not Civ2. I have played Civ1 and Civ2 and this problem is far worse.

You offered a uninformed opinion and I pointed that out. When I asked for help with a solution, there was an implication that you have to have experienced the problem (i.e. played Civ3) before you solved it.

This problem could actually encourage ICS because it forces you to built cities as closely as possible to your capital.

I can't tell you for a fact what you're doing wrong.

Then why post? Go practice your typing skills on someone else.

I can give you suggestions though.
Try the suggestion, and tell me if it works.
That's the only thing I can do right now, or do you want us europeans to shut up and keep silence for 2 weeks ?

Your suggestion - don't expand?!?

Please rethink your suggestion within the context of a game in which the goal is to build an empire and take over the world. Then get back with me on that "suggestion"

I said I didn't play the game, why do you need to get angry at me ? Just try my suggestions, and tell me if I'm wrong.

Aaaaaaaaah, now I see it. You're another newbie that comes here and thinks that you're the civ master ! Welcome newbie ! Have a great time telling other people to shut up ! You'll be gone anyway in a few weeks if the next game has been released. (first person shooter or something)

CyberShy

aaahhhhhh, now I get it. You haven't played the game yet but still have a compulsive urge to talk about it even though you have no clue about gameplay problems (for obvious reasons). And then when it's pointed out, you get defensive and start name-calling.

Since you have just called a Civ1 veteran a newbie, here's one for you: idiot.

By the way, that was an insult. Sometimes idiots don't pick up on that right away, so I thought I'd help you out there.

[Tnylr]

I have to say that corruption is absolutely out of control.
I'm playing the Iroquois at Regent on a Standard map.

I'm in a DEMOCRACY in the 3rd age.

I have 30 cities, most on the same continent, as tightly packed as possible.

The most distant cities (some at size 12) from the Palaces are at the 1 shield/1 trade corruption level.

Let me say again, I'm in a DEMOCRACY (at peace with everyone- I just got 8 or the cities by 'absorbing' the Americans.)

I've tried Courthouses- they appear to give me 1 or two more shields from the 1 shield normal (out of a potential 15 shields production.) I don't remember for sure, but I think the increase in trade was similar. So they make completely useless production all but useless.

Forcing a 'We Love the King' day gave 3-4 more shields and no increase in trade.

The Palace and Forbidden Palace only seem decently effective for the home cities and the immediately adjacent cities.

My next two things to try are:
Communism
Getting rid of a city, I have a bad feeling that corruption for 29 cities is going to be quite a bit more managable.

[Pembleton]

I believe I may have discovered a pattern but this is only after 1 game so I could be wrong.

But after fighting wars with 2 civs I noticed that the cities with the most corruption happen to be the ones with FOREIGN citizens. Yes, each face corresponds to a nationality. The more you have of a different nationality, the more corruption there is.

I moved the palace to a different location and I noticed that a city near it still had a ton of corruption but a city farther away that was one of my original cities that is entirely made of citizes of my nationality increased its corruption by only 1 shield after having none.

EDIT:

Actually, never mind, my theory could be wrong....I just double checked a save game. Oh well..

[iNMazer]

This problem totally ruins the game-experience for me I'm not going to play civ3 anymore untill this "bug" is fixed

Can't believe they didn't catch this one in the beta testing though...

[Deathray]

Firstly, just because someone hasn't played the game yet doesn't mean they can't make suggestions, be nice. Secondly, it may be that these cities with corruption are being influenced by other civilization's culture. Either they are in the process of being absorbed, or they contain foreign nationals or even rebels. That is my theory.

[Pembleton]

Originally posted by Deathray
Firstly, just because someone hasn't played the game yet doesn't mean they can't make suggestions, be nice. Secondly, it may be that these cities with corruption are being influenced by other civilization's culture. Either they are in the process of being absorbed, or they contain foreign nationals or even rebels. That is my theory.

Actually I did some more checking and I noticed that cities that have more culture tend to have less corruption. I'm going to continue my "analysis" of my cities in my latest save...

So this is why I falsely thought that cities that had more foreign citizens had more corruption because they are usually the ones that were just conquered, and thus the culture becomes 0. All of the culture within a city that was gained over time gets lost during a takeover, although I don't know if this the case with a city that is absorbed by culture instead of militarily.

[Spatzimaus]

The solution is simple: USE A LEADER. Take your first leader, move him in whatever direction you plan on expanding, find a city there that has almost total corruption, and force production. It may seem to be a waste to use him on a Small Wonder, but you'll get twice as much money/shields in the long run (when you're getting 200+ gold each turn and can just buy all your improvements, you'll thank me).

And yes, map size makes all the difference. On a Tiny map, a city 8 squares away from my capital had total corruption under Republic (9 out of 10 shields lost). It wasn't until I went Democracy and built a Courthouse that it even became bearable there, and even then it was 75% lost.

On my Huge game, on the other hand, I conquered an enemy capital a good 20 squares away and still only had 50% corruption under Republic.

[player1]

The question is: Does building a new cities incereases corruption in existing cities. I propose for someone to do a test:
When you have a 10 cities, build 3 settler and move them on new city locations. Than check corruption in your existing cities. After that, build 3 new cities in the same turn. Than, in the next turn check corruption in existing (older) cities. IS IT BIGER OR NOT (corruption).

If it is, than you should probably STOP expaning after you achive some OPTIMAL number of cities (when new cities just give you nothing & older become more corrupt, counterproductive expansion)


If not, this whole issuse IS ONE BIG FAT BUG.

P.S. Where in editor can be modified abilities of Corthouse? (if can at all)

[Jared]

Originally posted by Spatzimaus
The solution is simple: USE A LEADER. Take your first leader, move him in whatever direction you plan on expanding, find a city there that has almost total corruption, and force production. It may seem to be a waste to use him on a Small Wonder, but you'll get twice as much money/shields in the long run (when you're getting 200+ gold each turn and can just buy all your improvements, you'll thank me).

And yes, map size makes all the difference. On a Tiny map, a city 8 squares away from my capital had total corruption under Republic (9 out of 10 shields lost). It wasn't until I went Democracy and built a Courthouse that it even became bearable there, and even then it was 75% lost.

On my Huge game, on the other hand, I conquered an enemy capital a good 20 squares away and still only had 50% corruption under Republic.

Not to sound like an idiot...but what's the easiest way to develop your first leader?

Also, what construction do you force with the leader? My experience has been that even having a courthouse in the corrupt city helps only very marginally.

Thanks for the advice!

[Ray K]

Originally posted by Spatzimaus
The solution is simple: USE A LEADER. Take your first leader, move him in whatever direction you plan on expanding, find a city there that has almost total corruption, and force production. It may seem to be a waste to use him on a Small Wonder, but you'll get twice as much money/shields in the long run (when you're getting 200+ gold each turn and can just buy all your improvements, you'll thank me).

And yes, map size makes all the difference. On a Tiny map, a city 8 squares away from my capital had total corruption under Republic (9 out of 10 shields lost). It wasn't until I went Democracy and built a Courthouse that it even became bearable there, and even then it was 75% lost.

On my Huge game, on the other hand, I conquered an enemy capital a good 20 squares away and still only had 50% corruption under Republic.

Interesting observations from the last several posters. Thanks!

#1. It seems that the corruption distance scales according to the map size. Tiny maps are the worst!

#2. Democracies and courthouses really don't help as much as they imply in the guide.

#3. Culture may help, but corrupt cities cannot easily build the necessary improvement without a leader -- and those are awfully hard to come by.

#4. The opinions of people that have played the game are much more informative.

#5. This bug is ruining other people's enjoyment of the game as well. Sounds like it's time for a mod.

[Yossarian]

double post, sorry. hmm you can't delete your own posts?