Strategy that "feels too good"

Jason · November 9, 2001, 23:49

I'm a little concerned that the "advisor" on the diplomacy screen is a little "too" useful. His little "we're getting close to a deal here" comments mean that you can always fine-tune any diplomatic agreement to the best possible before you propose it; which means if you get into the tech-selling business you can always eke the last penny out of them to keep your research machine flying.

It's very satisfying having every civilization in the world except the 3 poorest ones giving me 12-30 per turn each, like a bunch of tributaries, it feels a little artificial.

Granted, if it wasn't for this system I wouldn't be ahead in tech at all; I have 5 of 76 cities on the map or so last time I tried to count. Darn geography

AuraSeer · November 10, 2001, 00:07

Yeah, I want a way to turn off the advisors, or at least prevent them from popping up unless I ask for them. Having them display automatically not only feels like cheating, it reminds me of that horrid evil paper clip from MS Office. ::shudder::

dexters · November 10, 2001, 00:18

I'm not sure what planet you guys are from, but try playing without an advisor and be frustrated with taking ten minutes to figure out what the rival civs want. Not to mention you'll cheat yourself out of getting the best deal possible in a trade.

Taking the advice of the advisors isn't cheating, that's what they are there for. i'd be more worried about the use of sav files to immediately restart a game after you had your ass kicked by the AI. but i wouldn't want it any other way ;-)

kalishatra · November 10, 2001, 03:48

actually, the closer to the bone you cut the deals the more irritated the AI civs become. So its not totally one-sided. I now occassionally give substantial gifts if I feel the overall diplomatic tide is against me.

Jason · November 10, 2001, 16:17

Not so I've noticed actually. I've been swindling the English and Germans from the Ancient era to the industrial, and they're "Gracious" now.

My point is, the player should only have a rough idea of what the computer will accept. As it goes right now, every time I sell a tech to the computer I get the exact max gold per turn, the exact max lump sum (often their whole treasury) and all of their maps. I keep them in a state of destitution and make half my cash from foreign inflow.

The little advisor means if you want to waste a minute or two on the diplomacy screen you can always get precisely the best deal. If that is the case, why bother making us waste time figuring it out?

Any game that involves "haggling" for a trade has a feature that limits your number of offers so that you can't rip the computer off.

I know you could argue that if I feel this way, I could just make worse deals with the computer, but I don't like to have to "cripple" myself as a player purely for design reasons.

Edit: Just as an example, in the game I'm playing, my French Republic has 5 cities, compared to a little over 70 cities on the entire map. The world is at peace and has been for a few years. And yet I have a tech edge on everyone, including a 3 tech edge on the largest empire. My treasury is ~2000, whereas the tech deals I've been making (31 per turn from the Persians for example) keep everyone else with virtually no treasury at all. Yes, it's fun, yes I'm glad I'm winning, but I know I shouldn't be.

I can pay precisely the lowest amount in cash for a tech, every time. I can sell every tech, map, luxury, resource for the absolute highest amount. All without ever offending anyone. Why include the possibility of "insulting" an AI with a bad deal if you always know in advance that the deal will be insulting? (Well, ok, if you want to make them hate you for some reason, but that's a stretch.)

Shadowstrike · November 10, 2001, 17:05

Its even better when you're peddling luxuries. I was getting 15 - 20 gold per turn, per luxury! I was getting like 200 gold from each of the other 3 civs, and by hiking the prices every 20 turns (with lump sums thrown it, I was practically buying anything and everything from tanks to cultural improvements.

barefootbadass · November 10, 2001, 22:32

I have sometimes managed to get slightly better deals than the advisor says they will accept. You do have to do some actual bargaining in the neighborhood that he says your are getting closer to do this, but the benefits are rather minimal, esp. with the risk of offending them.

Diety · November 11, 2001, 10:54

I think the foreign advisor is a very well coded and nifty utility. The only negative thing about it, is that there should be a option to turn him off, for the masochistics players among us

SirSebastian · November 12, 2001, 17:48

He needs to be about 10% to 20% less accurate.

Blunderdog · November 12, 2001, 18:12

If you think he's too helpful, just do what I'm sure the rest of us do with the science advisor: Ignore him!

Jason · November 12, 2001, 20:36

You want to make the best deal possible given your information; right now, that's too good a deal. I'm not going to play with a hand tied behind my back. At regent level at least, the 100 percent research and tech-selling tactic is extremely powerful. Get a tech, sell it to every other civ in the game for a huge amount per turn, research a new tech while their tribute makes you rich. Now, it may be that I'll need this just to stay alive when I get to Emperor, but it's still funny.

In almost all games where haggling deals is involved, there is a feature where if you make too many guesses trying to find the perfect price, you get booted from the trade. In this one the price can be (more or less) perfectly determined every time in advance.

If this is what is intended, why not simply have a button that will sell the tech for the highest possible amount per turn? Rather than click around for 45 seconds... "45 per turn, doubtful. 30 per turn, getting closer. 25 per turn, acceptable. 28 per turn, acceptable. 29 per turn, getting close, 28 per turn, acceptable. Deal." Sound familiar?

Barchan · November 13, 2001, 06:43

All too familiar, in fact! Problem is, when you ask the AI what *they* think would be a good deal, it bears no resemblance whatsoever to what *you* think would be a good deal. But, hey, that's commerce for ya....

Skeeve · November 13, 2001, 10:23

Has anyone tried deity yet?

I haven't, but I believe that you will need to rely very heavily on the foreign advisor to get the very best deal possible in any situation.

Since the computer already has a huge advantage on that level, you need to reclaim as much of the advantage as possible. I imagine this would include saving your game before entering a thatched village, and reloading if you didn't like what you got. (Not that I do that!) WEll... maybe on the 2 hardest levels.

- Skeeve

SlightlyMadman · November 13, 2001, 12:22

I absolutely agree that the advisor is a terrible design choice. The current system rewards annoying repetetive tasks, which only pisses people off.

If he's going to tell you the best deal one way or another, there should be some sort of automation. Something like the "What do you want for this," but that's perfectly balanced. The other option would be to do away with his input, and make you haggle. The process would go like this:

- I want Polytheism, so I click on it.
- I ask him what he wants for it, he it populates 200 gold on my side.
- I drop it to 100, then click "offer"
- He says "Are you trying to offend me?"
- I raise it to 150, then offer.
- He says "That's looking close to a deal."
- I raise it to 175, then offer.
- He accepts.

If I had only raised it to 160, he still would not have accepted, and my standing with him would be slightly damaged. I could bargain for it again, but his "sweet spot" would be slightly higher.

If I had offered him 250, he would have accepted, and my standing with him would be increased.

This may still be repeteive, but not annoying. The risk involved makes it a game in itself, and rewards good haggling skills. When you've gotten used to systems like this in games, you get a good "feel" for how much to increase, and an experienced player will get the best deal most of the time.

Reward the player's skill, not how much free time he's got!

smellymummy · November 13, 2001, 12:30

i don't think the constant changing of an offer goes unnoticed by the AI. Perhaps it's just my imagination but eventually all of the other civs know your reputation of a "haggler" and in the long run it hurts your diplomacy. Notice that each time you change your offer you can hear the little drum sound.

sure it might not matter if your raking in 500 gold per turn, but you need to watch out that they (the other civs) don't ally against you and go to war. After a while your insane offers will get to them and then the other world leaders just crack! Then there goes your 500 per turn (which drops to negative 50 per turn) and you have to scramble to keep your treasury with money.

Jason · November 13, 2001, 13:16

No, as long as you don't actually make the offer, it has no impact at all with your relations. I was taking away basically the whole income of the Germans and English since the ancient era and they both popped up to "gracious" with me eventually. Till I conquered the English, heh.

Slightly Madman has the "normal" system that we're all used to in any game that invovles trading. I think that's what this is supposed to be, but the trade advisor means that you never have to make an offer and risk rejection, or the price going up as a punishment.

To be honest I hate that kind of thing, and I'll be screwed out of my current "rob em blind while you research 100%" strategy, but right not I sort of feel like I have "trading cheat mode" on.

And before someone says "then ignore the trading dude," I can't. If it's there, I'll use it, I'm competitive. As for on deity, it may well be the only way to stay afloat, but you shouldn't have to exploit poor design to stay in business.

Lynx4Ben · November 13, 2001, 14:08

It would be helpfull if there was more of a consequence for ripping people off. And if the advisor wasn't as accurate. BUT HE DOESN'T TELL YOU EVERYTHING. For instance he tells you what the other guy is willing to pay, but he isn't telling you if YOU are getting ripped off. Manytimes you get the best deal, but in the end it is still a crappy one. For instance i was trading some luxuries to the persians and they wanted a extrodernary amount. Being my first game I gave it to them not realizing I was being ripped off. I then gave the same offer to anouther tribe who gave me a MUCH BETTER DEAL.

Blaupanzer · November 13, 2001, 17:27

If you do trigger their temper, they go to war. I like the trade advice, but he only tells you about their side of the deal. Unique luxuries are very valuable in the game as a main source of happiness, for example. Money is not as key, although very useful. On the higher levels, the AIs insult more easily, get impatient while you cycle with your advisor, and ally against you when war comes.

Jaybe · November 13, 2001, 17:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Lynx4Ben
... For instance i was trading some luxuries to the persians and they wanted a extrodernary amount. Being my first game I gave it to them not realizing I was being ripped off. I then gave the same offer to anouther tribe who gave me a MUCH BETTER DEAL.

The situation of the other civ was probably different compared to the 1st civ who 'ripped you off.' What is a 'fair' price depends on the individual civ.

Jason · November 14, 2001, 05:47

I don't see how the trade advisor didn't warn you anyway. If you get "that will be acceptable," it means "keep going higher till I don't say this anymore"

hectordogg · November 15, 2001, 00:27

I've found that if you follow the trade advisor's recommendations to get the best deal you get a reputation as the driver of a hard bargain, regardless of whether you actually make the offer. After a few good trades, every civ on the map starts saying things like, "I hear you drive a hard bargain, but let's see what we can work out." On the assumption that this isn't merely a random detail added in, it can safely be assumed that getting good deals has diplomatic consequences. This certainly seems to be the case for me. I've been getting great deals my entire game, and the only civs that like me are the ones I give gifts to.