Exciting changes in "THE BALANCER" mod

[monkspider]

Hi there,
I'm the author of the "The BALANCER" mod, hosted here at apolyton, which I'm pleased to say has just recently reached version 1.3. I feel that my mod offers perhaps the most excting changes of any mod yet, and I know that a lot of you "General" forum guys, don't get around to looking at the files forum very often, so I figure it wouldn't harm to give you a brief lowdown of some of the changes my mod has to offer.

NOTE! If you have downloaded version 1.3 or 1.31 there was a bug that caused your game to crash if you built Squatter units. That has been quickly addressed in version 1.32, please download it if you have one of the previous versions. I appologize for any inconveinance.

--- Improves the much maligned Expansionist civs by adding a new unit, the Squatter.
The Squatter is a slightly-cheaper version of the settler with an extra movement point.
This should give expansionist civs a much-needed ability to expand.

---adds government specific wonders for the three most advanced forms of government, these wonders are powerful but also very
expensive and limited to being built by certain governments

-Statue of Liberty, limited only to Democracy, decrease war weariness, when used in conjunction
with Universal suffrage it can make Democracy a powerful military machine

-Universal Equality- Gain any two advances owned by any other governemnt, limited only to
Communism. Useful to gain ground on the scientifically advanced Democratic nations. Lasts until discovery of space flight.

-Reichstag- Allows Fascist governments to build armies in ANY city.
This gives the Fascist government that some complained of being
too weak a considerable advantage.

---There are two new Modern-Age Wonders, due to complaints of there being too few in that
period
-Dinosaur Park-Available with Genetics, this wonder increases tax, science, and luxory output
by 50%
-Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band- Available with Ecology, This wonder simply produces 25 culture a turn.

-increased number of missiles the Nuclear submarine can carry to 3.
-cheaper nuclear weapons
-Adds a new government, Facisim. A great war-time government
-added Rommel to list of German leaders and Montgomery to list of British leaders
-Catapult bombard strength upgraded to 6
-Cannon bombard strength upgraded to 9 and rate of fire to 2
-Babylonian Bowman upgraded to 2-1-2 rather then 2-2-1
-Clearing jungles now takes less time
-tweaked Communism a bit to fit well between Democracy and Fascism
-Gave Police Stations the ability to quell corruption like Courthouses. Increased their cost to 120 shields, and maintance costs to 3 gold per turn.
-Man o War upgraded to 4-3-4
-The chance for Air Superiority interception is increased to 65%, even though this feature seems to be broken at this time.
-Great Lighthouse upgraded to having 5 culture each turn
-The Great Wall now reduces corruption and gives 4 culture each turn
-Magellan's Voyage now also gives a free harbor to all cities on the same continent, along with the normal +1 movement bonus to all naval vessels. Cost was increased to 600 shields.
-Shakespeare's theatre upgraded greatly by now giving 12 culture each turn, rather than 6
-The UN gives a Collossus like trade bonus in every tile, due to the unpopularity of the diplomatic victory
-Cure for Cancer and Longevity each upgraded to giving 10 culture each turn, due to complaints of their
ineffectiveness in coming so late in the game
-Artillery upgraded to bombard strength 14
-Changed harvested-forest bonus shields from 10 up to 20. This is a good way to boost production in ancient times, and also in the later 'post replaceable parts' era via deforestation. Very advantagious to Industrial civs.
-Changed Wealth shields-to-gold ratio down to 4:1 from the default 8:1.
-Army Corps of Engineers: Infantry and Mechanized Infantry can perform the Build Forstress, Build Road, and Clear Forest/Jungle commands.
-All civs now get the corresponding regular units to their unique units.
-Radar Artillery has 18 bombard; 2 range; and 3 rate of fire. This change (I find these upgraded artillery stats to be much more balanced than the default ones)
-Cruise Missile now has a bombard range of 6 instead of 2.
-Transport can now only carry only 6 units.
-Submarine now attacks at 8 instead of 4.
--AEGIS Cruiser has the same bombarding attack strength as the destroyer: 2.
-Nuclear Submarine has the same attack and defense as the modded submarine (8A.4D), but now moves at 4. Even the civilopedia stated that the n-subs were supposed to be faster.
-Fighter now has a bombard strength of 4.
-Jet Fighter and F-15 have their bombard strength increased to 8.
-Stealth Fighter can now initiate the Interception command. Its stats are: 8A.6D and operational range of 7. Bombard is 8 with a rate of fire of 2.
-The Chinese Rider UU no longer has ZoC
-Mounted Warrior also has no ZoC; for the same reasons stated for the Rider and Horseman units.
-Privateers have an attack of 2, defense of 1, and move at 4. This makes them a decent investment for their time.
-Destroyers upgraded to 14 attack
-Battleships upgraded to 20 attack

You can get my mod here http://www.geocities.com/monkspider/BALANCER132.zip
If you have trouble downloading, try right-clicking and saving target as.

[Venger]

Alot of work and thought by you, good job monk. Some notes:

I hope you upgraded the ironclad to 5/5 if you upgraded the Man O War. The Man O War was a good ship, but still no real match for an ironclad.

I'd leave the 10 shield for forest bonus alone, 20 sheilds would seem to breed gardeners...

I'd make a special combat engineer unit to build fortresses and such, giving that to normal infantry unbalances those units quite a bit, and I'm not sure the AI would use htm right. I'm thinking of a 6/6/2 unit that could build fortresses and also be used for advance area pillaging. What do you think?

Rename radar artillery to rocket artillery. Talk about a gay name...

Maybe make the galleon transportable for 5 units so they can carry armies...until they fix adding/removing units from armies...

Good overall job monk, you clearly have a good grasp on the flavor that we savor...

Venger

[Altuar]

slightly ot but I renamed the radar arty to MRLS

[Venger]

Originally posted by Altuar
slightly ot but I renamed the radar arty to MRLS

I hope you meant MLRS!

In my unreleased Civ2 mod pack I created rocket artillery...and the picture was an MLRS. I also had a cool custom sound effect of an MLRS launch followed by an ADM hit (cluster bombs)...not as cool though as my Siege Mech or A-10 Thunderbolt unit sounds, again with real A-10 engine sounds...

Wanna hear it?

Venger

[monkspider]

Wow, good suggestions Venger. You can definitely expet to see many of your suggestions implemented into the next update. I still feel that giving 20 shields for forests seems a bit more fair for completely removing a forest from the face of the earth forever. But if there are numerous complaints I'll defintely change it back.

[Altuar]

Originally posted by Venger
I hope you meant MLRS!

In my unreleased Civ2 mod pack I created rocket artillery...and the picture was an MLRS. I also had a cool custom sound effect of an MLRS launch followed by an ADM hit (cluster bombs)...not as cool though as my Siege Mech or A-10 Thunderbolt unit sounds, again with real A-10 engine sounds...

Wanna hear it?

Venger

Erm, no, I meant MRLS. Multiple Rocket Lauching System.

About the mod/sound, sounds neat... the effect in Civ III is a bit weak, perhaps you could try importing it?

Edit: I checked. Both MRLS and MLRS is used. (Multiple-Launch Rocket System)

[Sevorak]

Altuar,

I believe the acronym really is MLRS - Multiple Launch Rocket System.

Learn more about it here.

-Sev

[Simpleton]

A mod already. Shoot! I haven't even mastered the unmodded version of the game yet! I haven't run into any problems that this mod addresses...yet...so I won't downloadit. But good job anyway.

[monkspider]

NOTE! If you downloaded version 1.3 or 1.31 there was a bug that may have caused your game to crash if you built squatter units, this has been fixed in the latest version, 1.32. Please download it here
http://www.geocities.com/monkspider/BALANCER132.zip
I appologize for the inconveinance.

[Jahi]

i really like the mod except for the two modern wonders, is there any way i can disable them in my game?

[ElitePersian]

This is a really great mod, but how is the AI gonna implement these changes in the game? will it cause unbalance because the AI wont know that these units have upgraded attack, and will treat them as low-attack units?

for example will the AI use the privateer more often now that it has been upgraded? what about catapult?

will the AI actually switch to fascism when he is at war? will he use the army a lot to take advantage of fascism?

will the AI know that he should build Statue of Liberty and Universal Suffrage together?

will the AI clear jungles more often?

will the AI know police stations can reduce corruption further and build them more often(especially in further cities)?

will the AI actually use n-subs to carry 3 nukes instead of 1?

will the AI know that ZOC has been taken away from some units, causing him to use those units differently?

I think i gave enough examples, basically what im saying is that if the AI doesnt recognize these changes, it will UNBALANCE the game more. If these changes are only beneficial to the player, then it will unbalance the game.

[Jack_www]

I would just like to point out something. Stealth Fighters are bombers not meant to intercept other aircarft. All they carry are bombs and really on their stealth tech to avoid being dected by other jet aircraft as their only defense. So I dont know why you made Stealth Fighters have the ability to use the interception command when they cannot intercept other aircaft in real life.

[monkspider]

Great questions persian!
for example will the AI use the privateer more often now that it has been upgraded? what about catapult?
-That's a tough one, I am unsure of exact AI building ratios of certain things, but I would think so, even if slightly, based on my knowlege of how the AI in this game was created.

will the AI actually switch to fascism when he is at war? will he use the army a lot to take advantage of fascism?
-Yep, definitely, when an AI is at war a lot in the late game he is almost always in Fascism.

will the AI know that he should build Statue of Liberty and Universal Suffrage together?
-Yes, in the game I am playing as the Russians France has started construction on both of them. So I think that should put the question to rest.

will the AI clear jungles more often?
-This I am unclear on, I would imagine so, even if slightly. Even if they would attempt to clear the same number, they would clear them faster, thus giving them time to clear more jungles.

will the AI know police stations can reduce corruption further and build them more often(especially in further cities)?
-I can't say for sure, this is a question I can look into by investigating AI cities, but I would almost undoubtedly say yes.

will the AI actually use n-subs to carry 3 nukes instead of 1?
-Another good question I am unclear on, but I would say almost certainly so, simply due to the flexible nature of the AI.

will the AI know that ZOC has been taken away from some units, causing him to use those units differently?
-Probably, I'm not sure how the AI uses ZOC units as compared to non-ZOC units, but I would imagine so.

I think i gave enough examples, basically what im saying is that if the AI doesnt recognize these changes, it will UNBALANCE the game more. If these changes are only beneficial to the player, then it will unbalance the game
-You definitely make good points, but Soren Johnson has said that the AI will be able to take advantage of virtually any player modifications. The only change in this mod that the AI is currently unable to take advantage of, as far as I know, is the ability for infantry to build fortresses and so forth.
I hope this helps!

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Jack_www
I would just like to point out something. Stealth Fighters are bombers not meant to intercept other aircarft. All they carry are bombs and really on their stealth tech to avoid being dected by other jet aircraft as their only defense. So I dont know why you made Stealth Fighters have the ability to use the interception command when they cannot intercept other aircaft in real life.

I was unaware of this fact Jack, thanks for bringing it up. But in spite of this, I think my change brings about better gameplay balance, it seems silly to have the last aircraft you gain not have the ability to intercept things. Besides, I'm sure that while it may not be their primary function, a stealth fighter could at least, theoretically have a chance to intercept other air craft.

[Elucidus]

Actually stealth fighters (F-117) cannot partake in a dogfight very well. They were designed for first sight, first shot, first kill. Which means they are supposed to be able to intercept enemy aircraft before the enemy can even detect them. If they don't, however, they are pretty much screwed.

The fact that F-117s have been used as bombers...well, lately that is mostly what F-16s and F-15s have done, as well. See Operation Allied Force. The F-22 is expanding on the whole Stealth Fighter concept, as it is designed with dogfights and stealth in mind.

Of course they don't have the F-22 in the game, they give the Americans the F-15, the fighter that quite a few nations in the world have nowadays. Given in the 70s it was unique to the US, but seeing as they included Solar Plants. I don't know, I guess they didn't want a Civ getting an end of tech tree unit all its own.

[Venger]

Originally posted by Elucidus
Of course they don't have the F-22 in the game

Which is strange, because the Civ2 Stealth Fighter was a F-22. Of course, Civ ToT was an F-117...go figure...

Venger

[monkspider]

Good info folks, i'll look at restoring the steath fighter back to it's default settings

[ElitePersian]

Originally posted by monkspider

Soren Johnson has said that the AI will be able to take advantage of virtually any player modifications.

thats really good to know, i hope its true and really does work, cause then the mod creators wont have to tweak the AI for every mod they make, it takes as lotta work off your shoulders.

However, i get the feeling that mod-creators will still have to change the AI a little bit for some mods, to get the most out of a mod. wouldnt you agree?

nice work however with the mod. how long u been playing with it so far? does it really balance the game a lot more?

[Elucidus]

Monkspider,
I think what I said was more of an arguement for having them the way you made them. Incerception means destroying the target, why should it matter if you do it through stealth or a dogfight? Just a thought.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by ElitePersian


thats really good to know, i hope its true and really does work, cause then the mod creators wont have to tweak the AI for every mod they make, it takes as lotta work off your shoulders.

However, i get the feeling that mod-creators will still have to change the AI a little bit for some mods, to get the most out of a mod. wouldnt you agree?

nice work however with the mod. how long u been playing with it so far? does it really balance the game a lot more?

Thanks for the kind words, I have been playing with it for a week and half or so now, and I think it *really* adds greatly to the game. Artillery type units are actually useful now, wonders of the world have been tweaked, governments have been tweaked, just the addition of the squatter unit for expansionist civs just makes the game Sooooo much more balanced. I have some more interesting stuff on the way for this mod, so be sure to stay tuned! Version 1.4 is going to be just as revolutionary as 1.3 was, guaranteed! And much more polished, I hope to work out some of the oddities that have appeared after more play-testing as well.

[Pyrodrew]

Good work. If I don't mention something that means I liked it or am indifferent to it.

I'd leave the 10 shield for forest bonus alone, 20 sheilds would seem to breed gardeners...

I agree & it makes the Industrious Civ Bonus (already powerful) even more powerful. Maybe have gardeners take a little longer planting forests too so original forests are more valuable & what some claim is the forest exploit won't be abused.

Originally posted by monkspider
--- Improves the much maligned Expansionist civs by adding a new unit, the Squatter. The Squatter is a slightly-cheaper version of the settler with an extra movement point.

Good idea, but couldn't you think of a better name? My dog squats when he takes a dump.
squat - v. - To sit in a crouching position with knees bent and the buttocks on or near the heels.

-Babylonian Bowman upgraded to 2-1-2 rather then 2-2-1

Again, isn't this unfair to the Egyptians? Their chariot is 2-1-2 & costs 30shlds... Bowman is 20.

-The Great Wall now reduces corruption and gives 4 culture each turn

The Great Wall did need something more, but I don't see how a wall reduces corruption.

-Army Corps of Engineers: Infantry and Mechanized Infantry can perform the Build Forstress, Build Road, and Clear Forest/Jungle commands.

A military guy even posted they cannot build roads or clear forest/jungle. I agree about the build fortress tho.

[Elucidus]

Any Ideas to improve the other useless (or near useless) civilization traits. What is militaristic? Barracks are cheaper? I don't recall, it's way past my bedtime.

[monkspider]

LOL! It is ironic Pyro, most of the changes you suggested, I already included last night while working on version 1.4


- inspite of it not seeming right to only get ten shields for the destruction of an entire forest, i will most likely revert back to the default on this one, due to it's lack of popularity

-Renamed squatter to colonist

-Babylonian bowman reverted back to default statistiscs

-The great wall still stunk even after giving it the ability to reduce corruption, so it will gain a new ability in the next update.

-The "army corp of engineer" functions have been dropped due to the AI not being able to take advantage of them

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Elucidus
Any Ideas to improve the other useless (or near useless) civilization traits. What is militaristic? Barracks are cheaper? I don't recall, it's way past my bedtime.

I have found militaristic to really be pretty good. They offer higher percentages of unit promotions and offer cheaper barracks, cheaper SAM sites, cheaper harbors, cheaper airports, and possibly another improvement or two. Expansionist was really the only ability that needed a lot help, from my experience at at least.

[Jahi]

I had a few comments about the two new wonders you added

first, civ stops short of any future techs.. even fusion power was removed from the tech list (civ 2 had it). keeping in that spirit I think the idea of a -Dinosaur Park- is a little far fetched. an alternative idea would be to (gasp, for lack of a better name) Disney land and make it a small wonder only affecting that city.

second, -Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band- . I’m not opposed to what this wonder does but its name. this may have been a cultural influence some years ago to a sizeable population in certain countries but it isn't any more. it was more a 'flash in the pan' so to speak or a cultural force that fell out of favor with the passing of time. before i get flamed on this one i mean i dont see this 100 years from now being something people learn about or even know about. some replacement ideas could be 'Broadway', the Library of Congress, the Sidney opera house, or Hollywood (I’m sure if I think about it I could come up with a few more).

everything else so far though looks really good in your mod.

[DarkMatter]

Hey Monkspider, how did you add a unit to the game? I've seen how to change certain units, but not how to add additional ones.

[Bubba_B]

Hey Monk,

Please look into upgrading the Marine units. IMHO they are pretty worthless in the current settings. Maybe some kind of special forces unit or something. I dont know..........

Just a thought.

[Deathray]

Firstly, nice job with getting a mod out so quickly. It looks interesting. Personally I find the game pretty balanced unmodded though, so I won't be downloading yours probably.

Secondly, RE the stealth fighter:
In order to reduce the radar visibility stealthed aeroplanes have lots of weird angled surfaces. This makes them absolutely horrible to fly. You will not be looping the loop or even doing a simple roll in a stealth fighter. These things even have trouble turning. Stealth fighters and bombers actually mostly fly on pre-programmed orders. The pilot's main duty is just to drop the bombs and keep everything ticking over. I'm not sure about intercepts though, to my knowledge the stealth fighter isn't actually a fighter. I suppose if the things have missiles they could just give the pilot an intercept course and he would get one attack run. If the opponent avoided those first missiles the stealth fighter would be fairly screwed though.

[Steve Clark]

My first impression just from reading the changes suggests that you are making the game easier for human players at the higher difficulty levels. For example, changing the wealth to 4:1. Now you could possible have twice as much gold as you would normally have. It is one thing to have something like to create a fun, alternate game but to suggest that it becomes more balanced or a better challenge, cannot be assumed. Only through hundreds of tests using a variety of conditions can one declare that. But that is not possible since the changes are too numerous. The proper way of doing this, as Firaxis can attest to, is to make ONE change and then play on a preset game. Then repeat with another change, and then with combination of changes. That way you can see the cause and effect of such a change or changes.

But then again, I think it comes down to what kind of civ game do you want to play. Some feel that you should be successful in all strategies or that all strategies that you choose should lead to a win. You certainly can create a mod that does that, but you have to recognize its limitations. That's why I prefer to wait to scenarios. That way the events and conditions can be more tightly controlled.

[SuiteSisterMary]

Iwon't speak as to any of the changes in this mod, but I'll throw in a suggestion and a point.

Call the squatters 'pioneers' and make the icon a 'Westward Ho!' sort of covered wagon.

And if any military unit should be able to build roads and forts, it's the Roman Legions. :-)