Which civ was the most powerful in all history?

[Rosacrux]

Ishmael, Wulfram et al, to stop this rubish here before it gets to widespread:

- Alexander was Greek. The macedonian kingdom was greek. Macedonians belong to a Greek branch and they actually derive from the same branch that gave us the Pelloponesians (the Spartans, you might have heard them) namely the Dorian.

The southern Greeks didn't held them much in terms of respect, but that was due to their regime (they had monarchy and Greeks absolutely despised monarchy) and not their ancestry.

the absolute proof about the Macedonian Greeknes (SIC!) is that they spoke Greek and they participated in the ancient Olympics (reserved only for Greeks).

Ok, in the actual question, there is no such thing as "most powerful" civilization. If you take into account the military might of a single empire, well Rome wins hands down.

If you talk about land masse and population, it's a close one between China and the Brits.

If you talk about culture and influence it's definitely Greece.

Pick what suits you

[Wulfram]

Tell that to someone from the Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia, but get ready to duck when they try to punch you. The reason why they have that Former Yugoslav bit is to make the point that they are not Greek. Alexander was not Greek, he would not have seen himself as Greek and no one in Greece would have seen him as Greek. The monarchy bit is pretty inaccurate as well, seeing as many acknowledged greeks (such as the Spartans) were ruled by a Monarchy.

[History Guy]

OK OK Wulfram, the Greeks wouldn't have regarded that reprobate Alexander a Greek, and he wouldn't have regarded himself as Greek, either, but face it, the historians and scholars of the ages have always considered him to be one of the great Greeks, so that's what he is. Personally, it doesn't matter what he was to me, a Macedonian Greek or an invader, I still don't like him either way.

[Saint Marcus]

so many people voting for the usa. lol. sure, a lot more powerful than the British Empire used to me, right?

[jasev]

"Thus, thinking he was sended by the divinity to be everybody's arbytrator and to unite them, he wished everybody to look the whole world as an united country; people shouldn't make differences between greeks and barbarians because their weapons or dresses; people shold look at every good men as a greek and every malefactor as a barbarian"

Plutarco, "Life of Alexander" (freely and bad translated by my humbly person)

Alexander though himself as a greek (my god, he recieved his education from Aristoteles); his empire was based on greek culture ("Helenistic" means "Greek") and everybody has considered them as greeks since then.

Yes, there are a Macedonian Republic and his inhabitants reject to be greeks, but we should note that today's Macedonia has little to do with former Macedonia. The ancient Macedonia was culturally greek, mostly because it was the only culture near.

[ranskaldan]

Alexander was taught by Aristotle and actively emulated the Greeks. He thought of himself as the king of the Greeks. When he conquered Egypt and Syria, they were Hellenized.

The "Former Yugoslav" was not added by the modern Macedonians. It was added on request by Greece. The Greeks felt that they had first rights to the name Macedonia (because it was Greek in classical times). The Greeks themselves still have three administrative regions called Western, Central, and Eastern Macedonia. They felt it wasn't right for a Slavic name to call themselves Macedonia, so they requested (demanded) that in order for Macedonia to join the UN, they must add the "Former Yugoslav Republic" to their name.

[Wulfram]

Alexander emulated the Greeks and admired their culture, and wanted to be a Greek but wasn't, but was not a Greek, he was Macedonian.

[Ecthy]

I have been taught that the Poles were and still are the most powerful civilizaiton ever. Don't you just see they rule us all?

[ranskaldan]

Alexander emulated the Greeks and admired their culture, and wanted to be a Greek but wasn't, but was not a Greek, he was Macedonian.

During that historical period, the Greeks did not consider Alexander to be Greek, but Alexander did consider himself to be Greek.

By the time he reigned, Macedonia was indeed an integral part of Greek culture just as Rhodes, Cyrene or Syracuse. Maybe not the center (Athens or Sparta), but at least a peripheral part of Greater Greece. Macedonians spoke Greek and worshipped Greek gods. What more can you ask for?

(The modern Macedonians, however, are Slavic.)

[tleilaxu]

Originally posted by molly bloom



Actually, while they may have had the largest continuous land-based empire, the Mongols lose out in terms of size of territory to the British.
Also, to imply that all that saved the Japanese from the Mongols was bad weather, is to focus only on the first Mongol-led invasion of Japan. The second attempt met prepared Japanese resistance, and not just a 'Divine Wind'.
The Mongols were not noted for their sea-borne prowess as a cursory glance at their battles would show you.

The Mongols didn't conquer Japan because the Koreans were incompetant sailors (Or one could say the Koreans didn't want to help the Mongols so they did a bad job on purpose)

Come on people!! TANG CHINA was, relative to the other powers of the time, the most powerful nation ever. They had cities with millions of people... Cordoba had 20,000!

It is obviously China. One hundred years from now it'll be China again... the US is top dog because every dog has its day but America's power is transient...

[YefeiPi]

I totally agree. Tang China was not just flourishing in population, its arts, culture, military and science totally dominated. At that time, all neighbouring civs such as persian kingdoms had to pay annual tribute to the Chinese emperor to avoid being crushed. In my opinion, there is no other civ that even comes remotely close to China in terms of influence, longevity, or achievement.

[molly bloom]

Divine winds and stone walls:

www.ualberta.ca/~chor/MONGOLIN.HTM

www.umiacs.umd.edu/~kuijt/dba154/dba154.html

www.gosho.net/Nichiren/Gosho/bk_MongolEnvoys.htm

baatar.freeyellow.com/monkarhot.html

[Felch]

Tang China was very powerful for its time, in fact it was probably more powerful in relative terms than the United States is today. But the US today is incredibly powerful. Our pop culture (not really art) military and science dominate the world. And not just neighbouring countries, but just about every country has to pay us tribute, in the form of trade agreements that bring huge profits to American companies while exploiting undeveloped countries.

Furthermore, the United States is able to extend its power anywhere in the globe, very easily. The problem with this question is that power has always grown throughout history. For example, the Holland of today is far more wealthy and powerful than the 17th century Holland, but it is less influential in world affairs because the rest of the world has grown very quickly along with it. Same holds true for the UK, or China, or most other countries. It's not a matter of how powerful you are, it's a matter of when you're that powerful.

So basically the US is the most powerful in all history, if you take it at its height vs. any of these other civilizations at their height.

[Lung]

As the original troublemaker in creating this thread, i think it's time i gave my dubious opinion

As maligned as the Yanks are, there's no question of them being a worthy civ. The USA may not have been a dominant force for long, but hey, they're not dead yet! As powerful as the USA is, their power is not likely to diminish anytime soon, and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. In fact, their power is likely to increase significantly with Bush's apparent militarisation of space. Look forward to another 100 years of unmatched military supremacy, not to mention McDonalds I think 1000 years from now, the USA will still figure prominently.

Most powerful military - Romans by a mile. 300+ years of total dominance.

Most longevity - China.

Most cultural influence - Greece and English.

Worthy mentions - Mongols, Spanish, Russians, Vikings, Persians, Egyptians, USA.

Finally, i must say that my decision to include the Spanish has been vindicated, coming in at about fifth so far. Unfortunately, there wasn't enough room to include the Mongols or Vikings, hence the "other" option. Also, it was good to see no complaints about the absence of Zulus and Iroquois

[ginzuishou]

My choices are Greece, England/France/Germany/Italy and the USA for the following reasons.

The Greeks gave us Hellenism which, along with Christianity have been the two largest ideological shaping factors in Western History. The English, French, German and Italian peoples for establishing the Medieval, Renaissance (pretty much just Italy) and the Modern era (minus Italy from Modern contributions, France is especially important here). The USA for giving us the Postmodern world, one which may last for a few centuries still (just like Moderninity, so too may Postmoderninity continue in strength for some time).

Since I love ideas/philosophy and such, my choices are based on that criterion. I know little of China, India and other Eastern nations so I can’t accurately include them in my choices.

Someone mentioned that England invented Democracy or something like this in a prior post… where does this come from? It was the Athenian’s who established a representative assembly for the first time in History (I hope, for my sake). It’s the USA’s Constitution that set the groundwork for all Modern democracies since minus those that are a part of the British Common Wealth. Of course, many rightfully say that figures such as Jefferson relied heavily on European idea’s to draft their constitution, however, the proof is in the pudding. Their system worked so in many ways they can be credited a great deal for democracies current success in that they proved it could be done in the Modern era.

[Serb]

If you talk about land masse and population, it's a close one between China and the Brits.


Don't you guys know that the LARGEST country in the world in all human history is RUSSIA. (1/6- off all land mass)
We are protect Europe from Mongols- when you construct your university's, we fight against them and finaly wipe them out from our lands. If They wasn't stopt by us, all your entire Europe civilization was different from modern, and BTW we fight German knights at the same time and defeat them too.
Napoleon- the second greatest conquer of the world attacks Russia in 1812, in 1813 his mighty army was complitly destroyed and our cossacks standing in Paris.
Hitler attacks Russia in 1941. It takes five long years for us to destroy him and save the world again. This war takes 30 000.000 lives of our soldiers- 30 millions!!!! What's your casulities in this war -300.000 we are loose the same only during Berlin's offense. When our armies fight aganst nazi, USA seating behind the ocean, and only when fashists were doomed USA start invasion in Normandy in 1944, after six year from start of WW2 and less then one year before the war was ended. They made it to steal the spoils of war.
It is not the full list of our military victory's but just think about it- 3 of the most dangerous conquers was defeated by us- isnt it the proof that we are great military nation?
I do not want to describe our cultural influence, and genius russian sientists who make brilliant inventions in all fields of sience, becouse you do not want to understand it.
Russia- is the largest, one off the oldest and one of the greatest civilizations in the human history. It's a shame that no one of you don't even mention it.

[MOBIUS]

Two posts in and it's the usual uber patriotic chest thumping from the good ol' US of A...

No wonder people from around the world get pissed off with US arrogance all the time...

My take on a 'civilisation' is something with a distinct cultural identity...

The US doesn't even have it's own language for Pete's sake. The only thing distinct about American culture is fast food and convenience - so in terms of the all-pervasive nature of Coca Cola and MacDonalds, perhaps you are the most powerful...

The US was originally just a bunch of British colonials, you will always be in the shadow of the UK in that regard - however much you try to emulate British Imperialism of the past...

As for military power, without nuclear weapons, could you invade and capture say Russia or China - or even France...

Your biggest military achievement in the last thirty years? Beating some 3rd World desert country with less than a tenth of the population of the US... WooHoo...

And you needed help...

But then, you did manage to take Panama and Grenada all on your ownsome - my god I'm impressed!

Now you're trashing a mountainous 3rd World country with less than a tenth of the population of the US - ooh you big powerful men you...

And you can't even do that properly, you need your Northern Alliance mercenary army to do the actual legwork for you...

Now it looks like they might disobey US orders not to attack Kabul - the 'World's most powerful ever nation' can't even control a bunch of 3rd world irregulars with museum-piece equipment...

All we've seen so far is one limited US ground assault. Why only one huh? The rumour I heard is that even that ran into an ambush and heavy counter attack - that's why those helicopters got damaged and lost their undercarriage! So that's why another attack hasn't been launched - a bunch of crazy Afghans sent the 'World's most powerful ever nation' running with their tail between their legs...

The US may have the most powerful armed forces in the world, but it doesn't seem to have the stomach for a real fight where they might actually get hurt themselves...

I guess I'd be scared too after all those Somali tribesmen, and explosive dinghies and vans etc...

The most dangerous thing you could ever muster against most of us is a hotdog and a crappy hollywood movie - death by American 'Culture' (I use that term loosely!)...

Now that is scary!







On topic now...

My pick is the Romans

To which you say 'What have the Romans ever given us?'

And I say 'Roads, Aqueducts, Hospitals, language etc...'

Seriously though, that was an Empire that was militarily far more powerful than anything else at the time - and had the cojones to prove it! In one form or another it lasted for well over 1,000 years until Constantinople was finally conquered by the Turks.

The only thing that really held them back was speed of transport and communications! Power projection and logistics are just a tad difficult when there's no satellite comms or radio and when your fastest transport is a horse which would still take weeksof non-stop all day riding just to get from one end of the Empire to the other...!

Now that is power!

Relatively speaking of course!

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Seriously though, that was an Empire that was militarily far more powerful than anything else at the time - and had the cojones to prove it!

A most definitive statement. It sounds so much stronger that way. I liked it.

[ginzuishou]

Russia- is the largest, one off the oldest and one of the greatest civilizations in the human history. It's a shame that no one of you don't even mention it.

I've respected Russia since way back when from high school when I did a history project on them but for me there's not much action happening there ideologically. Russia hasn't really contributed all to much in that respect, to Western History. Communism, after all, was a German invention. Also, one of Russia's biggest problems is having history's greatest monster as one of their leaders. Stalin, through various means, killed approximately 50 million (yes, 50 MILLION) of his own people! That's a really huge hurdle to have to overcome.

[knott]

It is England, dominated the world between 1700 and 1900, my next chooses would be Romans (cant ignore them) and Germany (the German 19 century culture is unmatched)

[red_ishmael]

In all my Greek talk i forgot the most obvious race of all time. Australian civilisation is by far the best!!
You listen to that ruskie blabing on about 30 000 000 killed and thats all great, Australia sent 40% of its men to world war 1 and of those we had a 65% casualty rate... meaniong we lost about 30% of our Male population, and that was just to help out the Brits in a war that didnt even threaten us!
World War 2 was just as bad with us trying to hold off the Japanese by ourselves, abandoned by the Brits who wanted us in North Africa. It took the Yanks until 1941 to decide to help us out, thanks a lot, and even then they fought in Europe first!
So as you can see it has been Australian Bravery that has shaped the last century, our democratic system is by far the best in the world, our crime rate is very low and we have no "rogue states"after us... Plus we can drink more than anyother nation on the planet, and everyone loves our accent.

[molly bloom]

What I have found intriguing in the posts about the influence of cultures/civilzations is the attitude of some posters towards countries such as the United States; if they don't focus on the lack of longevity, then they criticize it for being a 'hybrid' culture. Does anyone now seriously believe that any culture, country or civilzation can now, or has ever, existed in some bizarre hermetically sealed environment, immune to any or all outside influences?

Didn't work for the Khmer Rouge, didn't work for Tokugawa Shogunate Japan, hasn't worked for the Taliban...what kind of culture or civilization do people expect to exist in the future, especially given the large numbers of refugees, enforced population migrations, and so on? If one looks at the Western European civilizations, our mathematics stems from India via Arab traders and philosophers. Our alphabet is Semitic in origin. The English language, a world lingua franca, is replete with loan words from other civilizations and countries, either transmuted: bungalow, pyjama, tea, or borrowed whole: elan, Weltschmerz, masala, pianissimo, or hybridized: television. Christianity is based on an earlier Judaic foundation, we wear jeans made of material named after a French city, popularized by an American, dyed with indigo from Central and South America, a majority of the world's major food items (potatoes, sweet potatoes, peanuts, maize, cassava, chillis, tomatoes) come from Central and South American origins, our favourite drinks are tea originating from China, coffee originating from either the Yemen or Ethiopia...

The moment we start to trade, to look beyond the borders of our polis, to start to wonder about the world, to desire new flavours, sensations, we cease to exist in some ideal state of cultural purity. Is America eligible for inclusion in Civ III? Those who support the inclusion of the Aztecs and the Incas might care to check the start and end dates of those civilizations, although you could make a point that they are there to represent Andean and Central American civilizations as a whole; but we are having this discussion courtesy of a telecommunications network originated by an American, albeit of Scottish origins, on machines with programs manufactured by American firms, concerning a game thought up by an American. We wear Levi jeans, drink Coca Cola (or Pepsi, or Bud, or Dr. Pepper) take Kodak photos, drive Ford motor cars, watch Hollywood films, read American novels or comic books, or newspapers, watch CNN....it might not be what people would like to think of as civilization, but in its own way it influences and is as sought after as Chinese porcelain, silk, the ruff, tea, tulips, coffee, chocolate, nutmeg, cloves, amber, the latest instalment of 'The Old Curiousity Shop' a Haydn concerto....

[Serb]

Plus we can drink more than anyother nation on the planet, and everyone loves our accent.

Then come to Russia and we will drink together for the glory of our great nations.
It's funny, most of folks here in Russia is think that no one can compare whith us in drinking, becouse to drink is our tradition, sport and the way of life. It is great pleasure of mine to know that we are all mistaken and you can drink better then we are.

[genghisvick]

No Empire/Nation other then the Romans has come close to the dominance the United States has on the world. Every country that exists has been penetrated by our culture and values. We have the greatest war potential of any nation that ever existed and we are a free nation were the people have a say.

[genghisvick]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Two posts in and it's the usual uber patriotic chest thumping from the good ol' US of A...

No wonder people from around the world get pissed off with US arrogance all the time...

My take on a 'civilisation' is something with a distinct cultural identity...

The US doesn't even have it's own language for Pete's sake. The only thing distinct about American culture is fast food and convenience - so in terms of the all-pervasive nature of Coca Cola and MacDonalds, perhaps you are the most powerful...

The US was originally just a bunch of British colonials, you will always be in the shadow of the UK in that regard - however much you try to emulate British Imperialism of the past...

As for military power, without nuclear weapons, could you invade and capture say Russia or China - or even France...

Your biggest military achievement in the last thirty years? Beating some 3rd World desert country with less than a tenth of the population of the US... WooHoo...

And you needed help...

But then, you did manage to take Panama and Grenada all on your ownsome - my god I'm impressed!

Now you're trashing a mountainous 3rd World country with less than a tenth of the population of the US - ooh you big powerful men you...

And you can't even do that properly, you need your Northern Alliance mercenary army to do the actual legwork for you...

Now it looks like they might disobey US orders not to attack Kabul - the 'World's most powerful ever nation' can't even control a bunch of 3rd world irregulars with museum-piece equipment...

All we've seen so far is one limited US ground assault. Why only one huh? The rumour I heard is that even that ran into an ambush and heavy counter attack - that's why those helicopters got damaged and lost their undercarriage! So that's why another attack hasn't been launched - a bunch of crazy Afghans sent the 'World's most powerful ever nation' running with their tail between their legs...

The US may have the most powerful armed forces in the world, but it doesn't seem to have the stomach for a real fight where they might actually get hurt themselves...

I guess I'd be scared too after all those Somali tribesmen, and explosive dinghies and vans etc...

The most dangerous thing you could ever muster against most of us is a hotdog and a crappy hollywood movie - death by American 'Culture' (I use that term loosely!)...

Now that is scary!

I always see England going along with every move the US makes. You have gone from being the most powerful empire on earth to a mere virtual province of the U.S.

I guess I would be jealous as well if I was in your shoes

[genghisvick]

Originally posted by Serb
If you talk about land masse and population, it's a close one between China and the Brits.


Don't you guys know that the LARGEST country in the world in all human history is RUSSIA. (1/6- off all land mass)
We are protect Europe from Mongols- when you construct your university's, we fight against them and finaly wipe them out from our lands. If They wasn't stopt by us, all your entire Europe civilization was different from modern, and BTW we fight German knights at the same time and defeat them too.
Napoleon- the second greatest conquer of the world attacks Russia in 1812, in 1813 his mighty army was complitly destroyed and our cossacks standing in Paris.
Hitler attacks Russia in 1941. It takes five long years for us to destroy him and save the world again. This war takes 30 000.000 lives of our soldiers- 30 millions!!!! What's your casulities in this war -300.000 we are loose the same only during Berlin's offense. When our armies fight aganst nazi, USA seating behind the ocean, and only when fashists were doomed USA start invasion in Normandy in 1944, after six year from start of WW2 and less then one year before the war was ended. They made it to steal the spoils of war.
It is not the full list of our military victory's but just think about it- 3 of the most dangerous conquers was defeated by us- isnt it the proof that we are great military nation?
I do not want to describe our cultural influence, and genius russian sientists who make brilliant inventions in all fields of sience, becouse you do not want to understand it.
Russia- is the largest, one off the oldest and one of the greatest civilizations in the human history. It's a shame that no one of you don't even mention it.

I am American but I agree that Russia is one of the most unappreciated Countries ever. You have contributed much to civilization in general but get very little recognition.

[Sun Zi 36]

"What I have found intriguing in the posts about the influence of cultures/civilzations is the attitude of some posters towards countries such as the United States; if they don't focus on the lack of longevity, then they criticize it for being a 'hybrid' culture. Does anyone now seriously believe that any culture, country or civilzation can now, or has ever, existed in some bizarre hermetically sealed environment, immune to any or all outside influences?"

Um... yea, maybe they criticise it bcos USA exactly fails on those points? Yes no culture is immune to outside influences, everyone knows that. R u trying to say every culture is the same? If not, theres surely differences and degrees of differences between cultures. USA fails exactly on this.

Yes USA can influence the world more than other civs in the past. But I dont think that is how u would decide whether it's the most powerful in history. Otherwise many countries in the modern wold is more powerful than great Ancient empires (eg Rome) bcos they can exert more influence over other countries in the world.


As for Russia. Yes, I agree Russia is one of the greats. But I think it just misses out against the top ones such as Rome China and English. The peak of its power really didnt last as long as those three and the extent of its power and influence also relatively less. Australia really shouldnt be mentioned. It's contribution to world history is really minimal that it cannot be compared to great empires in the slightest.

[ginzuishou]

I agree with Molly Bloom’s assessment of the US; similarly while the US is powerful in today’s standards, we have to apply a contextual lens when looking back at each era in History to determine who was powerful at what point in history and why that is so for that particular time period. That’s important. So in our day and age of telecommunication’s, mass consumerism, liberal democracy, mass culture and media, technology and the ability one nation has to effect others in the world culturally and politically, the USA is the most powerful nation of our time. But, a hundred years ago they where not. The British held that position and so on and so forth.

Each period in History should have a different criterion when we’re considering who’s powerful and why that is so. We can’t apply contemporary standards to Ancient times because a lot of the technological advances of our time, which play a big role in the power and influence of civs today, didn’t exist then. A basic criteria can be constructed but each period should add specific elements that where indigenous to those times to balance the system out.

I think it’s difficult to compare the Far East (India, China, Japan, etc) and the West in Ancient and Medieval times since they didn’t have all to much contact with each other and pretty much remained active in their own spheres of influence for some time.

I guess I would like to end with a repetition of what I said before, that being that the US and other countries like Canada are examples of the world to come. The world of Postmoderninity where cultural/ethnic plurality and diversity are key in a world that’s getting smaller and smaller by the day.

[chocoballs]

I guess that would be the most powerful civ. mind you, all of america's history would fit nicely into any one dynasty of the older civs.

"on the shoulders of giants..."

Hard to find any culture that hasn't heard of Madonna or Jordan or Coca Cola or McDonalds.


but the English planted the seed in the beginning. but what about the Celts?

[Serb]

As for Russia. Yes, I agree Russia is one of the greats. But I think it just misses out against the top ones such as Rome China and English. The peak of its power really didnt last as long as those three and the extent of its power and influence also relatively less.

If our influence is so small, then why you are in China still using communism as form of goverment?
How can it happens that so old and wise China once was penatrated by our socialist ideas and become a communist country?