Privateers, good idea, poor execution

Genghis John · November 12, 2001, 02:29

I was jazzed when I first read about privateers, so you could attack enemy shipping and not have to pay the consequences.

This seemed to me to be the perfect stupid AI mop-up tool. You know, they keep sending ships into (or near) your territory, no matter how many times they agree to get out. Plus borders over water seem pretty useless anyway.

Privateers would be an excellent way of protecting the integrity of your empire, without having to risk war over that one galley that you just know has a settler on it heading for "your" continent.

The problem is I have never had a privateer win any fight with any other naval unit. Galleons, transports, and galleys can kick my ass.

Anyone else have this problem?

smellymummy · November 12, 2001, 02:32

privateers are very weak. look at the stats! You need to make a swarm of them and use them in numbers to be anything close to effective. by the time you do build many though they are useless.

Dis · November 12, 2001, 02:49

if I'm not mistaken the attack rating is 1. I laughed when i saw that. never built one. maybe an attack rating of 2 would be good and not too overpowering. might be worth a shot.

Grim Legacy · November 12, 2001, 06:04

Yeah they seemed so weak to me that I never bothered. Especially since the Frigates, Man-O-War's and Galleon are abundant by the time you get them. I think they were Att. 2 before, but firaxis changed it at the last moment... perhaps 2 is too strong after all.

I don't agree with the uselessness of naval borders, though: they are respected by the AI and serve as a pleasant shield from coast-roaming vessels that slow down the game and look like they may spawn an invasion at any given moment.
The AI naval borders are nice too: makes exploring more difficult ("get out") and also heightens the value of the enemy territory map.

SirSebastian · November 12, 2001, 13:19

I actually _tried_ Privateers... and the attack seems like more than 1 to me. They are not pointless! I probably just got lucky, and you probably just got unlucky. Remember.. at least you don't have those nasty terrain modifiers to deal with

The Eliminator · November 12, 2001, 13:34

The privateers in Colonization ruled, and when I heard that they were incorporated into Civ3 I was thrilled. However, after my first game and 5 of my vetran pirates were wiped out by a single Greek galley......talk about useles.

This is when I miss the Civ2 text files, it would be so nice to bump privateers up to 2 or 3 attack.

Venger · November 12, 2001, 14:23

Privateers are a KICK A$$ concept. Just done as poorly as possible though...

First...I was hoping the Privateers would actually have a special power...like being able to capture ships, capture cargo (enslave units on board as workers), etc. But NO...

Instead, we get a unit that couldn't sink an inflatable dingy.

Oh, and you can use the Civ3 editor to increase the attack strength of the privateer to 2. I already did that. But I won't use them. They just suck too much. I'd rather build a frigate.

Now if they gave them REAL privateer abilities...

Venger

Trifna · November 12, 2001, 15:32

Privateers are pirates working for the government (officially or not).

Like it was the case against Spain or Portuguese with their full of gold galleleons.
So I guess privateers should be adapted to when they are meant to be used... Or why would some pirates attack with an inferior technology if they were of the same time?

As I know, they built fast little boats that were faster than galleys ans such (which were so charged that they were seriously slow). So they could go next to it and attack.

Kc7mxo · November 12, 2001, 16:58

What I hate most about privateers is that %#&%# governor builds them in any port city when i'm not looking.

What I like about privateers? um. . . . . . they would sink easy if the ai was stupid enough to make them? hmmm . . .. they disband really easy?

What firaxis should have done, is make it possible for you to build a privateer type of several differnet ships. so you could have privateer destroyers, privateer frigates. . . that sorta thing. just make them cost a LOT more. This would have been useful

so many possibilities. well, maybe they'll be fixed after we'red done beta testing.

Venger · November 12, 2001, 17:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Kc7mxo
What I hate most about privateers is that %#&%# governor builds them in any port city when i'm not looking.

NO ****!!! Everytime I crank out an Ironclad, the governor decides a privateer and it's one attack strength would be useful. Geez... again, obviously not playtested...

Quote:

What firaxis should have done, is make it possible for you to build a privateer type of several differnet ships. so you could have privateer destroyers, privateer frigates. . . that sorta thing. just make them cost a LOT more. This would have been useful

Only up to the frigate era - you may argue ironclads with me, but either way, privateering went away with the advent of the frigate. After this, the world was too small for countries to get away with Letters of Marque and privateers. Piracy was dead... but until then, I like your idea - trireme's, galleons, frigates, etc. For an extra, what, 20 shields, you can create it as a privateer which can capture units and ships. I like it!

Quote:

so many possibilities. well, maybe they'll be fixed after we'red done beta testing.

He he... I hope so. But something like this may require too much of a rework. God I need about $500k to publish my own game...

Venger

player1 · November 12, 2001, 18:31

Since Privateers are normaly more powerful then Caravels,
they Should have stats of 2/1/4, and Caravel should have defense of 1.

That way Privateer could easly destroy Galleys & Caravels, but it would be tough to attack Galleons & Frigates.
Also if Frigates attacks Privatter, guess who wins?

Venger · November 12, 2001, 19:36

Quote:

Originally posted by player1
Since Privateers are normaly more powerful then Caravels,
they Should have stats of 2/1/4, and Caravel should have defense of 1.

That way Privateer could easly destroy Galleys & Caravels, but it would be tough to attack Galleons & Frigates.
Also if Frigates attacks Privatter, guess who wins?

Actually, galleys were often HEAVILY cannoned. So I don't mind that the galley has a 2 defense to fight a 2 offense (modified) privateer. Of course, if the combat system worked better, the good strategy would be to pick off some ships with a privateer to become elite then tackle ships with whom you are evenly matched, that way the expertise bonus worked in your favor... you'd take some damage but win the day.

Venger
P.S. I still want a capture unit option on privateers...

player1 · November 13, 2001, 01:51

GALEONS not GALLEYS, galleys were the first ship in this game 1/1/3, right. Anyway I only said that Caravel should have defense of 1, since it's not in any way superiour to Privateer.

Badtz Maru · November 13, 2001, 04:43

You need to remember that a unit in this game does not represent one ship, airplane, horseman, whatever - it's a group of said unit type, in some cases it probably represents a variety of forces - an infantry unit probably has some jeeps and supply trucks with it, along with medics, mortar, etc. A battleship unit probably represents a battleship and some smaller support vessels.

Privateers did not go around in large fleets like more organized military vessels. The best way of looking at it is to see the privateer unit as a small group of ships appropriate for the tech level at which you can build it, while a galleon unit is a larger fleet of galleons, along with smaller support ships. That would explain why the pirates are so much weaker than the military vessels, and why pirates in real life avoided military fleets and concentrated on isolated vessels.

I think the best use of pirates would be to blockade a port. Let's say an enemy civilization has gained access to a strategic resource via a city that is separated from the rest of it's empire (like the various European colonies in the New World). It's only connection to the distribution network is via it's harbor. You want to cut them off but you don't want a war with the civilization, which perhaps is on the same continent as yourself. What you would do is produce some privateers and send them to harass the opposition's shipping, just like various nations did throughout history. They did not use privateers to attack the enemies naval forces, they went after cargo vessels. Since the game model doesn't use actual caravan-type units to handle trade, it is assumed that there is a constant flow of cargo ships travelling between your harbors and the harassment is modeled by blockading ports with privateers. Once your opponent responds by sending it's navy the privateers will have to leave or be defeated, but when the military presence leaves they can come back.

player1 · November 13, 2001, 07:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Badtz Maru
You need to remember that a unit in this game does not represent one ship, airplane, horseman, whatever - it's a group of said unit type, in some cases it probably represents a variety of forces - an infantry unit probably has some jeeps and supply trucks with it, along with medics, mortar, etc. A battleship unit probably represents a battleship and some smaller support vessels.

Privateers did not go around in large fleets like more organized military vessels. The best way of looking at it is to see the privateer unit as a small group of ships appropriate for the tech level at which you can build it, while a galleon unit is a larger fleet of galleons, along with smaller support ships. That would explain why the pirates are so much weaker than the military vessels, and why pirates in real life avoided military fleets and concentrated on isolated vessels.

If you look from that piont of view, then Privateer cost should be 20, not 60 shields.

P.S.
One HINT: Firaxis said that they will look that Privateer problem.

Wexu · November 13, 2001, 09:57

I think privateers should "steal" couple of gold coins from enemy's treasury every time they sink a enemy ship.

Wulfram · November 13, 2001, 11:03

The problem with Privateers is that they should be there for preying on commercial shipping and Commercial shipping isn't represented in the game. The Privateer should enable you to steal Luxuries going between cities by sea perhaps?

Nodens · November 13, 2001, 12:09

Has anyone seen an AI opponent crank out a privateer? I was thinking about cranking up the strength of the unit with CivEdit myself, but then thought it wouldn't be "fair" to do so if the AI never produced them.

And a capture option would be great for privateers! Or how about allowing them to effecively "disband" a defeated enemy ship and send the resulting shileds to your nearest city?

MrBlud · November 13, 2001, 14:12

I love how trade is set up in Civ3, unfortunatly this totally destroyed what the Privateers needed to actually be functional. The only way I could see them being useful would be if you have them in front of an enemy harbor they would siphon off like 2 gold per turn or something.

Zurai001 · November 13, 2001, 16:06

Personally I made Privateers a 3/1/4, and gave Subs the privateer ability. After all, they don't exactly fly a flag, and the primary use for them in WW2 was to destroy shipping. I also boosted the sub's attack way up to give it a decent chance to sink anything if it attacked first - which is realistic. They still have their cruddy defense though.

The Eliminator · November 13, 2001, 17:20

Privateers should be based on the Colonization model, just like Venger mentioned, you should capture cargo, and have the option to take the ship or burn it. Just like good 'ol Sir Francis Drake and the Brits did. If there is workers or settlers, you get them, if there is units, they are 'executed' or taken as slaves. I really liked MrBlud's idea about the gold. Get some gold if you burn the ship, or the ship if you choose not to destroy it.

Drake's forces ware a major reason why the Portugese, and especially the Spanish couldn't cut the mustard in the mid Atlantic. The ships should have a decent attack, and a good defence - they were fast, highly manoeuverable, and heavily armed smaller ships, who more often than not traveled in loose wolf packs.

As Venger said, "a KICK A$$ concept. Just done as poorly as possible."

The Eliminator · November 13, 2001, 17:23

Cool idea about the subs Zurai001, but it lacks in realism. If there were subs out preying on shipping nowadays, everyone would know that it was either the British or the Yanks! No one else has subs; well, Canada has one, and the Russians...well......glub-glub.

Wolfshanze · November 13, 2001, 19:16

Okay folks... I addressed the naval issue in the Fascist Patch.

The problem with just bumping up the Privateer to a "2" attack strength is that it becomes as powerful as a Frigate, which isn't right at all... futhermore, most of the "Age of Sail" units are a little funny anyways, so a total revamp of the naval units needed to be done.

I kept everything in perspective, so you won't find odd things (like a Galley sinking a Frigate), everything works the way it should... a Privateer, can sink most transport/early type ships with ease, such as Galleys and Caravels, but will have a hard time against Galleons, and especially Frigates.

Check out version 1.2 of the Fascist Patch in the files section... oh, and of course the government type of Fascism becomes available too!

Zurai001 · November 13, 2001, 20:48

Actually, most countries that have a modern navy have subs. Mostly though I gave them the hidden nationality flag not for historically accurate reasons but to close some upgrade chains. Basically I went through and made it so that, resources aside, it's impossible to have ancient units in the modern era. Longbowmen upgrade to riflemen, swordsmen upgrade to knights, cavalry to tanks. The ships follow a logical upgrade path, in power terms. And the privateer upgrades to the attack sub.

For those interested, I modified the ships' stats to make them more useful...

Frigates are 3(2)/3/4
Ironclads are 5(4)/5/4
Submarines I classified as attack subs... 16/4/4
Yes, a modern sub can easily take out any surface ship, if it's the attacker.
Nuke subs are 10/4/3, and can carry 4 missiles
Privateers are 3/2/3
Man-O-Wars are 4(3)/3/4

I also changed Cruise Missiles into air units with the Tactical Missile flag, so they can be carried on subs. They have a range of 4 and can only bombard, after which they blow up. I havn't managed to get to the modern era to test that out, so it's still subject to change.

Venger · November 13, 2001, 21:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Wexu
I think privateers should "steal" couple of gold coins from enemy's treasury every time they sink a enemy ship.

Oohh!! Good idea! Maybe only 1 or 2 - gold is hard to come by in the early game - but that makes the war against piracy very real, kinda like it really was!

Good idea!

Venger